Help me build my undead army!


Advice


Good evening, everyone.

So, with the right combination, my level 8 NPC necromancer cleric is able to control 64 HD worth of undead via Animate Dead.

I am new with the ins and outs of optimizing an undead horde, so please help me!

More specifically, I don't know when it is better to make skeletons vs zombies.

The available creatures in this particular area are a bit limited. Humans, orcs, ogres, trolls, griffons, wyverns, and gnolls.

Any advice is appreciated.

Thanks!


Hi.. I'd direct you to check out Brewer's guide to Undeath as far as that goes. Basically for combat purposes you want high STR and DEX, special attacks such as pounce or rake translate I believe too.

For the most part you want to always make bloody skeletons in a desecrated area, because bloody skeletons regenerate unless destroyed by holy power. They protect your investment... unless the creature is very high HD, or it flies, then you want fast zombies. Normal zombies are pointless, because being constantly staggered is awful.

I'd start with some bloody ogre skeletons. Humans aren't worth bothering with in general. The griffons and wyverns would make good fast zombies (especially for a mount).

Liberty's Edge

I prefer skeletons because the DR is less common to face, everyone has a sword or claws to slash a zombie. The lack of strength hurts but I think they top out better. Stay away from humans, orcs, and other non racial HD creatures. A level 10 him fighter becomes a 1 HD undead. They lose all class levels of HD. Trolls and ogres are going to be good for the high strength and decent racial HD, a zombie wyvren is nice to have a mount (clumsy flight is better than no flight and a flying Zombie will only be hit with arrows which are piercing.

Make the important ones into bloody skeletons, they will cost more but when it comes back after being killed (again) it will be worth it.

A few orcs could be nice of you deck them out in armor and use them as literal meat shield. At 25 gold each they are cheap. Reuse the armor and they can at least absorb a few hits for you, cast gentle repose so they don't rot and make it a closed helm on full plate so no one knows what they are. They will have at least a 25 if you invest in armor(9 plate, 2 natural, 4 tower shield. (They won't be able to hit anything but they are walking shields for you)

Lastly desecrate is your best friend when making undead.


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

875gp gets you the following:

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.
.
.
Sea Serpent Fast Plague Zombie
N Colossal Undead
Init +3; Senses darkvision 120 ft., low-light vision, Perception +0
--------------------------------------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------------------------------------
AC 16, touch 5, flat-footed 13 (+3 Dex, +11 natural, –8 size)
hp 385 (35 HD)
Fort +11, Ref +14, Will +19
Immune cold, undead traits; Resist fire 30
--------------------------------------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------------------------------------
Speed 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 60 ft.
Melee bite +35 (6d8+17 plus disease and grab) and
slam +35 (3d8+17 plus disease) and
tail slap +30 (4d6+8 plus disease and grab) or
2 slams +27 (3d8+17 plus disease)
Space 30 ft.; Reach 20 ft.
Special Attacks death burst, disease (DC 27), quick strikes
--------------------------------------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------------------------------------
Abilities Str 44 (+17), Dex 16 (+3), Con –, Int –, Wis 10 (+0), Cha 10 (+0)
Base Atk +26; CMB +51 (+55 grapple); CMD 54 (can’t be tripped)
Feats Toughness (B)
Skills Perception +0, Stealth –13, Swim +25
Encumbrance light 89,472 lb., medium 178,944 lb., heavy 268,800 lb.; Weight Carried 0 lb.
--------------------------------------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------------------------------------
Death Burst (Ex) When a plague zombie dies, it explodes in a burst of decay. All creatures adjacent to the plague zombie are exposed to its plague as if struck by a slam attack and must make a Fortitude save or contract zombie rot.
Disease (Su) The slam attack—as well as any other natural attacks—of a plague zombie carries the zombie rot disease. Zombie rot: slam; save Fort DC = 10 + ½ the zombie’s Hit Dice + the zombie’s Cha modifier; onset 1d4 days; frequency 1/day; effect 1d2 Con, this damage cannot be healed while the creature is infected; cure 2 consecutive saves. Anyone who dies while infected rises as a plague zombie in 2d6 hours.
Quick Strikes (Ex) Whenever a fast zombie takes a full-attack action, it can make one additional slam attack at its highest base attack bonus (included above).

...when created by a juju oracle in a desecrated area with an alter.

Use the rest of your HD on smaller undead, then fill your zombie sea serpent with them and go adventuring with them on the high seas like it was some kind of aircraft carrier.


As a person who will soon be looking into creating my own undead, I'm wondering how you have attained that amount of controllable undead?

-Nearyn


Ravingdork wrote:

875gp gets you the following:

.
.
.
.
Sea Serpent Fast Plague Zombie
N Colossal Undead
Init +3; Senses darkvision 120 ft., low-light vision, Perception +0
--------------------------------------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------------------------------------
AC 16, touch 5, flat-footed 13 (+3 Dex, +11 natural, –8 size)
hp 385 (35 HD)
Fort +11, Ref +14, Will +19
Immune cold, undead traits; Resist fire 30
--------------------------------------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------------------------------------
Speed 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 60 ft.
Melee bite +35 (6d8+17 plus disease and grab) and
slam +35 (3d8+17 plus disease) and
tail slap +30 (4d6+8 plus disease and grab) or
2 slams +27 (3d8+17 plus disease)
Space 30 ft.; Reach 20 ft.
Special Attacks death burst, disease (DC 27), quick strikes
--------------------------------------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------------------------------------
Abilities Str 44 (+17), Dex 16 (+3), Con –, Int –, Wis 10 (+0), Cha 10 (+0)
Base Atk +26; CMB +51 (+55 grapple); CMD 54 (can’t be tripped)
Feats Toughness (B)
Skills Perception +0, Stealth –13, Swim +25
Encumbrance light 89,472 lb., medium 178,944 lb., heavy 268,800 lb.; Weight Carried 0 lb.
--------------------------------------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------------------------------------
Death Burst (Ex) When a plague zombie dies, it explodes in a burst of decay. All creatures adjacent to the plague zombie are exposed to its plague as if struck by a slam attack and must make a Fortitude save or contract zombie rot.
Disease (Su) The slam attack—as well as any other natural attacks—of a plague zombie carries the zombie rot disease. Zombie rot: slam; save Fort DC = 10 + ½ the zombie’s Hit Dice + the zombie’s Cha...

If I ever play Skull and Shackles... best pirate ship ever.


I think I'll start working on something similar for constructs. Still, I expect ravingdorks advice is the best you're going to get, he's got a couple of sweet undead-centric builds in his emporium.


I think the sea serpent might be a bit difficult to get for a lvl 8 party. Especially considering, the cleric need to be in touch range to cast animate dead before the remains fall to the bottom of the ocean.

For the fodder of your undead army, I'd suggest loads of simple 1 hd burning skeleton. Their ability to deal 1d6 to anyone adjacent to them at the start of the enemy turn, is great in great numbers (because it unlike the fiery death ability does not grant a save). So when you surround enemies without fire resistance, you force them to kill off the skeletons to avoid the damage.

Otherwise make bloody skeletons out of the strongest creatures you encounter to keep your champions alive.


I think folks have lost sight of the parameters set forth in the OP, but I do appreciate the input.

It is an NPC necromancer, therefore the selection of creatures is limited to the ones I list in the OP that are in the surrounding area.

My initial thought is one big bruiser like a Fast Wyvern Zombie (tail sting, bite w/grab, and 2 secondary wings), a pair of secondary bruisers like a couple Bloody Troll Skeletons, a group of Burning Orc Skeletons, and a squad of Human Skeleton Archers. Maybe mix in a few Human Plague Zombies for kicks.

Thoughts?


And yes, I know that the Wyvern Poison no longer works. But a tail spike hurts regardless.


Perhaps not the best buy, but I bought some dinosaur skeletons at a dollar store awhile back that are the right size for gaming.. There just something about putting the skeletal Tyrannosaurus Rex or a stegosaurus on the game map that thrills me.


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Nearyn wrote:

As a person who will soon be looking into creating my own undead, I'm wondering how you have attained that amount of controllable undead?

-Nearyn

Certainly.

Cleric Level 8.

Undead Master (Add 4 Effective Caster Level, hereafter known as ECL)

Cast Deathknell (Add 1 ECL, lasts 10 minutes/HD of the creature killed)

Cast Deathwine (Add 3 ECL, using a Potion of Cure Serious Wounds)

That makes your ECL 16

Cast Desecrate on the area.

Cast Animate Dead (Normally 2 HD/caster level but on Desecrated ground it is 4HD/caster level. 4x16=64.

There are also a number of other ways to increase your ECL such as Mage's Tattoo (+1 ECL), Spell Specialization (+2 ECL), the Karma Bead from a Strand of Prayer Beads (+4 ECL for 10 minutes), and I am sure there are other ways out there if you dredge the depths of the internet.

But a modest build at level 8 will get you 64.

Dark Archive

Kryptik wrote:
Nearyn wrote:

As a person who will soon be looking into creating my own undead, I'm wondering how you have attained that amount of controllable undead?

-Nearyn

Certainly.

Cleric Level 8.

Undead Master (Add 4 Effective Caster Level, hereafter known as ECL)

Cast Deathknell (Add 1 ECL, lasts 10 minutes/HD of the creature killed)

Cast Deathwine (Add 3 ECL, using a Potion of Cure Serious Wounds)

That makes your ECL 16

Cast Desecrate on the area.

Cast Animate Dead (Normally 2 HD/caster level but on Desecrated ground it is 4HD/caster level. 4x16=64.

There are also a number of other ways to increase your ECL such as Mage's Tattoo (+1 ECL), Spell Specialization (+2 ECL), the Karma Bead from a Strand of Prayer Beads (+4 ECL for 10 minutes), and I am sure there are other ways out there if you dredge the depths of the internet.

But a modest build at level 8 will get you 64.

Yeah, that will let you ANIMATE that many undead but it won't let you control that many. Once your ECL drops back down to normal you'll be limited to controlling 48 hd worth with the rest becoming uncontrolled.

What are you going to do to keep control of the other 16HD of undead?


Mathwei ap Niall wrote:
Kryptik wrote:
Nearyn wrote:

As a person who will soon be looking into creating my own undead, I'm wondering how you have attained that amount of controllable undead?

-Nearyn

Certainly.

Cleric Level 8.

Undead Master (Add 4 Effective Caster Level, hereafter known as ECL)

Cast Deathknell (Add 1 ECL, lasts 10 minutes/HD of the creature killed)

Cast Deathwine (Add 3 ECL, using a Potion of Cure Serious Wounds)

That makes your ECL 16

Cast Desecrate on the area.

Cast Animate Dead (Normally 2 HD/caster level but on Desecrated ground it is 4HD/caster level. 4x16=64.

There are also a number of other ways to increase your ECL such as Mage's Tattoo (+1 ECL), Spell Specialization (+2 ECL), the Karma Bead from a Strand of Prayer Beads (+4 ECL for 10 minutes), and I am sure there are other ways out there if you dredge the depths of the internet.

But a modest build at level 8 will get you 64.

Yeah, that will let you ANIMATE that many undead but it won't let you control that many. Once your ECL drops back down to normal you'll be limited to controlling 48 hd worth with the rest becoming uncontrolled.

What are you going to do to keep control of the other 16HD of undead?

If you don't care too much about collateral damage you could do the good ol' Plague Zombie trick.

Get a big cage, put some plague zombies in there, then whenever you beat someone just tie 'em up and toss 'em in the zombie pit. Plague zombies kill 'em, they rise as plague zombies themselves, and the whole process doesn't cost you anything except the onyx stones for the original couple zombies. Then you just use Command Undead to cut a couple of them out of the herd whenever you want some minions.

Or, when you've got adventurers on your doorstep, you unleash the horde. Sure, you aren't controlling them, but they'll eat the adventurers anyway.


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Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


Yeah, that will let you ANIMATE that many undead but it won't let you control that many. Once your ECL drops back down to normal you'll be limited to controlling 48 hd worth with the rest becoming uncontrolled.

What are you going to do to keep control of the other 16HD of undead?

The spell does say that the undead created remain under your control indefinitely. So one could argue that you could use the ECL at the time of casting to determine that.

Even so, there are other methods.

One expenditure of Command Undead (boosted by Undead Master) brings 12 more HD under your control assuming they all fail their Will saves (which they probably will, especially if they have more HD so you get fewer individual saves). That leaves 4 left.

As a free action, order your controlled undead to attack. Slip on your custom Ring of Hide from Undead, which costs a mere 3000gp. The measly 4 HD worth of uncontrolled undead no longer detect you as living. Oh look! There are a bunch of meddling adventurers who look tasty!


The more elegant solution is to simply switch out a couple feats for Mage's Tattoo and Spell Specialization, which don't go away, and then just not cast Desecrate.

That gets you....60 HD.

Or, for the NPC necro, have one of your cultist underlings Command Undead for the leftovers.

Done and done.

Dark Archive

Kryptik wrote:
Mathwei ap Niall wrote:


Yeah, that will let you ANIMATE that many undead but it won't let you control that many. Once your ECL drops back down to normal you'll be limited to controlling 48 hd worth with the rest becoming uncontrolled.

What are you going to do to keep control of the other 16HD of undead?

The spell does say that the undead created remain under your control indefinitely. So one could argue that you could use the ECL at the time of casting to determine that.

Even so, there are other methods.

One expenditure of Command Undead (boosted by Undead Master) brings 12 more HD under your control assuming they all fail their Will saves (which they probably will, especially if they have more HD so you get fewer individual saves). That leaves 4 left.

As a free action, order your controlled undead to attack. Slip on your custom Ring of Hide from Undead, which costs a mere 3000gp. The measly 4 HD worth of uncontrolled undead no longer detect you as living. Oh look! There are a bunch of meddling adventurers who look tasty!

And the following sentence states
Quote:
No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level. If you exceed this number, all the newly created creatures fall under your control, and any excess undead from previous castings become uncontrolled.

But to answer Nearyn's question it takes 2 feats and a channel energy class feature to control 44 HD of undead.


Erm, no one claimed there would be multiple castings of Animate Dead.

Read a little further into the paragraph you quoted.

"Undead you control through the Command Undead feat do not count toward this limit."

It's a separate pool. Once the ECL buffs from the spells wear off, I lose 16HD of control. I pump Command Undead once, getting me up to 12HD more. There are 4 remaining, I slip on the ring, they lock on to the adventurers, I take off the ring.

Or, if you don't like that, I have my cultist underling Command what I can't control.

Easy peasy.


Also, let's please keep in mind that for the purposes of the encounter as designed, by the time the spells wear off either the necromancer or the PCs will be dead or retreated.

But for the purposes of a PC necromancer, it is better to go with the aforementioned feats rather than the spells, unless you don't care about throwing away a few hundred gold occasionally.

Dark Archive

Never said there were more castings of animate dead, just quoted the paragraph for the spell. The clarification was strictly for the poster asking how to control that many undead at once.

Now there are 3 separate buckets in play here actually.
1. The number of undead HD you can animate at one time
2. The number of those HD you can [b]normally[\b] control
3. The number you can control with Command Undead.

For NPC's it doesn't really matter to much being DM plot devices so fudging/custom items/spells can fix anything. For PC's juggling these 3 is where everything is at.

Why?, because with every casting there is a chance that several existing undead will go uncontrolled and attack you or something you don't want them to attack. PLUS since they do get a save against your Command Undead feat (which you can only do a small number of times per day) there is a recognizable risk to this tactic.


Sorry for necroposting.

I'm playing a level 11 Juju Oracle who knows both animate dead and the word of power undead. I would like to know if the pool of undead controllable are the same or are different.
So can i control 66 HD of undead in total or 132 HD (66 HD animate dead and 66 HD Undeath)?

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