Tier APL Chart


GM Discussion

Scarab Sages 4/5

Its a little late so I wanted to double check this chart before I sent it to another GM, can some one double check for me.

_______________Season 0-3____________________Season 4-5
APL_____4-5 Players____6-7 Players____4 Players___5-7 Players
<X_________Low Tier_______Low Tier______Low Tier*___Low Tier
=X<X.5_____Low Tier_______High Tier______Low Tier____High Tier*
=X.5_______Choice________Choice________Choice______Choice
>X.5_______High Tier_______High Tier______High Tier*___High Tier

Where X is 3 for Tier 1-5, 5 for Tier 1-7, 5 for Tier 3-7, 7 for Tier 5-9, and 9 for Tier 7-11
*Scale the encounters for 4 players
Note: If no players are in the High Tier *(all are <=X) the group has its Choice of which Tier to play.

grr formatting, its so much easier in a spreadsheet (oh and everywhere its says Tier it should say SubTier, not fixing the formatting again...)

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West

Brett Cochran wrote:

Its a little late so I wanted to double check this chart before I sent it to another GM, can some one double check for me.

_______________Season 0-3____________________Season 4-5
APL_____4-5 Players____6-7 Players____4 Players___5-7 Players
<X_________Low Tier_______Low Tier______Low Tier*___Low Tier
=X<X.5_____Low Tier_______High Tier______Low Tier____High Tier*
=X.5_______Choice________Choice________Choice______Choice
>X.5_______High Tier_______High Tier______High Tier*___High Tier

Where X is 3 for Tier 1-5, 5 for Tier 1-7, 5 for Tier 3-7, 7 for Tier 5-9, and 9 for Tier 7-11
*Scale the encounters for 4 players

grr formatting, its so much easier in a spreadsheet

Not quite right, as I understand it.

A party of six players (or 5 players, for season 4 or later scenarios), of APL a little less than 'X' (so the APL rounds up to X) is not always forced to play high (sub)tier; if none of the characters is of the level to play in the high subtier they can choose which subtier to play

Scarab Sages 4/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Oh and the relevant section:

GtOP pg. 31 wrote:


Determining Subtiers
In order to determine which subtier a mixed-level group of PCs must play in, calculate the group’s average party level (APL). Divide the total number of character levels by the number of characters in the party. You should always round to the nearest whole number. Starting with Season 4, scenarios are designed for six characters and contain instructions on how to adjust the scenario for four-character parties. When the APL of a table is between two subtiers (like APL 3 for a Tier 1–5 scenario), a party of four characters must play the lower tier without any adjustments for party size. A party of five to seven characters whose APL is between two subtiers must play the higher tier with the four-character adjustment.
For scenarios written in Seasons 0 to 3, when the APL is in between subtiers, a party of six or seven characters must play the higher subtier. Parties with four or five characters must play the lower subtier. In the fringe case where there are no players that are high enough to have reached the subtier level (such as a party of six 3rd level characters), the group may decide to play down to the lower subtier.

Scarab Sages 4/5

John Francis wrote:


Not quite right, as I understand it.

A party of more than four players, of APL a little than 'X' (so the APL rounds up to X) is not always forced to play high (sub)tier; if none of the charactiers is of the level to play in the high subtier they can choose which subtier to play

I ninja added a note before seeing your post John, I swear ;p

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West

Don't sweat it.

I'm still trying to decide whether that option to select to play the lower subtier is only applicable to seasons 0-3, or whether it also applies to seasons 4/5.

Silver Crusade 3/5

A table that lists the subtier by the total party level instead of the APL might be useful, and easier for GMs to use "in the trenches". For example, I have the following two tables for Tier 1-5 scenarios.

The numbers in the tables are the total number of levels in the party.
The columns are:
# = number of players in the party
Low = subtier 1-2
Low4 = subtier 1-2 with the 4-player adjustments
High = subtier 4-5
High4 = subtier 4-5 with the 4-player adjustments

Tier 1-5, Seasons 0-3
#__Low___High_
4 | 04-13 | 14-20
5 | 05-17 | 18-25
6 | 06-14 | 15-30
7 | 07-17 | 18-35

Tier 1-5, Seasons 4-5
#__Low4___Low___High4__High_
4 | 04-09 | 10-13 | 14-20 | _N/A_
5 | _N/A_ | 05-12 | 13-17 | 18-25
6 | _N/A_ | 06-14 | 15-20 | 21-30
7 | _N/A_ | 07-17 | 18-24 | 25-35

I can create the tables for other Tiers if there is interest and you feel it will be useful.

Scarab Sages 4/5

The Fox wrote:

...

I can create the tables for other Tiers if there is interest and you feel it will be useful.

I do think expanded tables could be useful to a lot of GMs. Using total party level is easier than APL (removes a calculation), APL is the way Pathfinder wants to express it though. I was hoping a single table could express it concisely.

I added an image to the Helpful Resources folder of the GM Shared Prep drive, if anyone finds it useful, it is formatted a little better and a couple of small edits.

SubTier Chart.png

Silver Crusade 2/5

The Fox wrote:

A table that lists the subtier by the total party level instead of the APL might be useful, and easier for GMs to use "in the trenches". For example, I have the following two tables for Tier 1-5 scenarios.

The numbers in the tables are the total number of levels in the party.
The columns are:
# = number of players in the party
Low = subtier 1-2
Low4 = subtier 1-2 with the 4-player adjustments
High = subtier 4-5
High4 = subtier 4-5 with the 4-player adjustments

Tier 1-5, Seasons 0-3
#__Low___High_
4 | 04-13 | 14-20
5 | 05-17 | 18-25
6 | 06-14 | 15-30
7 | 07-17 | 18-35

Tier 1-5, Seasons 4-5
#__Low4___Low___High4__High_
4 | 04-09 | 10-13 | 14-20 | _N/A_
5 | _N/A_ | 05-12 | 13-17 | 18-25
6 | _N/A_ | 06-14 | 15-20 | 21-30
7 | _N/A_ | 07-17 | 18-24 | 25-35

I can create the tables for other Tiers if there is interest and you feel it will be useful.

Hey could you do this on xcel or google doc for all the tiers and upload it to the shared drive. Many GMs, myself included, will praise you for this.

Silver Crusade 3/5

Ill_Made_Knight wrote:
Hey could you do this on xcel or google doc for all the tiers and upload it to the shared drive. Many GMs, myself included, will praise you for this.

I have already made the tables. I will try to upload them to the shared drive. (I'm not sure I know where the drive is located.) If I don't get it done, you can easily create the other tables from these as follows:

Tier 3-7
Add 2 x (#players) to each row.

Tier 5-9
Add 4 x (#players) to each row

Tier 7-11
Add 6 x (#players) to each row

So, for example, in Tier 5-9, Seasons 4-5, for the row of 6 players, we need to add 24 to each number in that row. We get:

6 | _N/A_ | 30-38 | 39-44 | 45-54

Silver Crusade 3/5

Found it and added the file SubTiers.pdf in Helpful Resources

Liberty's Edge 4/5 RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Under the Guide v5 rule that you quoted, isn't it correct that you always round to the nearest whole number? And therefore, there's no choice if you are APL X.5?

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West

Charlie Bell wrote:
Under the Guide v5 rule that you quoted, isn't it correct that you always round to the nearest whole number? And therefore, there's no choice if you are APL X.5?

Let's not rehash the whole "of course there's only one way to round X.5" rathole here, please.

4/5

The Fox wrote:

Found it and added the file SubTiers.pdf in Helpful Resources

Thanks! Gonna share this around locally 'cause some people get confused about this. :)


John Francis wrote:
Charlie Bell wrote:
Under the Guide v5 rule that you quoted, isn't it correct that you always round to the nearest whole number? And therefore, there's no choice if you are APL X.5?
Let's not rehash the whole "of course there's only one way to round X.5" rathole here, please.

Well then, would you mind providing a link to a previous hashing of how to round APL X.5, since this is the first I've heard of such a controversy?

Silver Crusade 3/5

Yiroep wrote:
The Fox wrote:

Found it and added the file SubTiers.pdf in Helpful Resources

Thanks! Gonna share this around locally 'cause some people get confused about this. :)

Please message me if there are any errors in the calculations. I think they are all correct, but I've only double checked them and sometimes my arithmetic is not the best (mathematician).

Silver Crusade 3/5

If we are allowed to round in more than one way, then only groups with 4 or 6 players will ever get a choice. Groups with 5 or 7 players will never have a choice. Something seems fishy about that.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West

I don't believe that RAI was meant to allow you the choice of how to round X.5 The problem is that RAW just says "round to the nearest integer", with no indication which of the two equally-near integers should be chosen.

Most people seem to favour rounding X.5 up to X+1

Grand Lodge 4/5

John Francis wrote:


I don't believe that RAI was meant to allow you the choice of how to round X.5 The problem is that RAW just says "round to the nearest integer", with no indication which of the two equally-near integers should be chosen.

Most people seem to favour rounding X.5 up to X+1

I don't have the link handy, but there's a quote from Mike Brock saying that players get to pick which way X.5 rounds if it matters.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West

Jeff Merola wrote:
John Francis wrote:


I don't believe that RAI was meant to allow you the choice of how to round X.5 The problem is that RAW just says "round to the nearest integer", with no indication which of the two equally-near integers should be chosen.

Most people seem to favour rounding X.5 up to X+1

I don't have the link handy, but there's a quote from Mike Brock saying that players get to pick which way X.5 rounds if it matters.

Thanks. I hadn't remembered an "ex cathedra" post on the subject.

Silver Crusade 3/5

I see no such quote. I searched through all of Mike Brocks posts dated June or later for "tier" OR "subtier" OR "choose" OR "choice". Please, point me to it. I would love to present this option to my players.

Meanwhile, I will start a new thread so as to end the derail here.

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/5 *** Venture-Captain, Washington—Spokane

The Fox wrote:

I see no such quote. I searched through all of Mike Brocks posts dated June or later for "tier" OR "subtier" OR "choose" OR "choice". Please, point me to it. I would love to present this option to my players.

Meanwhile, I will start a new thread so as to end the derail here.

As would I due to that fact that I am not finding this quote. Thanks.

Silver Crusade 2/5

Here it is

It's older, and so might not apply to the newer methods.

5/5

DesolateHarmony wrote:

Here it is

It's older, and so might not apply to the newer methods.

Thank you - I've FAQ'd the post so we might get an update on it.

The Exchange 4/5 Owner - D20 Hobbies

DesolateHarmony wrote:

Here it is

It's older, and so might not apply to the newer methods.

It was indicated to me that someone personally asked Mr. Brock at GenCon 2013 the .5 question and was told "table choice round up or down".

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