Help with Dragon Knight idea(Paladin / Sorcerer / Dragon Disciple) Core Rulebook only


Advice


Hey there everybody. So, in an upcoming game ill be playing in, I am interested in playing a Dragon Knight style character, a Paladin with Dragon Blood in his veins. Background info aside, what I'm mainly looking to do is...

-Play a Paladin with interesting Dragon based abilities and some casting.

-The game is very skill and roleplaying based, so I need skills.

-I would not mind some blasting, but I want to primarily use spells for buffing and utility.

-Im looking to focus on a Two-Handed Weapon, as im not sure how viable I can make natural attacks in Core only.

The game will be starting at lvl 4, Core Rulebook only, 25 point buy. Only core races, leaning towards Human or Half-Orc, though I can be persuaded otherwise. No traits, literally only the core book is an option.

So, to summarize, Im looking for a Dragon Knight, Melee with some spellcasting and neat tricks, and lots of roleplay and skill options. Needs to be survivable and fully playable all the way, not something only viable at high levels. I appreciate any help you all can give me, I have always found the boards to be full of advice. Thanks in advance for all the help!

Could use information quickly, as I need to present this character to the DM Tuesday evening.


You won't be doing much as far as skills go. All of those classes have 2+INT per level. Your CHA will be good, so you can invest in Diplomacy and what not... but thats about it.


Ok, a few suggestions..

You could do this simpler, and just take Eldritch Heritage at level 3, you can stick to your paladin class the whole way there, and just take some abilities from the dragon sorcerer bloodline along the way.. you have to take skill focus in perception, but hey, its really the most important skill in the game most of the time anyway.

That said, if you really must do this this way..

Race: Aasimar, your going to need some bonuses in your key stats, the +2 bonus to Charsima and Wisdom is really useful to you, and if you need to justify this to yourself, you can always go with the concept of your dragon blooded relative is some sort of Celestial Dragon.

Now.. what you need most is strength and charisma as high as you can go, but the other problem you've created for yourself.. is arcane failure, your going to need to take Arcane Armor Training and Arcane Armor Mastery whenever you can.

With 25 points..you can do this with your Aasmar, and you also get a bonus to your diplomacy and perception skills as an aasimar.. wisdom sort of becomes a dump stat, and you can dump it lower if you wish too, I tend not to like lowering things below 10 if I can help it, but thats me, not you.. you could lower it to 9 and get enough points for a 12 in constitution.

10 Strength 16
Dexterity 10
Constitution 10
Intelligence 10
-2 Wisdom 10
17 Charisma 20

Ach.. I just realized you wanted this core book only.. *sigh* my error. I'm afraid in that case, your sort of screwed, but you can still use the above attribute build, you just have to use a different race.. human or half elf in that case.. let the wisdom be 8, and put your bonus into either strength or charisma.. same build again.


Krul, great advice, and thats what I would do...if those were options. However this is a core rulebook only game, which is why im looking for advice. Im used to more options so im kinda lost at the moment. I appreciate the aid though!


Yes, sort of realized that after I posted alright... still, I gave this a second look, based on that..

Human, Orc or Half-Elf, your choice here, but human will give you the most skill points, which you need sense your only getting 2 per level.

Attributes:

Strength 16, Dexterity 10, Constitution 14, Intelligence 10, Wisdom 10, Charisma 16

Put your +2 bonus in Charisma or Strength.. your choice, but for a 2 handed weapon, I say stick with strength... as magic for both the paladin and sorcerer are charisma dependent, you can lower wisdom for some more intelligence and a few extra skill points

All you need to qualify for dragon disciple is five ranks of Knowledge Arcana, the Draconic Language, and the ability to cast 1st level arcane spells spontaneously.

If you want to maximize your close combat potential, I'd take 1 level of sorc, then stick with 4 levels of pally until level 5. If you put your points in the right place, you will qualify to take dragon disciple for your 6th level.


This is an interesting thought exercise. Hrm.

Shadoven wrote:
The game will be starting at lvl 4, Core Rulebook only, 25 point buy. Only core races, leaning towards Human or Half-Orc, though I can be persuaded otherwise. No traits, literally only the core book is an option.

I would definitely go with Human over Half-Orc, simply for the bonus skill rank per level since you've said you'll need skills. The feat doesn't hurt, either.

25 point buy helps, though lack of options beyond Core is definitely making it a bit difficult to decide which way to go. I'm stuck between these two:

Extra Strength:
Strength 20(17+ Racial + 4th level)
Dexterity 12
Constitution 14
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 8
Charisma 14

With this one, you'll need to prioritize getting a +CHA headband early enough to allow you to get past 4th level spells. With the multiclassing, this might be somewhere around level 12, so easily doable.

Str/Cha Bala-Balance:
Strength 18(15+ Racial + 4th level)
Dexterity 12
Constitution 14
Intelligence 12
Wisdom 9
Charisma 16

This is more balanced between Str/Cha. I tend to like it a bit more. You won't be quite as strong when attacking outside of smiting evil, but on the other hand, your saves will be a bit better and if you get hit with a wisdom drain, you won't be quite as weak there either(only one point difference, but I had to put the leftover point somewhere). You could also drop 2 points from Dex and one from Wis to up Str by one more, giving you another point of modifier come level 8.

Regarding both: I normally don't like dumping Wisdom, but starting a paladin high enough to add Cha to saves, it's reasonably acceptable. With 2+int+racial for skills, that'll be 4 per level. Not as high as I like, but it is what it is.

With a focus on buff spells, you don't have to worry about shoring up your Charisma quite as much to deal with spell DCs, but it's still important for the increase to saves as well as other paladin benefits. But since you won't be full classing paladin, the reduced number of smites per day also limit how much it helps you as well.

Suggestions for building the classes
There are a few options here. As I see it, start with 2 levels in paladin, regardless of what else you do. From there, I see two other routes I would consider.

The first: 1-2 Levels in Sorcerer, rest goes paladin and DD when you can get it. To me, anything beyond is a painful loss of BAB on a build that already kinda feels the loss of it. Still, your breath weapon will benefit from the higher bloodline level.

The second: 2 levels paladin, 3 levels in Bard, DD to the point where you're happy with it, then rest paladin. Gives you three levels of increased skills, Versatile Performance further streamlines two of your skills into a single one, and Inspire Competence helps your party make their skill checks when you can't, and now you can also make all knowledge checks untrained.

The bard spell list isn't as good as the Sorc/Wiz one, but it has some decent buffs. You'll feel the pinch from lower bloodline, but it was never gonna be ultra high with either method I'm suggesting anyway.

I'd choose the bard one, personally, but it's up to you ultimately. And I'm not entirely sure either option is the best overall, but hopefully at least they help a bit.


You are asking for a lot out of a limited palette. I think you have to go bard and fluff the dragon aspects until dragon disciple at 6th level. Otherwise, you are a paladin/sorcerer with either no armor or spell failure woes. Bard isn't a bad gig to fluff. Be a lightly armored knight with sword and shield. Lots of skills and knowledge are racial memories of your draconic heritage. performance abilities are moments of dragon awe showing through. Choose spells that fit the concept and can be made dragon-ish.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This is the way I'd go points wise.

Str 16, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 15

Your 4th level rise go into into Charisma, and then the rest of the advancement points go with a mix of Str and Charisma.

You take your first feat as Toughness and and your first favored bonus as hit points taking skill points at later levels if you want more skills.

Assuming Human, as it is you get 3-4 skill points per level depending on that choice.

You don't need a 20 stat at first level. And if you're really looking at a big weapon, I'd think bastard sword because it gives you options of leaving a hand open for shield or casting use.


LazarX wrote:

This is the way I'd go points wise.

Str 16, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 15

You don't need a 20 stat at first level. And if you're really looking at a big weapon, I'd think bastard sword because it gives you options of leaving a hand open for shield or casting use.

That's either a 29 point array before racial modifiers or a 24 point array after.

And you can take one hand of your greatsword to cast, as a free action.


I appreciate all the ideas everyone! I have a build in mind after doing some looking last night, will update this evening. I have settled on Human, and im considering Paladin 4, Sorcerer 2, DD 8, EK 5 at the moment.


That looks to get me BAB 16, CL 12, 11 fort, 6 refl, 13 will. Good HP, and it progresses nicely, without too many dead spots where I am weaker than need be. Thoughts?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Pupsocket wrote:
LazarX wrote:

This is the way I'd go points wise.

Str 16, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 15

You don't need a 20 stat at first level. And if you're really looking at a big weapon, I'd think bastard sword because it gives you options of leaving a hand open for shield or casting use.

That's either a 29 point array before racial modifiers or a 24 point array after.

And you can take one hand of your greatsword to cast, as a free action.

It was based on a 25 point buy with the Human bonus. I forget where it was applied as I did not save the Herolab work. I prefer the bastard sword since you get a honking big blade while still being able to use a shield.


Shadoven wrote:
That looks to get me BAB 16, CL 12, 11 fort, 6 refl, 13 will. Good HP, and it progresses nicely, without too many dead spots where I am weaker than need be. Thoughts?

I like the EK for gaining both caster levels and good BAB, nice touch.

Are the saves before any magic belts/headbands?


Those are base saves before paladin stuff, stats, or items.


Shadoven wrote:
Those are base saves before paladin stuff, stats, or items.

Nice. Those saves, 6th(?) level casting and a pretty decent BAB should make you an excellent switch hitter.

It's just too bad that there's nothing beyond Core you can use, since there are some things in the APG and Ultimate Equipment which might enhance your abilities even further.


Indeed? Id love extra resources, but I respect the DM's decision. Now im stuck on gear and whether to wear armour. As the game starts, ill be a 4th lvl Paladin. So far im strongly considering starting in chainmail with a glaive, and eventually making it mithril and going up the arcane armour training tree.

By the way, I have 4500 gold to play with. Thoughts on gear? We will be dungeon crawling andIin the wilderness where skills are much more valuable alot, so many skill many of the skill items and neat tools like Rope of Climbing have caught my eye.


To me the biggest thing you're missing is Eldritch Heritage so you can toss in another bloodline and get the inherent strength bonuses (Orc, Abyssal).

I've done this character myself in a way. What level are you going to? You'll start off struggling, but it pays off late game very well. Around level 14 I was unstoppable (and this was with claws only, so a claw build IS viable).

Shadoven wrote:
I have settled on Human, and im considering Paladin 4, Sorcerer 2, DD 8, EK 5 at the moment.

That's a good mix. I've never done Eldritch Knight, and I went with much more Sorcerer for better casting, but I'm willing to bet that this works great.


BTW, if skills are important, I think 12 in intelligence might be a pretty decent idea. Paladins have a pretty decent skill set, pity they don´t have an archetype for more skill points a la tactician fighters.


Core only so no Eldritch Heritage. I went with these stats...

Str 17
Con 12
Dex 14
Int 12
Wis 12
Char 16

Thats counting my lvl 4 point and human bonus. Using a reach weapon to maximize AOO and Combat Reflexes.

DD will raise my Str by 4 and Con by 2 so that will help.


Shadoven wrote:
By the way, I have 4500 gold to play with. Thoughts on gear? We will be dungeon crawling andIin the wilderness where skills are much more valuable alot, so many skill many of the skill items and neat tools like Rope of Climbing have caught my eye.

If your GM is big on nighttime attacks, you might consider a Ring of Sustenance, though that's more than half your gold, so might want to wait.

Another thought is to go with a couple of the big Six(+1 to weapon and armor, if it were me), then spend the rest on consumables and more mundane tools.

Check out this guide for useful cheap magic items and mundane tools that you might want to consider in any character's arsenal. At the very least, I would devote a few hundred gold to purely mundane items.

Discuss with your GM what types of masterwork tools you can get. They're rather cheap for a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill(might be a situational use of the skill, like a masterwork snare kit that allows +2 on survival to find food). Ultimately it's up to him what will fly, so you'll have to sit down on those. With that kind of gold to start with, I'd shoot for at least four such items in the party, personally.

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