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Draw or Sheathe a Weapon
Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.
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Can you draw a wand as part of a move with a bab of +1 or higher?
Yes: the paragraphs are related and are talking about the same thing: weapons or weapon like objects
No: the second paragraph specifies weapon, not weapon or weapon like object.
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I have always interpreted it to be yes.
- Gauss
I have always interpreted it to be yes.
- Gauss
+1
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I would allow it
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Knuckles Jarvis, it is generally not helpful to reference other items or abilities instead of the rule in question. Other items are not the rule in question.
However, I will point out that a Handy Haversack is a move action to draw an item. Drawing a wand is also a move action. They are the same.
A Spring Loaded Wrist Sheath removes the need for it to be a free+move action at all. It is not being supplanted by these rules.
The question is: is drawing a wand a free action when combined with a "Move" move action as per the rules?
The rules seem to say yes.
- Gauss
Knuckles Jarvis, it is generally not helpful to reference other items or abilities instead of the rule in question. Other items are not the rule in question.
However, I will point out that a Handy Haversack is a move action to draw an item. Drawing a wand is also a move action. They are the same.
A Spring Loaded Wrist Sheath removes the need for it to be a free+move action at all. It is not being supplanted by these rules.
The question is: is drawing a wand a free action when combined with a "Move" move action as per the rules?
The rules seem to say yes.
- Gauss
Exactly. The question is, if you have a +1 BAB, can you draw a wand from your belt or holster/sheathe combined with a move, just as you could a sword or dagger? And the answer is yes.
Strict RAW, no, as weapon-like objects are only referred to for the purpose of AOO (No if accessible, Yes if packed). The part about base attack bonus takes place in a separate paragraph from the first and left out the similar language from third sentence, which expands to include weapon-like objects.
That said, it is not unreasonable and quite common to ignore strict RAW, as RAW would make it seem like it's easier to draw a 20 lbs. hammer than an 1 oz. stick. Then again, by that logic it should be just as easy to draw a 1 oz. vail as well.
Strict RAW, no, as weapon-like objects are only referred to for the purpose of AOO (No if accessible, Yes if packed). The part about base attack bonus takes place in a separate paragraph from the first and left out the similar language from third sentence, which expands to include weapon-like objects.
Nothing in that rule refers to AoOs, so I'm not sure how that comes into it. But the part about drawing as part of a move says "this action," and drawing a weapon-like object is part of the "draw or sheathe a weapon" action header, so it should still apply.
This is one of those pure lawyered up RAW vs RAI vs individual interpretation sorts of things.
In my mind if your character has their wands arrayed in a way similar to weapons (in a holster, bandolier, etc.) then I'd allow it. If the wand is in a backpack or bag or otherwise not as accessible as a typical weapon, I'd say it would require a full move action to get it out of the bag.
In general I even waive the "+1 BAB" rule for this sort of thing and just allow weapons or wands in holsters to be drawn as part of a move for any character.
Nothing in that rule refers to AoOs, so I'm not sure how that comes into it.
Table 8-2: Actions in Combat
Draw a weapon-----> Aoo No
Retrieve a stored item-----> Aoo Yes
Oh, and Click Here for more information on the subject.
*Absolutely yes.
It says what it takes to draw a weapon.
Then it says weapon-like objects are the same.
THEN it says weapons/weapon-like objects in bags take longer.
And by the strictest reading of RAW:
Drawing ammunition for use with a ranged weapon (such as arrows, bolts, sling bullets, or shuriken) is a free action.
Would mean that it doesn't matter where the ammo is. If it was tied in a bunch, hidden in a bag of holding, placed at the bottom of a backpack, tied shut, slipped into the saddlebag of the horse you are riding, you could shoot a bunch of arrows in one round.
*Well, now that I look more, Quick Draw doesn't work on a weapon-like objects so this blurs what I thought was a clear cut question.
This game is filled with some many contradictions to logic. Oh well, still the best game out there!
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Ed Girallon Poe, this is not in ANY way "Retrieve a stored item". A Wand from a slot on your belt is not a stored item.
Draw or Sheathe a Weapon
Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.
As you can see, this is not retrieving a stored item. It is Drawing or Sheathing a weapon. It just happens that the "weapon" is a weapon-like object called a wand as written.
So, there is NO Attack of Opportunity.
- Gauss
Ed Girallon Poe, this is not in ANY way "Retrieve a stored item". A Wand from a slot on your belt is not a stored item.
As you can see, this is not retrieving a stored item. It is Drawing or Sheathing a weapon. It just happens that the "weapon" is a weapon-like object called a wand as written.
So, there is NO Attack of Opportunity.
- Gauss
I never said there was going to be. What I said was that the first paragraph is defining what action you use to draw weapons (and weapon-like objects). If said item is easily accessible, it requires a move action to retrieve that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If said item is stored, it requires a move action to retrieve that does provoke an attack of opportunity. I was simply defining the topic of the first paragraph, not implying anything else.
Like I said, this has been argued before (please, check the link). I merely stated that, BY STRICT RAW, wands can't be drawn on the move, but it's common enough to disregard absolutes in text.
Ahhh, ok. For some reason I thought you were trying to indicate that wands could not be drawn without provoking an AoO. Sorry about that. :)
I did check the link, it appears that the RAW was argued in both directions so Im not sure that we can conclusively say that it is strict RAW that they cannot be. In any case, it is a good link and rehashing the same arguments is pointless. :)
- Gauss
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DeviantDiva, so does that mean that a bow is not a weapon?
Being a weapon-like object does not have anything to do with threatening or providing flanks.
- Gauss
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Dang your logic!
But no, what I so not clearly meant to say is if something would normally threaten and provide flank, it should also be counted as weaponish.
All things that are considered threatening and provide flank should be considered a weapon, but not all weapons provide flank.
Or something. -hushes-
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Language purists would say that since a wand is not a weapon, it cannot be unsheathed while on the move...
...but is it not reasonable to say that drawing a dagger from a sheath and drawing a wand from a sheath are very similar physical actions? I cannot see any reason why a wand or some other weapon-like object could not be unsheathed on the move as long as they are easily accessible via a sheath, bandolier, etc. The rules don't need to explicitly state every little nuance. The same goes for the Quick Draw feat.
RedDog, I agree with your logic. Problem is I would also apply that to Quick Draw. But Quick Draw clearly states that it doesn't apply to wands.
Draw or Sheathe a Weapon
Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.
________Can you draw a wand as part of a move with a bab of +1 or higher?
Yes: the paragraphs are related and are talking about the same thing: weapons or weapon like objects
No: the second paragraph specifies weapon, not weapon or weapon like object.
The answer is yes, the second paragraph says "draw a weapon", because that is what the action is called, look at the top the action is called "Draw or Sheathe a weapon" and in the first paragraph it goes on to include weapon-like options as a part of this rule. The second paragraph simply states you can do this action as a free action combined with a regular move.
Quick Draw also states Draw a Weapon, then says Wands don't count.
Evidence points both ways.
English and all of her double meanings is a problem when it comes to rules.
We have a case where it is Explicit wands count. We have a case where it is explicit that they don't.
Then we have a case where it is not explicit, but again, have evidence pointing both ways.
The answer cannot be proven, only guessed at.
Quick Draw also states Draw a Weapon, then says Wands don't count.
Evidence points both ways.
English and all of her double meanings is a problem when it comes to rules.
We have a case where it is Explicit wands count. We have a case where it is explicit that they don't.
Then we have a case where it is not explicit, but again, have evidence pointing both ways.
The answer cannot be proven, only guessed at.
I think it rather points to what i just said, because in this case we see the exception explicitly made, that wands don't count.
If they didn't coun't for moving and drawing, then it would not be necessary to repeat it with quickdraw, since they would be the same.
Which is part of the problem. That also leads us to believe that under normal circumstances wands count as weapons for drawing them, but under other circumstances they don't.
So, does moving and drawing lead towards a special situation or towards a non-special situation.
I was totally in the "of course you can" camp until I researched more of it, and I still think it leads that way. But with all the subsystems that don't follow the same logic as other systems tied to it, then I have come to the conclusion that it is impossible to prove the answer as there are two valid arguments.
And you can also say they don't repeat it in Quick Draw, as it comes a few dozen pages before the "standard" rule. On first reading, you wouldn't know that you can draw a wand as a weapon until after you knew you could not via Quick Draw.
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Let's break this down:
Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.
When the second sentence opens with "This action", it is referring to the titular "Draw or Sheathe a Weapon" action which has just been defined in the immediately-preceding sentence (the first sentence of the first paragraph). Thus, "Draw or Sheathe a Weapon" refers to the action of drawing or sheathing a weapon or weapon-like object.
Now, the divergence of interpretation happens in the second paragraph. The first sentence of that paragraph refers to drawing a weapon. There are two ways to read this. One is that this continues to refer to the titular action, which has already been defined as including things like wands. The other is that this reference to drawing a weapon is separate from the titular action, and is therefore not attached to anything that was established in the first paragraph (such as the inclusion of weapon-like objects).
Which is correct? The former. If the latter were correct, then that would mean that we have two separate "draw a weapon" actions which function differently and affect different sets of objects, yet are also placed under the same header with each other and share an entry on the AoO chart. The former interpretation does not face these problems, and is therefore correct.
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" If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item."
This is why I mentioned the Haversack and Wrist Sheath. As far as I know there is no "wand holster" so, I always assume its in a bag or something like a wrist sheath. I may eb wrong on this, as I don't have my UE on hand.
Let's break this down:
Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.
If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.
When the second sentence opens with "This action", it is referring to the titular "Draw or Sheathe a Weapon" action which has just been defined in the immediately-preceding sentence (the first sentence of the first paragraph). Thus, "Draw or Sheathe a Weapon" refers to the action of drawing or sheathing a weapon or weapon-like object.
Now, the divergence of interpretation happens in the second paragraph. The first sentence of that paragraph refers to drawing a weapon. There are two ways to read this. One is that this continues to refer to the titular action, which has already been defined as including things like wands. The other is that this reference to drawing a weapon is separate from the titular action, and is therefore not attached to anything that was established in the first paragraph (such as the inclusion of weapon-like objects).
Which is correct? The former. If the latter were correct, then that would mean that we have two separate "draw a weapon" actions which function differently and affect different sets of objects, yet are also placed under the same header with each other and share an entry on the AoO chart. The former interpretation does not face these problems, and is therefore correct.
This is a more eloquent version of what i said, and perhaps clearer and easier to understand.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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" If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item."
This is why I mentioned the Haversack and Wrist Sheath. As far as I know there is no "wand holster" so, I always assume its in a bag or something like a wrist sheath. I may eb wrong on this, as I don't have my UE on hand.
Ever heard of a belt? I can pretty easily take a ruler or a pencil or whatever, tuck it into my belt snugly enough that it doesn't fall out or get in the way, and whip it out in about a second.
That's before we even look at individual storage-related items.
Then why would they be mentioned in the preceding sentence?" If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item."
This is why I mentioned the Haversack and Wrist Sheath. As far as I know there is no "wand holster" so, I always assume its in a bag or something like a wrist sheath. I may eb wrong on this, as I don't have my UE on hand.
This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands.
As Jiggy said, you can easily tuck them under your belt, and making a sheath-like item shouldn't be that hard, if there really aren't any.
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A wand explicitly is a weapon-like object that can be drawn as a weapon. The description of drawing a weapon on the move is an extension of that description. You can draw a wand with a +1 BAB while making a normal move. No special equipment is needed to store a wand for access in this manner.
If a given game is placing limits on what other weapons or weapon like objects, either by quantity or type, can be drawn in this way as a matter of gaming style, it is reasonable for such limits to apply to wands as well.
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" If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item."
This is why I mentioned the Haversack and Wrist Sheath. As far as I know there is no "wand holster" so, I always assume its in a bag or something like a wrist sheath. I may eb wrong on this, as I don't have my UE on hand.
Ever heard of a belt? I can pretty easily take a ruler or a pencil or whatever, tuck it into my belt snugly enough that it doesn't fall out or get in the way, and whip it out in about a second.
That's before we even look at individual storage-related items.
I'm just looking at RAW not RAI. Sure you could fit plenty of items into a belt, boots, pockets, etc. but there's no actual ruling on whether or not you can actually do this. By the same logic, I could just tie several bands around me in a tight manner to create as much holding as I want. Again, correct me if I'm wrong.
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I'm just looking at RAW not RAI. Sure you could fit plenty of items into a belt, boots, pockets, etc. but there's no actual ruling on whether or not you can actually do this. By the same logic, I could just tie several bands around me in a tight manner to create as much holding as I want. Again, correct me if I'm wrong." If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item."
This is why I mentioned the Haversack and Wrist Sheath. As far as I know there is no "wand holster" so, I always assume its in a bag or something like a wrist sheath. I may eb wrong on this, as I don't have my UE on hand.
Ever heard of a belt? I can pretty easily take a ruler or a pencil or whatever, tuck it into my belt snugly enough that it doesn't fall out or get in the way, and whip it out in about a second.
That's before we even look at individual storage-related items.
There's also "no actual ruling" that a belt can be used to hold up your pants.
Game items which exist in real life function as they do in real life except in such cases as the rules specify otherwise. We have rules defining what a longsword is and how it works, so we use those rules. We don't have rules for what pants are or how they work, so we default to them being, you know, pants.
That's how Pathfinder works.
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There's also "no actual ruling" that a belt can be used to hold up your pants.Game items which exist in real life function as they do in real life except in such cases as the rules specify otherwise. We have rules defining what a longsword is and how it works, so we use those rules. We don't have rules for what pants are or how they work, so we default to them being, you know, pants.
That's how Pathfinder works.
Really? I always thought people just walked around without pants... Hmm.
Seriously though, I'm just giving my opinion on how something would work due to their not actually being a rule. Just because it would work in real life, doesn't mean it applies to PF. I think it's going to be a standard action to draw as I see it as item retrieval, but I may be wrong. There's no reason to be snarky.
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I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm just trying to be plain: there are some things in the game which explicitly exist, have costs, weight, etc; but have no rules about what they do or how to use them.
For example, look at clothing in the Core Rulebook: the Explorer's Outfit has a cost and has weight. A character can buy it.
Okay, now what? It says it has "plenty of pockets". So I've equipped a legal item that has "pockets". What do the pockets do? Nothing in the game says they can be used to store items (or how much volume/weight they could hold). So can I store something in them?
If not, then why do you think I was being snarky by asking about a belt and pants?
Or if so, then why? There's no rule saying pockets can store items, so how do you come to that conclusion?
Can I or can I not have my PC put things in his pockets?
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I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm just trying to be plain: there are some things in the game which explicitly exist, have costs, weight, etc; but have no rules about what they do or how to use them.
For example, look at clothing in the Core Rulebook: the Explorer's Outfit has a cost and has weight. A character can buy it.
Okay, now what? It says it has "plenty of pockets". So I've equipped a legal item that has "pockets". What do the pockets do? Nothing in the game says they can be used to store items (or how much volume/weight they could hold). So can I store something in them?
If not, then why do you think I was being snarky by asking about a belt and pants?
Or if so, then why? There's no rule saying pockets can store items, so how do you come to that conclusion?
Can I or can I not have my PC put things in his pockets?
Having pockets just falls back on my assumption that it is item retrieval. That's how I've seen any non-weapon item GMed as, and that's how I GM it. My apologies for assuming you were being snarky (too much time on forums I guess). I just thought you meant it was obvious because you could do it in real life.
Knuckles Jarvis, so I guess non-magical horseshoes don't exist either?
Seriously, there is a lot of apparel that is NOT covered. A lot of little items like that that would be simply pointless to stat out.
If I want a bow tie ("cause bow ties are cool"), do you look it up in the rules and if not shown I cannot have it?
The game cannot possibly encompass every little item.
The rules state that if a weapon-like item is within easy reach then drawing it is covered by the Draw or Sheathe a Weapon rules rather than the Retrieving an item rules. Clearly the intent is to enable wands to be drawn as if they are a weapon.
- Gauss
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Gauss, I agreed with you 100% on Friday when this question came up in a game I was playing. I helped the GM to the same conclusion.
Then this thread came up.
The, "Clearly the intent is to enable wands to be drawn as if they are a weapon" idea was really clear to me until I read Quick Draw.
Why if the above quote is clearly true, did the designers absolutely separate the two with this feat? When adding this feat to the equation, it becomes clear that at some point the designers DO NOT equate them to be exactly the same as weapons.
In the past I would have still agreed with you and said it was the most logical choice.
Then I have had a few very long discussions about sub-systems that don't follow the same logic as their parent systems, and in fact do the exact opposite for no reason other than the designers say so.
So, when I try to apply the logic of 1 + 2 = 3 has to mean that 3 = 2 + 1 to every part of the game, I get screwed and come up with an inconsistent answer.
Following all of that, my new position on trying to identify a proper rule is that if there are two different outcomes with strong supporting evidence, it is impossible to PROVE the correct ruling and it must be left up to FAQ.
Now, my opinion, which again I don't think can be proven, is that wands can be drawn while on the move as a free action if you have a +1 Base Attack Bonus. But because of the way the rule is written, I do not discount anyone that says you can't.
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*For those interested:
I am not trying to rehash the below arguments here, I am trying to show that the logic of Rule A does not always apply to Rule A, Sub-rule 1.
The two biggest threads that have affected my position on how to make rulings are:
Mounted Combat : In this thread it is shown that casters and ranged characters gain movement/economy of action benefits while mounted, but melee characters actually lose options/economy of actions and that moving 5' and using Cleave is OK even if it counts as 20' feet of movement, but moving 20' and using Cleave is not allowed.
Stealth : In this thread it is shown that hiding from a character with Low Light Vision changes where a character can hide (the perception of Dim Light) with Stealth, but that Low Light Vision (the perception of Dim Light) does not affect the ability to Hide in Plain Sight in any way.
And I won't even link the crazy threads about "what is a hand and what can it do" which have a million good points for every side.
Komoda, I agree that it is not entirely clear and subject to interpretation (hence why I stated my first answer the way I did). My comments to Knuckles are more to do with the first paragraph than the second paragraph.
- Gauss
I don't feel that the RAW is compelling one way or the other, so I clicked FAQ. This seems like it should be a pretty easy FAQ to answer since barring some insane exploit I can't even conceive of the answer to this question just barely matters in game balance terms. Like - Oh no, Bards are moving before healing people for 1d8+1!!!
Regarding pockets, it seems odd to me that there's a magic item slot for practically every article of clothing except pants. I didn't know if I liked the idea of a bunch of pants-less high level adventurers running around the campaign world, so an NPC tailor created Pants of Holding. They're a lot like a Handy Haversack with 2-4 small to mid sized pockets, and they might look a little less dorky too. For those who aren't as fashion conscious I guess there's always Handy Fannypack.
I've always assumed that if the wand was in a weapon-type location, e.g. a wand sheath on the belt, or tucked into a sash, you could draw it on a move as a weapon. Quickdraw doesn't work, of course, and if you're not moving it takes time to draw; this reflects that while you're walking around, your hands can do things like grab an easily available item from your person.