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I don't think Paladins should be anything other than lawful good.I've never really "got" this. It seems like all those chaotic evil gods are MORE likely to have holy (or in this case, unholy) warriors than a lawful good god.I dunno, I like to envision the Paladin as something more than a warrior with a cause and a crusader for a (good) religion. It's an old fashion ideal (in terms of RPGs), and perhaps that the marriage of a class with a unique paradigm is outdated, but that's how I like it.
That's not to say that Chaotic Evil characters cannot be more than warriors with an (evil) cause and crusaders for an (evil) cult or religion, but then I'd rather them have their own, exclusive class instead.
I definitely wouldn't mind calling them something different, (and not "antipaladin" which is really dumb) and maybe different powers to match their alignment.
Just weird that the only gods who would give powers to someone who can swing a sword half-decent are lawful good ones
Agreed. In theory, there are three perfectly agreeable solutions to the "My player wants to play a non-LG paladin" problem:
1. Discard the paladin's alignment restriction.
2. Tell him/her to play a ToB crusader.
3. Homebrew lots of unique 'holy warrior' classes, each with its own special snowflake set of powers.
But IME in practice, option 3 never happens because it requires the DM to actually sit down design something from scratch, which most don't have the time/confidence to do. Option 2 is often disallowed because "No weeboo fightan magic anime crap in my game!" and/or "ToB is OP!!!" And of course option 1 is frequently ignored because non-LG paladins give many DMs an icky feeling.
Which in practice means that too many DMs effectively squelch all paladin character concepts that don't cleave to the traditionally narrow Galahad concept.
I do a lot of homebrewing--with all sorts of games. Anything that's customizable. One of the reasons I was drawn to tabletop roleplaying, actually, since it encourages homebrew.
^^Also something I might get shunned for
Just weird that the only gods who would give powers to someone who can swing a sword half-decent are lawful good ones
I think the original intent (which may have been lost in the translation somewhere) is that the gods are not the source of the paladin's power, but the fact that he is pure, just and whatever other virtue the classical code of the paladin demands (including but not limited to praying to a good deity).
In a way, you could see the 1st ed paladin as a fighting man with some kind of proto-vow. The vow demanded faith, but faith was not necessarily the source of his powers. That at least explains why LG is the only viable alignment for the paladin as originally designed, but I guess other codes, along with other alignments, could result in different powers.
That doesn't necessarily make this less "weird", especially now with the paladin being more of a holy warrior for a church rather than just a true sucker for Good (who also associates with a good cult).
Yeah, I'm not getting into that argument, beyond to say I subscribe to the belief that "death is not the only definition of failure in a game".
Yeah, Diablo has Hardcore mode where death is permanent. And I don't really get the appeal in Diablo any more than I get it in D&D.
*shrug*
I guess bragging rights are really important to some gamers.
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Given how many people played on Neverwinter Nights servers with permadeath implemented, you might be surprised to find it's far more popular than you think. (Even better, a lot of these had you drop everything you were carrying when you died, meaning whoever killed you - or if a monster did, whoever stumbled across your corpse first - could loot your body.)I never understood it myself, but it is out there.
Ehhhh, there's outliers for every statement.
Fact of the matter is RPGs are not designed for permadeath, especially not MMOs. MMOs are all about the grind, which gets repetitive and boring as-is, having to do it over from 1 every time you get wrecked by that one boss who killed 9/10 people who fight him gets old when it takes you 40 hours to get back up to where you have that 10% opportunity to do it again.
Single player RPGs are even worse since they're mostly about the story. Imagine if you had to start a movie over every time you got up to go to the bathroom during it. And the movie was 10 hours long.
The only game really designed around the "You WILL die" factor are Roguelikes, which have the redeeming quality of being randomly generated, so it's at least different and exciting every time.
Some people like to be an actual bad ass.
Some people just want to pretend they are a bad ass, but not actually take the risk of failing.
The possibility of failure is what makes success valued.
YMMV.
:rolleyes:
Ignoring for a moment the funny statement that some people like to be an ACTUAL badass when talking about a video game (or any other game for that matter): the possibility of failure is still there without permadeath.
It's just not 40+ hours of work completely wasted. That's more hours than some people work in a week.
And I'm pretty sure you're not one of those guys who runs Pathfinder and other TRPGs without Raise Dead and the like, are you? Because that's the same deal.
Except at least in TRPGs you have the option to bring in a new character at the old character's level unless your GM is completely ignorant as to game balance.
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In theory, there are three perfectly agreeable solutions to the "My player wants to play a non-LG paladin" problem:
1. Discard the paladin's alignment restriction.
2. Tell him/her to play a ToB crusader.
3. Homebrew lots of unique 'holy warrior' classes, each with its own special snowflake set of powers.
In reverse order:-
3. James Jacobs himself wrote an article for issue 310 of Dragon Magazine detailing paladins of other alignments. I hated it.
I've been wishing for a CG (or 'any good') paladin since 1st ed. Imagine my horror when reading that the CG paladin wasn't interested in fighting evil but fighting law. Paladins are the ultimate warriors of good with powers to fight evil. That would be unchanged if their alignment was 'any good'.
You know who else hated it? James Jacobs himself.
I understand that a writer is given a job to do. 'Write up paladins of different alignments', he's told. If he came back with, 'they're perfect as they are; just change the alignment to any good and tweak the spell list to reflect that.' then he isn't going to get paid. Even though that would be the correct solution.
2. We aren't talking about Crusaders, we're talking about paladins. 'What's that? You want to play a bard? Just play a wizard instead, and buy a guitar. Same thing!' No! It bloody well isn't!
1. Correct solution? As above. Change the alignment to 'any good', tweak the spell list and Weapon Bond list of powers to reflect this, and alter the single reference to law in the code. Job done.
Shun away.
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It's just not 40+ hours of work completely wasted. That's more hours than some people work in a week.
My /played in WoW is both a great memory and shame.
In theory, there are three perfectly agreeable solutions to the "My player wants to play a non-LG paladin" problem:
1. Discard the paladin's alignment restriction.
2. Tell him/her to play a ToB crusader.
3. Homebrew lots of unique 'holy warrior' classes, each with its own special snowflake set of powers.
Option four! Use the existing paladin/anti paladin class and the variants from 3.5 to create build your own paladins. That's what I did anyway. Just pick your auras and smite from a list of examples(or your own, with GM permission).
That said, I love ToB. I'm the only guy I've played with who allows ToB with a smile, so its sort of hard to actually enjoy the ToB... Crusader's were awesome, just had a funky reload mechanic.
I liked the random reload, personally.
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@Rynjin - It isn't my cup of tea, but there was a certain pride I took on the 2nd playthrough of Skyrim on how far I got before my first death.
And the game was definitely something I was less proud of when I continued.
When you play with a character who has never died, most people are kind of proud of that achievement. Because it is an achievement.
Winning a silver or a bronze is an achievement. Being able to say I beat the game in hardcore mode is going to be more of an achievement.
Everyone picks the mode they are comfortable with, but let's not denigrate people who take up challenges and praise people who...well...don't.
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Malachi, have you tried the Paladin of Freedom from Unearthed Arcana? I don't think it is any more against Law than the regular Paladin is against Chaos.
No, I haven't. The people I game with don't allow some books, like this one or PHB2.
I like the altered spell list (and this could be a basis for a CG (or 'any good') PF paladin. I like what it says about the Code of Conduct and Associates.
But I would not change Diplomacy into Bluff, nor would I replace Aura of Courage with Aura of Resolve in 3.5. Since the PF paladin has both Auras this wouldn't be an issue.
Thanks anyway. I'd forgotten all about the variants in Unearthed Arcana. : )
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I have zero interest in being challenged in video games, and I really don't get people who do. Seriously. What's the accomplishment there? Are you going to tell your boss you beat Halo on Legendary in one life? Is it going to score you a date with an attractive woman? Is it going to win you a trophy your family and friends give a crap about? No, no, and no.
Some challenge in a game is fun. (The 2008 Prince of Persia was so dull precisely because you couldn't die.) But I have better things to frustrate myself over than playing the same 1/2 hour chunk of Dark Souls just to say I did.
Are you going to tell your boss you beat Halo on Legendary in one life?
I once told someone at a mock job interview(long story) that I got 39 people I'd never met before to work together with me to take down major threats to the World... of Warcraft. (Never. Again. That was stressfull yo!)
Will I be shunned for having been a raid leader once or twice or knowing what GDKP means?
I have zero interest in being challenged in video games, and I really don't get people who do. Seriously. What's the accomplishment there? Are you going to tell your boss you beat Halo on Legendary in one life? Is it going to score you a date with an attractive woman? Is it going to win you a trophy your family and friends give a crap about? No, no, and no.
Some challenge in a game is fun. (The 2008 Prince of Persia was so dull precisely because you couldn't die.) But I have better things to frustrate myself over than playing the same 1/2 hour chunk of Dark Souls just to say I did.
You come off waaaaaay hostile, bro. Cool it, stop acting like you're telling someone they're having badwrongfun.
MrSin, I once led what was then the largest successful city conquest in Grepolis. The defending player turned out to be a CEO of a company and he private messaged me that he was immensely impressed by my successful management of an attack that took days of planning, dozens of players and a final attack phase with over fifty attacks landing within a twenty second window.
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I found Neon Genesis Evangelion to be heavily overrated and annoyingly melodramatic.
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I found Neon Genesis Evangelion to be heavily overrated and annoyingly melodramatic.
I'm right there with you buddy.
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I find people who use emoticons on message boards incredibly irritating.
o.O?
They're much harder to use in RL.
I think that Tolkien has no sense of narrative rhythm. The Silmarillion made me want to claw my eyes out.
Ursula K. Le Guin wrote an essay (including a close reading of one passage) on Tolkien's rhythms which I read years ago. I find that it is now free online.
I mention it not to argue, but simply because I distinctly enjoyed the essay and your post reminds me of it.
I never liked Doctor Who. At first I was indifferent (I mean seeing as to how it doesn't take itself seriously I can see the appeal,but meh)
Also as a scifi nut I hated how it was labelled as such even though in its core it's not(its a kitchen-sink, it even has magic)
It was annoying living in the UK but now that it has somehow won 'the other side of the pond'(also hate that phrase) I fraking hate it.
Off course saying this won't get you shunned in most gaming communities..
But the next time I hear a girl or a guy say ''I can quote every episode of Doctor Who, I'm such a nerd'' I will off them in some appropriate way
Oh and what is it with european hipster girls and this show?
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And now on the topic of shun-worthy gamer confessions:
I no longer own any physical dice.
And now on the topic of shun-worthy gamer confessions:
I no longer own any physical dice.
I have a couple of players like that. Less of an issue for us since we game via Skype. And as we're getting into higher levels we tend to use the die roller softwares around the internet to save time on counting up large spell rolls and such.
Confession: I frequently cry in movie theatres. The movie doesn't even have to be that sad or tear-jerking. I'm easily moved by scene of friendship, trust, or people just doing the "right thing". My older boy is rather sensitive too, especially when he sees me being emotional.
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Not a confession:
Many people, when they go to read Tolkien for the first time, are expecting a fantasy novel.
What you should be expecting is a glimpse into the private diversion of a world-reknowned professor of English.
If the latter doesn't sound appealing, then those books are not for you. If it does sound appealing, then a) you're a huge dork, and b) these are some of the greatest books ever written.
The plot doesn't make sense, and the action is sparse at best, but unravelling a linguistic pun by translating a footnote? Priceless.
I'm glad so many people have taken to hating it. I miss the days when it was just for people like me. Since the movies, there's an abundance of people who have only a superficial interest in the books.
I think that Tolkien has no sense of narrative rhythm. The Silmarillion made me want to claw my eyes out.Ursula K. Le Guin wrote an essay (including a close reading of one passage) on Tolkien's rhythms which I read years ago. I find that it is now free online.
I mention it not to argue, but simply because I distinctly enjoyed the essay and your post reminds me of it.
As one who has sought out commentary and analysis of Tolkien's work from critics, writers and lay people, I am surprised that I had not before encountered Le Guin's analysis of the chapter on the Barrow-downs. It is an amazing bit of prose itself, and is clearly an expression of appreciation for a master of the narrative by another master of the same.
I have tried to point this out to people before, that Tolkien's writing is best read as if reading aloud. Pausing to catch one's breath at times. His rhythms are very organic rhythms and Le Guin identifies this as key to the pace of the narrative. When the characters are walking, the narrative walks. When the characters are riding, the narrative rides.
If one tries to read Tolkien in a hurry, or if the expectation is that Tolkien is writing like most of the 20th century fiction authors, in one long breathless climb to ultimate climax, then Tolkien can feel choppy at times, or his long narrative pauses can feel boring and out of place.
But to me that means the reader is missing one of the great literary triumphs of the book, which is that Tolkien is almost literally taking the reader step by step, day by day, breath by breath on an epic journey of ultimate conflict between utter evil and the simplest acts of good which defeat that evil.
I love Tolkien's worldbuilding. Middle Earth is a beautifully crafted work of art, a world that should someone say "hey we're gonna play games and tell stories here" I would probably not be averse to joining in.
Putting it in that context though EL it does make a lot more sense.
I don't hate it. I just didn't enjoy the story in written form. Take out the extraneous and streamline it, like the movies did, and I thought it was great, and the core story threads I enjoyed. But in the books they were heavily buried under all the lore, backstory, and worldbuilding - which on their own were great, but when you go in expecting a story and instead find yourself sifting through a setting book, it's distracting at best.
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And now on the topic of shun-worthy gamer confessions:
I no longer own any physical dice.
Can't shun you for that...
Tell me when you made the decision that instead of donating your game dice to another gamer, you threw your dice in the trash and didn't feel a little piece of your soul die when it happened and I'll give you a half-shun....
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Um could anyone out there help me build this character that is totally OP. My character died last game and I really want to stick it to my DM.
I am going to a game here in about 2 hours so I'm sorry I dont have time to give you any stats or what kind of game it is or even what kind of character i want just do all the work for me....Oh yeah could you include a detailed background story with that.
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Confession: I frequently cry in movie theatres. The movie doesn't even have to be that sad or tear-jerking. I'm easily moved by scene of friendship, trust, or people just doing the "right thing". My older boy is rather sensitive too, especially when he sees me being emotional.
I do too. I have to fight tears in movie theaters all the time. In fact even commercials can make my eyes tear up. There is a gum commercial on right now that shows a father making origami cranes for his daughter over the years from the gum wrappers, and at his daughter's eventual trip to college while loading her car, he drops a box and dozens of cranes fall out. I can't watch that commercial without tearing up. My daughter has a glass globe of a thousand cranes I folded for her.
I cried in "The Incredibles."
Sigh...
I cried in "The Incredibles."
Sigh...
Yeah, many "kid" movies we have make me cry, every time...
I love Tolkien's worldbuilding. Middle Earth is a beautifully crafted work of art, a world that should someone say "hey we're gonna play games and tell stories here" I would probably not be averse to joining in.
Putting it in that context though EL it does make a lot more sense.
I don't hate it. I just didn't enjoy the story in written form. Take out the extraneous and streamline it, like the movies did, and I thought it was great, and the core story threads I enjoyed. But in the books they were heavily buried under all the lore, backstory, and worldbuilding - which on their own were great, but when you go in expecting a story and instead find yourself sifting through a setting book, it's distracting at best.
At the risk of being merely contrary:
I don't think Middle-Earth is a good world for gaming in at all, for a number of reasons. The population is sparse and just about every living being ties into the metaplot. Talk about being overshadowed — just about any of the cool things you would want to play are unique, scarce, or overpowered.
On a different note, I think that seeing Tom Bombadil and Glaurfindel as "extraneous" characters is pretty much exactly what I meant upthread. If you're looking to read a fantasy novel with a decent plot and some good action, they're extraneous. But Tolkien is not for that, and so Tom Bombadil is actually where the meat is.
Also he could have worked quite well in the films. Robin Williams could have done it. (See his performance in the Adventures of Baron Muchausen for evidence.)
The opening sequence of Up destroys me everytime.Yeah, many "kid" movies we have make me cry, every time...I cried in "The Incredibles."
Sigh...
Oh so much.
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At the risk of being merely contrary:
I don't think Middle-Earth is a good world for gaming in at all, for a number of reasons. The population is sparse and just about every living being ties into the metaplot. Talk about being overshadowed — just about any of the cool things you would want to play are unique, scarce, or overpowered.
Middle Earth is a difficult setting to pull off in fantasy RPG. Even MERP had set their default setting a bit less than 1500 years before the War of The Ring, when both Gondor and Eriador were much more populated.
Cubicle's 7 The One Ring recently brought a breeze of freshness to Middle Earth by setting the default campaign time and location in between The Hobbit and LOTR and in Rhovanion where Elves, Men and Dwarves live side by side (Elf kingdom of Mirkwood, Laketown, Dale and the Lonely Mountain).
In addition to the relatively dense and diverse population, the fact that these locations are mentioned but not visited by the heroes of LOTR is liberating for the DM.
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You come off waaaaaay hostile, bro. Cool it, stop acting like you're telling someone they're having badwrongfun.I have zero interest in being challenged in video games, and I really don't get people who do. Seriously. What's the accomplishment there? Are you going to tell your boss you beat Halo on Legendary in one life? Is it going to score you a date with an attractive woman? Is it going to win you a trophy your family and friends give a crap about? No, no, and no.
Some challenge in a game is fun. (The 2008 Prince of Persia was so dull precisely because you couldn't die.) But I have better things to frustrate myself over than playing the same 1/2 hour chunk of Dark Souls just to say I did.
Are all your accomplishments judged purely on how they are perceived by others?
Interesting...
All right, now I think we're getting the point of the shun thread.
Shun! Shun! SHHHUUUUNNNN!
Although I'd like to point out that confession was sort of meant tongue in cheek. If you do enjoy beating games on Insane Hardcore Murder Mode, knock yourself out. To each his own.
Of course, my experience has always been a sort of snobbish disregard for those who don't. I understand this isn't indicative of everybody who enjoys playing that way, but those gamers---those 'Hardcore' gamers who cannot stand that video games have become accessible to the unwashed masses---irritate me to no end.
Yeah, I know, every hobby has them. But still, perhaps my rant came across a bit harsh because there's always seemed to be a stronger undercurrent of it among video gamers than anywhere else I've encountered.
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Some challenge in a game is fun. (The 2008 Prince of Persia was so dull precisely because you couldn't die.) But I have better things to frustrate myself over than playing the same 1/2 hour chunk of Dark Souls just to say I did.
I felt pretty accomplished when I was able to master Carry On My Wayward Son on Expert. Never did get past Hard on Through The Fire And The Flames however.
Oh so much.The opening sequence of Up destroys me everytime.Yeah, many "kid" movies we have make me cry, every time...I cried in "The Incredibles."
Sigh...
Absolutely it does. As does the ending.
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I love a good dose of DM's fiat in RPG. I find it bring a definite "colour" to a game. I never experienced that many horrible DM's fiat stories, so maybe my hands just didn't get burned bad enough...
Perhaps I should rather say "I love a dose of good DM's fiat", or "I love a dose of DM's good fiat".
Anyhow, as a DM, I make good use of my fiat, and I'm not hiding it. So far, either my fiat has been good enough for my players to complain, or else my players are too polite to complain...
You come off waaaaaay hostile, bro. Cool it, stop acting like you're telling someone they're having badwrongfun.I have zero interest in being challenged in video games, and I really don't get people who do. Seriously. What's the accomplishment there? Are you going to tell your boss you beat Halo on Legendary in one life? Is it going to score you a date with an attractive woman? Is it going to win you a trophy your family and friends give a crap about? No, no, and no.
Some challenge in a game is fun. (The 2008 Prince of Persia was so dull precisely because you couldn't die.) But I have better things to frustrate myself over than playing the same 1/2 hour chunk of Dark Souls just to say I did.
Are all your accomplishments judged purely on how they are perceived by others?
Interesting...
All right, now I think we're getting the point of the shun thread.
Shun! Shun! SHHHUUUUNNNN!
Although I'd like to point out that confession was sort of meant tongue in cheek. If you do enjoy beating games on Insane Hardcore Murder Mode, knock yourself out. To each his own.
Of course, my experience has always been a sort of snobbish disregard for those who don't. I understand this isn't indicative of everybody who enjoys playing that way, but those gamers---those 'Hardcore' gamers who cannot stand that video games have become accessible to the unwashed masses---irritate me to no end.
Yeah, I know, every hobby has them. But still, perhaps my rant came across a bit harsh because there's always seemed to be a stronger undercurrent of it among video gamers than anywhere else I've encountered.
I'm not saying those people don't annoy me, and I'm not saying you're badwrong for playing any easy modes, I said you acted like far more of a snob then most those people you dislike.
I'm not saying those people don't annoy me, and I'm not saying you're badwrong for playing any easy modes, I said you acted like far more of a snob then most those people you dislike.
It's called exaggerating for effect.
I'm not saying those people don't annoy me, and I'm not saying you're badwrong for playing any easy modes, I said you acted like far more of a snob then most those people you dislike.It's called exaggerating for effect.
What effect? Seeming like they just had a bad argument and want to take it out on a forum? Especially online where there's no tone of voice of facial expressions.
That's how I read it anyway. I didn't see offense at all and was wondering what all the fuss was about. I figured the over-the-topness of the reply was intentional.
Maybe time for everybody to step back and chiiiiiiiiiillllll.
I find people who use emoticons on message boards incredibly irritating.o.O?
They're much harder to use in RL.
This reminds me of an episode of Wait Don't Tell Me, a radio show in which players have to identify one absurd but true fact among two other fictitious absurdities. I don't remember the question that goes with the answer you reminded me of, but the answer was "Abe Lincoln was the first recorded user of the emoticon. In a speech, he wrote [I think it was the colon-parenthesis smiley face] in his notes as a sort of personal memo."
And I'm 90% sure that was the true fact. :o
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Absolutely it does. As does the ending.Oh so much.The opening sequence of Up destroys me everytime.Yeah, many "kid" movies we have make me cry, every time...I cried in "The Incredibles."
Sigh...
I was surprised to find myself so affected by seeing the orphan girls wave to Gru through the letterbox of the cardboard 'Box of Shame', where discarded orphans were placed when rejected by their foster parents.
Aaaaawwwwwww!!!
Confession: I frequently cry in movie theatres. The movie doesn't even have to be that sad or tear-jerking. I'm easily moved by scene of friendship, trust, or people just doing the "right thing". My older boy is rather sensitive too, especially when he sees me being emotional.I do too. I have to fight tears in movie theaters all the time. In fact even commercials can make my eyes tear up. There is a gum commercial on right now that shows a father making origami cranes for his daughter over the years from the gum wrappers, and at his daughter's eventual trip to college while loading her car, he drops a box and dozens of cranes fall out. I can't watch that commercial without tearing up. My daughter has a glass globe of a thousand cranes I folded for her.
The opening sequence of Up destroys me everytime.
I'm pretty sure the only people who didn't tear up at least a little are those without tear ducts.