So right now our party has been in town for a few days, and the big market season is coming up soon. The town has a few diamond in the rough type items and supplies, but since the port town has no new merchants yet, due to seasons, it's just money circling around. There will soon be a giant influx of money and product in town shortly though. As such, I want to have the party treasury, and the party as a whole get any and all items, equipment, whatnot they'll want or need for a while, because when we leave the town it'll be many a days travel to the next city and beyond. I figure we have at most 3-4 weeks before most merchants come into town and the town becomes a big hodge lodge of shopping and festivities.
We have many of the basic mundane items, but even then were still low on money. We're only level 4 yet we don't have more than 200gp, on hand, and maybe 200-300 gp worth of items and equipment. The party loot has only 10 gp in it currently.
I plan on giving about 1/4-1/3 of my own money to the party loot to help it out. The party loot needs loads more money/items, and as a whole so does the party. Magic is a taboo of many sorts in this world. So spells are pretty much out, unless very low level, and magic items are not ever seen except in more rarer circumstances.
Besides crafting items, which takes to long for the little profit,mans it still depends on demand for sales, and profession rolls, what other ways are there to get money without leaving town?
We can take odd jobs and do little adventures to get money, but right now we just got by the skin of our teeth in the last big battle adventuring, and a party member just got killed. So I'm looking for low risk, high gain money ideas. I'm the party leader and the only person right now thinking LONG term, so the party doesn't know of this yet, or that I'm kicking money in.
So any ways to help is amazingly insightful.
Thanks.
TL;DR- need money making help for party loot and for party members in a low/ taboo magic world.
Sounds like the whole point of this is that you shouldn't have any substantial amount of gold what so ever.
Stealing is always an option if you don't mind the consequences. A world with low magic? No shopkeeper is going to have a permanent Alarm spell on their shop or armory. Find out the normal routes that the guard take around town and approximate how long you have, plan out a heist!
On the flip side enlist as mercenary's for the local Town guard. Towns always have problems, that's why there are adventurers. Or do towns have problems because of adventurers? Either way gathering information about the local big wigs and working for either the morally inclined or grey is an option.
Besides some home mechanics that you have to talk to with the GM there isn't much you can do. Ultimate Campaign has some rules about running an inn or some other shop, or build your own kingdom where magic is allowed! Just be creative, it's not like you're playing against the GM. Right?
Get your GM to buy the NPC Codex, then go around mugging every beggar you see. Seriously, the carry 200gp on them if you check their stat block.
Set up an ambush point outside of town and practice banditry on the merchants as they travel to the town.
Then, offer to the town to track down the bandits and bring them to justice. Find some scapegoats, kill them, frame them with some of the loot you stole, and go claim your reward and fame for ending the bandit problem.
I don't think I understand what you feel like you need to buy if you can't buy magic items. Without magical items, you pretty much just need some armor and a few masterwork weapons each.
mplindustries: They have 200-300 gp worth of equipment. They really really really would benefit from more cash. It's really easy to put 2000 gp towards mundane equipment as a martial, and at least 1000 gp as a caster.
200-300 gp means they're each literally poorer than the beggars.
My suggestion would be to talk to your GM. This wealth amount is _reeaaaally_ far from what the game expects, so either:
1. They want you to make money and has an idea about how you could do that or
2. They want you to stay dirt poor, in which case I really hope they've thought things through in terms of balance and challenges.
Gm has the npc codex and has been using it. Not sure though my character would approve of stealing, especially from a beggar being a LN monk. Also money will improve as we go out to do more bigger and riskier stuff, just like any adventurer. Prior to this we were in the forest full survival mode. So the town is the first settlement we've been to. I don't think its the gm's intention fur us to have such low money right now It kind of makes sense considering our beginning circumstances. However, we do need more money and outside of creating, stealing from beggars, I'm not sure how.
Magic is taboo in certain aspects. We have possible quests we can do its just that my character in particular wants to figure some in town ways to make quick money, or a large amount with more time invested.
I've heard about the buy a ladder sell 2 10' poles trick. And the fabricate black lotus field into poison.
At next session I'll spend some time with the gm 1 on 1 to figure out some of this.
I would think most of us have e laundry list of pretty much must have mundane items, but I thought wrong. I had to give one of my extra bar of soap to a fellow PC because he reeked and so nobody would sell him a bar. And yet, stuff like that happens, because some players do a generalization of what they have, and others have detailed lists of stuff. Sometimes the little thingselude them.
Regardless, I think I might have all the players ever try to get a well paying job temporarily till the market booms, or somehow do whatever it is they have to within not breaking the law. Will they? Doubtful. So I'll join the guards on the archery posts. Since the town is in the middle of an expansive forest, there would be a bier need for ranged guardsman vs. close range. I already have a contact with the Captain, so I'll use that.
Any other ideas?
Thanks so much for all the tips thus far.
For some odd reason so far it seems to be.
We have 6-8 players that show up weekly. So when we did the big dividing of the 2 times we had large influx of items to sell, we got taxed then sold the remaining stuff at half value. After all that, divide it by 6-8 players and after 2 times we have about what I listed, no more than 200 for the richest in the party, and no more than 200 for individual loot.
When we hit the bandit camp outpost a few days ago we got a dozen or so pints of oil, flares, smokestacks, and other items like weapons and the sort. Crates of food, dishes, and other looted stuff. We took the tax hit, then sold for half, then divided it up by 6-8. Again didn't turn out to be much.
I think for now unless we adventure, and quickly so, or get jobs or crafting, those seem like the only real options my character would do. Other party members if I hinted at needing more money, of which they already know, but I'm talking 1000's of gp., might be inclined to help out. Otherwise they will each be doing their own thing to get money, most of which are crafting a few items, but not even for selling, for personal use. Which is fine, but we can always do that AFTER the festivities. Unless of course they wish to leave town and do a quest. Which is fine but has many risks compared to what were stocked up for really.
First of all, your ability to raise the money you want is determined by your GMs interest therein. If he don't want you to have more a this point, you are not going to earn them one way or the other.
That said, my suggestion for your character, being the lawful kind, and sounding like a fellow that genuinly wants to help his party members: Take up a loan.
It is going to cost you in the long run. It might even get nasty, if the people you loan from turn out to be morally dubious (yet not kill on sight evil). But it could allow your character to raise money fast to help the group, yet sacrificing something in the future himself.
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You mentioned you can do little adventures for some money. That would be your best solution. If you are worried about not being equipped for the side adventures ask to be paid half up front and half on completion. It worked for Han Solo and Chewbacca.
Besides you are adventures not shop keepers. If you are not careful you will end up in a game of papers and paychecks.
Well the high tax actually is part of a plot for the town. And as for the low money, the GM did say that because the market season hasn't started yet, it is low money right now, and it's even tighter with the taxes. So I'm actually somewhat ok with our circumstances at the moment. I'm trying to find ways to get over them quickly and smoothly.
Then again we have only been out of the forest surviving it for like 4 days now with one job done. Still certain things that I would think be a little easier to find or make for myself or other party members so we could turn a profit when in town turned out to be more difficult than originally thought.
There is a job board and we already did one of the requested job, the bandits. But like most of you said we got taxed. One of the players, the rogue actually, of course:) came to me and told me that we have to lessen the tax burden. So we had him go to a contact of his and help us smuggle the stuff in at a 20% tax. We then lessened the burden further by having everyone have as much of our incoming cargo on them, so they could just walk in without issue or tax. It was kind of funny having the dwarf cleric who only uses his hammer (I think) have multiple daggers, a spear, and a short bow being grumpy the whole way through the tax process.
For now I'm going to try to convince the party to give 10% of any funds they make to the party loot fund, at least for this short period. Also, see if any of them, want to join the guard, I'm sure one or two might, but the others will probably get the hint and get some sort of revenue going when we're in town and not doing jobs for the next few weeks. Either that or try to see if there are any 'unlisted' jobs that the lord or someone else might want done. We will eventually might deal with the lord, but if we do, it'll have to be soon before the market influx because the the new people will get only get angry over a 30% tax and that will become its own headache for the town. The next closest town that we could go to is a few days travel and sir are two fortifications there, one purely dwarf, one elven. So those seem out of the picture for now.
The job board has a few listed jobs on it some much more lucrative than the others, but since every week we might have a full party or be down 2-3 players, doing some of the riskier jobs, of which they all are, for right now, is a bit of a turnoff. Even still I think most of the party wants to do another job before the market goes up, so well see how that goes.
I can't stop players from doing their own thing, don't want to. But I will do everything I can to make sure we have funds to purchase anything above some of the norm and what's in town, and possibly sell stuff we get or make to get money and supplies to head out of town.
I'll see how it goes next session. I'll have to put aside a good portion of time with the GM to work a few things out. Thanks for the input.
Sounds like the local lord has all the money. Maybe you should don some masks and beat up some tax collectors.
I was able to talk briefly throughout the night tonight to ask some questions and work one or two kinks out with the DM, the game is on Thursday.
I will probably be able to join the town guard or get some other job there. A few other players werent keen at all to give 10% of their incoming loot from whatever it may be to the party funds for special purchases in the future. They wanted to keep their own money for them. Ugh...
So now, I'm going to show up a half hour earlier to the game, talk to the GM privately, and basically do my own little missions or what not, or do a job or multiple jobs, without the party needing to know. The party is currently my zen archer, barbarian, another monk (rarely), a gunslinger, a cleric, a rogue, and an oracle (rarely). The magus just bit-the-dust and player is gonna bring in a new one next session. So on a good day 8 players, bad 5-6 players. Since right now most of us are doing our own little thing in town right now, nobody is really keeping track of where people are, which is fine for what I need to do.
For most of the day I'm crafting new arrows and improving on others. And other bowman type stuff, since the DM allows a lot of house ruling of certain things, especially crafting. For the other 8 hours I'm awake I figure I'll take on a job for the guard or some other job that will have good pay.
(separate issue: anybody know of any good basic business/ merchant economical game theory books or sites?)
Another player and I had started to get into a slight disagreement about how we should handle the merchants. He wants us to sell stuff now and buy late in the market season for cheap stuff. It's about 4-5 months long. And stay in town most of that time.
My solution was to make money now, sell early in the market and buy the specialty or rare items, since those will typically go first and fast. Then do some adventuring, and then sell what we don't want in town or even keep a few gem items, and buy at end of the market season when stuff is cheaper. By the end of all that we'll have loads of stuff, plus plenty of money from the high profit margins we'd make to fully head out of this area, if we didn't already.
Regardless of that conundrum of itself, any other tips would be appreciated. Until Thursday though, there isn't much more for me to do right now.
So there is a 30% tax on the retail value, and then you sell your items at 50% of retail? So say you bring 1000 gp of loot in to town, are you taxed 300gp? And then you sell the 1000 gp of loot for 500gp, leaving you with a net 200gp after taxes? If so, that's effectively a 60% tax rate.
A 30% tax rate seems pretty high. You should move to a new town. I'm surprised merchants are going to travel to this town. They will have to pay a 30% tax on everything they bring into town. They will need to raise their prices to cover the added expense.
Exactly. And yes that is exactly what has been happening. The lord of the town has increased it to unreasonable heights. Closest town is about 5 days travel.
1000 gp of loot coming into town. Taxed 30%... 700 gp of loot left. 700/2= 350 gp after selling stuff. 350gp divided between 6-8 players= :( low money.... Avg 50gp each.
As for the merchants, I plan to sell some stuff to them OUTSIDE of town, and to possibly let some of them know of the taxes. They won't turn around, but they will re-asses their prices. Possibly even allow me a discount, early purchases, or something. Also, perhaps I could help smuggle their stuff in somehow to also lessen the blow.
Demontroll is right. If you start doing things in the foreground (gate taxes and such), you're going to have to throw out the notion of fixed pricing from the rulebooks. The merchant has to pass on his tax burden, so 1000gp worth of goods suddenly becomes 1300gp worth with a 30% tax burden.
Also, if there is a 'market day', there's no reason you can't sell most loot at 100% value. This isn't a case of 'quick sale for easy cash while the merchant makes the good profit'; on a market day you ARE THE MERCHANT. Set down a blanket and go retail.
And if merchants were taxed 30% of 'book value' at the gate, they'd never enter the town, because they have no guarantee of sales. Taxing by value of goods is prohibitively difficult anyways (appraise a merchant's entire stock? When a market is going to have lots and lots of merchants?)
Merchants would be taxed thusly: "You want to set up a stall? That'll be X gold pieces for a blanet space, Y for a booth or tent, Z for a structure."
People entering town for market would be taxes like this: "You want to go to the market? It's X silvers per leg, Y for a cart."
The thing is, most merchants might have to put up with the taxes right now, because they can't go to the neighboring towns to the west and as for to the east those 2 fortifications are strictly that, fortifications. Their not big on markets, and if so, not this amount of merchants. this town is the only real town they go to for the market season. Of which is months of time, not just a single day or weekend. As for guarantee, true. They don't have a guarantee to sell stuff, but then again no merchant does either, regardless of circumstances. I doubt they'll travel this far, and then hear about the now higher taxes and turn around. But who knows, anything is possible.
So we either overthrow the lord somehow, or force him to lower the taxes. Otherwise, we try to help out the merchants somehow to help save us on money, and make new contacts, or smuggle their stuff in somehow.
(Just had a crazy idea how, but will need to work on it more, and won't write it here, in case DM or other players from game read this).
Even if the merchants have no other choice, neither do their customers. So that 1000gp of goods will be sold for 1300gp if he gets hit with a 30% gate tax. That's basic economics.
Also, where are these merchants coming in from? Because long travel times equal large expenses for merchants (animals to feed, drivers to pay, guards), which means higher prices all around. This is why RAW keeps it simple, because once you go the economic simulator route there's tons of things to consider.
What I really don't understand is why the PCs don't just leave the area and sell their goods somewhere more reasonable. I mean really, why wait around for months to sell your goods? Why winter over in that podunk town? If the closest town is 5 days away, that's nothing. Assuming there's only one main road going to this armpit community, leaving just before market season, trading along the road (tax free!) and never coming back seems the no-brainer option.
Forgery for tax stamps
smuggling for items....
Your biggest problem here is justifying why a LN Monk is sidestepping the Law by being a smuggler, unless the Lord f the Land is a Bad Guy.
Monks are lawful because their lifestyle requires mental and physical discipline. Following the law is not required.
@Heimdall666 Did that. We have a contact that can get us in for 20% tax. I know since they will have people sell it, those people need to make profit, which is fine, but I'm not gonna pay that higher 30%'anymore if we use them.
As for my monk, he is very VERY of the Buddhist philosophy and religious mindset and background. He is likely to help out a poor friend just as much as he would to the very person who just tried to kill him. Just as easily has he renders simple instances into complex figurations and mental thoughts and questions, he takes the very convoluted things in life and simplifies them for a child to understand. He also see that the town is in dire need of help of sorts, but there are many factors in play and right now we have practically no influence since we're only have been here for a few days thus far. He is helping people of the town directly more than the lord is, so by him smuggling his stuff in, it actually is more beneficial to the people, since they will see the money, not the lord who is a bad guy.
@Helic some of the pcs are a bit afraid of going back into the forest, and deeper to get to the next town, which is way worse then what we dealt with before. Others arent sure, ormdont care. We have jobs we can do but most of them are terrible for us to do right now with our supplies and level.
As for the merchants, I'm not sure where they are coming from, but I don't believe it's from the closest settlement based ona few details from the GM. Even if they are, I think many of players want to do this town scneraio and turn it into our first arc versus using it as a stepping stone to the first real adventure. Also, some want to stay in town and have more of the campaign be in town style versus expanding out and seeing new wondrous things and do things as such.
Regardless, we haven't had a consensus yet on what were doing yet. I figure I'll give them another few days to let off some steam and do what they want before I try to hold a little group gathering and do a rundown of what our priorities are what what our goals and such will be. Ever since day one we've been GOGOGO practically. And the town right now is our first break since we started. So getting involved in political stuff right now isn't at the top of priority list as a player. My PC however wants to make it a priority, and as such will probably suggest we try to do something at least for the incoming merchants. We help them out, they'll help us out.
@ Helic Some people take that literally, and play thusly. We now know Grizzly isnt playing that monk.
Grizzly, maybe the taxes and prices are for newcomers, once you become more well known by doing some favors about town things will improve. Also, having the person with the highest diplomacy negotiate the selling prices will help out too. remember adventuring in the spooky forest will get you more than town, usually.
Just to clarify, your stating that my monk isn't being played as of sound mental and physical discipline since he's using alternate methods? Or is? Not sure what your saying.
I think it's pretty likely that if we were to somehow work for the lord through the town, then we could get a tax break. Problem is my monk and a few others wouldn't want to directly for him to get a break. Perhaps working in the town does, I'll have to see. Still, kicking him out/killing him is probably the direction the party might be thinking based on a few opinions from them. However that doesn't seem immediate, unless of course they want to do that quickly and then have the taxes lowered so to have merchants come in with more stuff.
The lord has about a dozen or 2 guards with him at all times. He knows he's not totally well liked so he protects himself accordingly. There is also a close by neighboring troll, that is actually the main champion fighter for the weekly underground fights. Not sure if the lord directly controls him in any fashion, but if he does in some capacity that's a whole other barrel of fish to deal with when going up against the lord and his men.
And after all that, I still think we'll need money, for out of town adventuring even if we help the town, because many of them will want there stuff back if possible or compensated, so there's less likely a chance they'll give us a big reward. I don't like to assume things, especially in this campaign. Anything can happen.
Otherwise it could possibly start all over again in some other town, and yet we just sorta freed the previous town and had the taxes go back to normal and we left that. Doesn't seem smart. So there are multiple,factors to plan out for, and hopefully I can get answers from the DM and players as well easily so as not to waste time with them about all this. Unfortunately, every game for other pllayers has something like this happen for there needs to be a little group discussion to hash details out. This also leads me into wanting to make a group contract, but not sure how to go about that either or what to have drafted up specifically.
Spoke to the GM about some of the money issues. For my monk to join the guard he has to deal directly with the lord and considering our recent doings in and out of town I'm pretty sure the lord is gonna start keeping an eye on us. Either way, not keen on dealing with the lord directly. I can join the merchants guild to allow me to sell stuff in the town, but it's 100 gp for the month if I remember correctly. I think I'll work out a deal with the bowlers I know in town and see if I can sell my stuff through them for a price, or a cut of the profits. Considering I'm making custom arrows, since there is a fair amount of house ruling and homebrew sandboxing, which is good. It allows me to make custom arrows, quivers and the like. I figure I can just craft a lot if need be. There are however other jobs in the town which I'll find out more about next session.
Also, the town has been at a 30% tax for 3 years thus far, since the new lord. The merchants have dealt with this all these times so it's not the first time of hearing of this. Not sure how to smuggle them into town considering the town tax man and others are waiting for them. If they just pop through town without being received at the town boundary with the tax man with his scales and measuring tools, rn things will look extremely weird and the lord will probably investigate.
We're gonna go do one of the other jobs that's on the boards in a few days. We need to get a few more more supplies apparently because not everyone had enough weapons or specific items purchased theirnwaitingmto be made or whatnot. After that we wait for the merchants apparently.
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I will freely admit i did not read much of the stuff on this page since im a bit strapped for time but are guns allowed. If so the Gunsmith Feat allows you to make ammunition and black powder at 1/6 cost which you can turn around and sell it for 1/3 cost at a rate of 1day of work per 1000gp of crafting. Nice cash flow if i do say my self.