i have heard "over the top" used a bit on these boards since mythic adventures came out (not a lot mind you) as a blanket statement on why they don't care for it, but not a single person has listed specific examples on what exactly is "over the top".
now i just got mythic adventures earlier this week and have looked it over a bit, and i have yet to find anything i would consider "over the top", to me it seems like an outstanding way to make things more Epic and a great way to extend your characters beyond the traditional 20th level, i especially love that the tiers aren't tied to experience points, as they get a bit hard to track above 20th level.
so please give specific examples on why you consider Mythic Adventures "Over the top"
please keep you posts from becoming overly negative and treat the people that post with respect, if it gets contentious the web ninjas at Paizo are more then welcome to shut this thread down as there is more then enough negativity on the internets.
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Mmmmm dunno if its over the top, but you'd certainly know if there was a mythic baleful polymorph caster in your neighbourhood. "Pigs! You're all pigs!"
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Is being able to cast 2 spells in a round "over the top"?
To be fair, you don't need to be mythic to do that.
Is being able to cast 2 spells in a round "over the top"?To be fair, you don't need to be mythic to do that.That is true, which I realized after posting, so how about 3 spells: 1 standard action, 1 archmage swift action, and 1 quickened spell? Or 4 if you throw in an immediate?
Of course, the number of spells isn't the whole deal. The fact you don't have to know the spell is why it is THE ability to take.
But still, is that "over the top"?
Out of curiosity, how are you casting two swift action spells in a round? I love a good way to break things, but I'm pretty sure you can't use a swift action to cast a quickened spell, and an Archmage swift action in the same round. I'll grant you a standard action, a swift action, and an immediate action in the same turn, but you can do that in the core rules, if you ignore that pesky "one spell per round" thing that's in the system.
Is being able to cast 2 spells in a round "over the top"?To be fair, you don't need to be mythic to do that.That is true, which I realized after posting, so how about 3 spells: 1 standard action, 1 archmage swift action, and 1 quickened spell? Or 4 if you throw in an immediate?
Of course, the number of spells isn't the whole deal. The fact you don't have to know the spell is why it is THE ability to take.
But still, is that "over the top"?
I think you're restricted to only one swift action per round? So if the archmage uses his arcane surge he can't also cast a quickened spell he has prepared. Still ... if he could do four spells though - yeah, that might be a little wacky.
EDIT: Ninja'd by Chemlak!
It's us sneaky dark elves. We always pop up when you least expect it, and we're not subject to the law of conservation of ninjitsu.
Yup 1 swift action per round - immediate counts as swift for the round. A mythic caster can cast one spell standard and either a quickened or his archmage swift or an immediate. Two is pretty much the limit.
unless there were a spell you could hypothetically cast as a move action.
i wouldn't mind making a lesser version of quicken that beefed up a standard action spell's level by 2 to make it a move action.
[hasted spell] [metamagic]
prerequisite; quicken spell; Dexterity 15; Quick Draw
benefit; you have learned to lessen the benefit of your quickening in exchange for making it less taxing. when you cast a spell with a cast time of 1 standard action, you may cast the spell as a move action by using a spell slot 2 levels higher.
special; for the purpose of spontaneous casting, hasted spell is treated as quicken spell for the purpose of exceptions to increased casting time.
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It's so over the top, I get an extra +1 on stuff I already get +1 to.
It's so over the top, I get an extra +1 on stuff I already get +1 to.
another +1? hardly an issue. 5% greater chance of success that is more likely to help in mythic encounters, because trash will be slaughtered like sheep anyway.
i don't see how an extra +1 here or an extra spell there is over the top or anything. sounds like the people complaining about it are making a big to do about nothing:) which is what i suspected in the first place, i also find it amusing that none of them, despite given a forum for complaining have actually done so:) still great stuff everyone, i hope to hear more.
also thanks to everyone for remaining civil:)
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Mythic Adventures is full of crazy unrealistic powers (like fighters that can jump really high) so I avoid it. Incidentally, my 20th level non-mythic wizard casts time stop into four maximized delayed blast fireballs, then creates a greater demiplane out of the corpses of a small nation.
Mythic Adventures is full of crazy unrealistic powers (like fighters that can jump really high) so I avoid it. Incidentally, my 20th level non-mythic wizard casts time stop into four maximized delayed blast fireballs, then creates a greater demiplane out of the corpses of a small nation.
mythic bridges the gap a little, but not much
spellcasters don't get anything new they didn't already have
but martial characters gain mythic powers they should have had without requiring this system. like swimming for 6 consecutive days in platemail without sleeping beowulf style or jumping really high samurai jack style.
it takes 10 tiers to gain most of these powers, but most of the mythic stuff that should be standard options for martial characters and not some mythic thing include
Dex to damage with finesseable weapons
improved power attack damage
limited forms of pounce inspired by the Flash Step manuever used in a variety of anime
most of which are superhuman extraordinary abilities, but casters already gain some unrealistic stuff without this
5th level wizard, i can take a handful of sulfur, and use it to create a 45 foot diameter cube of fire from 600 feet away
9th level cleric, by blowing 5k gold worth of diamonds, i can ressurect a dead guy
17th level wizard, i can stop time
1st level wizard, i can create a cone of fire from my hands without gasoline
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The definition of Over The Top will change depending on who you're asking.
There are some that believe that Pathfinder Core is too over the top.
It's fully possible to become an immortal magic warrior who wanders from plane to plane righting wrongs. How is that NOT over the top?
you don't become immortal, just really tough. you can still die, some paths offer an auto rez as an option. but you aren't truly immortal. you might age slower if the DM approves
but there is a difference between eternal youth and immortality
and there is a difference between being hard to kill, and being unkillable.
a mythic warrior can kill another mythic warrior with a similar chance of success.
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It's fully possible to become an immortal magic warrior who wanders from plane to plane righting wrongs. How is that NOT over the top?
Yeah Pathfinder really jumped the shark when it started letting powerful heroes travel around having adventures and fighting evil.
P.S. my ninth-level cleric casts plane shift to visit the demiplane his older wizard sister just created.
another +1? hardly an issue.------> the point
-->Umbriere
i was translating it for the oblivious ones out there.
Mmmmm dunno if its over the top, but you'd certainly know if there was a mythic baleful polymorph caster in your neighbourhood. "Pigs! You're all pigs!"
Perfect example of Greecian inspiration in Mythic Adventures. Examples are literally all over the book.
Want over the top?
With Spells, you can put to sleep every living creature in 1 mile radius or stop the flow of time for a day except for you and a selected few. With some ability a fighter can create a dimensional lock by simply grappling a foe. Or, you can jump 500 feets high, grab a dragon by his tail and slamming him into the ground.
Call that an ordinary day.
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Mythic sleep limited to 8HD or less creatures. Yeah it can be a mile but that has an 8th tier limit - so somewhere around 14th - 16th level. Not seeing a lot of 8HD creatures being a threat here anyway - more of a story telling spell to my mind.
As for the grappling the dimension lock only works while grappling or pinning a foe and your opponent gets a will save. No worse than dimensional anchor - worse actually since this at least has a save and requires more than a ranged touch.
The last requires a successful grapple check, but since its a cool image I kind of like it. How you get to 500' I'm not sure, aerial assault gets you around 150'-200'. I do recall another ability that lets you leap vast distances, does it stack?
For a grapple check I'd rather use meat shield and ensure my grappled opponent is taking attacks meant for me.
To my mind there are some combinations that could become problematic - Impossible speed (+30' move, +10'/tier for 1 mythic point) and fleet warrior (full attack with move before or after). Run 100' and full attack, full attack and run 100'?
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Long time gamer here. I have been reviewing mythic adventures. I didn't see any thing that made me think it was over the top. I even invited my best player to look at it and since he didn't immediately ask me to implement the rules for it, I relaxed as he is "my find the broken stuff and exploit it" guy. He is always looking at supplements for material to exploit. I am always suspicious when he asks me to allow something new. So I don't think its over the top. Like anything in gaming the potential is there if the DM departs seriously from the game's inherent need for balance. In my opinion it is just another in a long colorful list of quality products that Paizo is renowned for.
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That said I imagine some abilities could be problematic
Base Mythic Abilities
Recuperation: At 3rd tier the ability to regain use/day abilities (incl spells) and 1/2 HP after 1 hour rest and 1MP. Will need a big rethink from GM since games reduce to what is equivalent to 1-2 encounter per day, leaving PC's far more capable of unleashing their best at every turn.
Archmage
Archmage Arcana - Wild arcana. Quicken spell with no requirements (even works for spontaneous casters), better still you can use any spell on your class list, not just the ones you know, is cast 2 levels higher, can use your metamagic feats and doesn't even use up one of your spell slots. And it's a default ability. This may well be OTT.
Four others strike me as potentials:
Competent Caster: With so much effort to make concentration harder this ability bypasses all that and lets you automatically succeed at concentration checks. This will be my Magus first path ability.
Couples Arcana: Allows 2 swift actions! Anytime you carry out an arcane type action (school power, bardic performance, bloodline power, hex or magus arcana) you get to activate another as a free action provided you need to expend MP to do it. Only caveat - must be same or faster action type - standard, move or swift. So in theory can use Wild arcana for example. Great for a magus.
Rapid Preparation: Leave a slot open, prepare a spell in the vacant slot as a swift action for 1MP. Although for 1MP I'd use the Wild Arcana ability over this any day.
Mirror Dodge: Immediate action, teleport 30', leaving an illusory duplicate that's destroyed. You take no damage. 1MP.
I'll add my thoughts on others as I read and ponder some more but that's a paltry 4/44 for the Archmage...
Want over the top?
With Spells, you can put to sleep every living creature in 1 mile radius or stop the flow of time for a day except for you and a selected few. With some ability a fighter can create a dimensional lock by simply grappling a foe. Or, you can jump 500 feets high, grab a dragon by his tail and slamming him into the ground.
Call that an ordinary day.
i know you can jump pretty high but please list the specific feats or abilities that allow the dragon slam, and how big a dragon are we talking? also i doubt you can jump 500ft and how is that all that different then say a 20th level monk falling 120ft without hardly a scratch.
i asked for specific examples after all:) you just gave generalities:)
and are you saying you don't like that you can go all WWF on a dragon? sounds like a fun day at the office to me:)
It's fully possible to become an immortal magic warrior who wanders from plane to plane righting wrongs. How is that NOT over the top?you don't become immortal, just really tough. you can still die, some paths offer an auto rez as an option. but you aren't truly immortal. you might age slower if the DM approves
but there is a difference between eternal youth and immortality
and there is a difference between being hard to kill, and being unkillable.
a mythic warrior can kill another mythic warrior with a similar chance of success.
I believe there's a universal path ability that makes you immortal concerning aging. "Longevity (Su): Upon taking this ability, you can no
longer die from old age. If you have penalties to your physical ability scores due to aging, you no longer take those penalties. You still continue to age, and you gain all the benefits to your mental ability scores."Then you can take Mythic Sustenance, making you no longer need to eat, breathe, or drink. And some paths give you an auto-rez after 24 hours. Effectively making you completely immortal. Then you can also grant divine spells to people, making you a god. A bit much, but I see no problem with this at the end of a character's run, retiring to godhood.
Most of the "over the top" things people have mentioned in this thread are all dealing with magic (mostly when it comes to arcane). But magic was already a bit "over the top" to begin with.
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It's fully possible to become an immortal magic warrior who wanders from plane to plane righting wrongs. How is that NOT over the top?you don't become immortal, just really tough. you can still die, some paths offer an auto rez as an option. but you aren't truly immortal. you might age slower if the DM approves
but there is a difference between eternal youth and immortality
and there is a difference between being hard to kill, and being unkillable.
a mythic warrior can kill another mythic warrior with a similar chance of success.
Longevity (Su): Upon taking this ability, you can no longer die from old age. If you have penalties to your physical ability scores due to aging, you no longer take those penalties. You still continue to age, and you gain all the benefits to your mental ability scores.
See Functional Immortality. The Everlasting legendary item quality does similar. That's available to everyone from 1st tier. Then you come back at later tiers automatically if a non-mythic source killed you.
Trickster'd.
Also, using an intelligent legendary item, you can gain Wish as an SLA at tier 9.
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Being called mythic, I assumed it was supposed to go over the top, while riding a flaming tiger.
That said, I do feel that casters got more than martials and would have liked some more gonzo fighter powers.
20 lvl + 10 mythic tiers means you are a demigod.
The only thing more powerful than you are the un-stat-ed true divines.
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It's fully possible to become an immortal magic warrior who wanders from plane to plane righting wrongs. How is that NOT over the top?
That's not over the top. That's about 2/3 of the way to the top.
Only over the top ability I found so far is RAW Mythic Vital Strike.
Oh, and combining that one x5 range increment with Penetrating shot on a gun. I shoot everyone in approximately a 1 mile line at once. (Edit: I forgot no max range. I shoot around the world, I just take some penalties...) Wait. Now I'm imagining this with a shotgun...
-Does the math-
Just the range increment one. I blast everyone in a 1000 foot cone. Heh. (Edit: This too. I can eventually envelop the world with 1 shotgun blast. lolololol)
At mythic rank 1 any melee warrior can move their speed and an attack (that bypasses all DR) as a swift action with Fleet Charge.
Essentially this means that every mythic melee warrior has pounce. Actually it's way better than pounce.
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I'm sorry, I hear "Over the Top", and I can't help but think about Sly Stallone arm-wrestling truckers.
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I've read the book cover to cover twice and some parts numerous times and all I see is some bloody awesome abilities that in a mythic style adventure would be great to use.
This stuff isn't for regular games and AP's. And in my opinion the only time their will be in-game issues with the material will be when used by inexperienced DM's. You know the ones, they let their players use broken combo's rather than say NO, that will unbalance my game.
If the playing field is level their shouldn't be any real issues.
Over the top:
I can deal an automatic 1k+ damage to any opponent that starts the round within 320' without rolling dice.
Mythic Vital Strike combined with the Champion path is just that good.
I'm curious as to how.
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Only over the top ability I found so far is RAW Mythic Vital Strike.
Oh, and combining that one x5 range increment with Penetrating shot on a gun. I shoot everyone in approximately a 1 mile line at once. (Edit: I forgot no max range. I shoot around the world, I just take some penalties...) Wait. Now I'm imagining this with a shotgun...
-Does the math-
Just the range increment one. I blast everyone in a 1000 foot cone. Heh. (Edit: This too. I can eventually envelop the world with 1 shotgun blast. lolololol)
This is beautiful. I need to do this if I ever do mythic.
From a crunch perspective I find the martials did get a bit from the Champion path (I haven't looked too far into the Guardian path, but I hear it shores up defenses decently well). MY personal favorite is: fleet charge/ the level 3 path "pounce" along with a couple Precision stacks and Always a chance. Most martial almost always have their primary attack auto-hit sans a 1. Now all of their attacks always hit. Then you add Maximized critical (which is, IMHO, plain better than critical master. The Auto-confirm is only nice if you have a chance of not confirming, and only costs 1 rather than 2 path abilities to max on a mythic) onto that, along with something like mythic improved critical. Yes I understand this is a huge investment that kicks in fairly late in the career, but it is a significant improvement; but yes wizards still trump then significantly.
I do like the martial flavor more. Chiefly Aerial Assault (not that this hasn't been used in my games before this), the non-barbarian spell sunder (cries for the loss of exclusivity to his precious barbarian), and Meat Shield .
The "over the top" (super powers so you can fight CR 30 stuff) options I'm fine with.
What I hate are the exclusive club "you must be this mythic to enter" type things.
"I am a regular paladin who has devoted my heart and soul to fighting evil, but my sword does not hurt this chimera because it is a mythic chimera!"
"I am a mythic paladin, so because I have the mythic adjective in front of my class, my mythic sword hurts the mythic chimera!"
Just sucks to be a level 20 wizard who spent his life researching and gaining power who is still less cool than a level 15 wizard also lucky enough to join the hair club for mythics.
Just take the feat that makes normals treated as mythics.
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The "over the top" (super powers so you can fight CR 30 stuff) options I'm fine with.
What I hate are the exclusive club "you must be this mythic to enter" type things.
"I am a regular paladin who has devoted my heart and soul to fighting evil, but my sword does not hurt this chimera because it is a mythic chimera!"
"I am a mythic paladin, so because I have the mythic adjective in front of my class, my mythic sword hurts the mythic chimera!"
Just sucks to be a level 20 wizard who spent his life researching and gaining power who is still less cool than a level 15 wizard also lucky enough to join the hair club for mythics.
That's kinda the point in legends and mythology. The one who has been touched by divinity is always more powerful than the most steadfast student of the martial or arcane schools.
Its also why you often have said master of the arts feel spurned because the gods-sponsored kid showed them up to the entire village, and now they're jealous/embarrassed/etc and feel pushed to seek even greater power (at whatever the cost!) just to earn back some of their dignity.
Boom, mythic antagonist.
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I'm curious as to how.Over the top:
I can deal an automatic 1k+ damage to any opponent that starts the round within 320' without rolling dice.
Mythic Vital Strike combined with the Champion path is just that good.
Spellcasting: This item allows its bearer to cast a limited
number of spells as spell-like abilities. This ability can be
taken more than once. Each time it’s taken, the bonded
creature gains 5 points to spend on selecting what
spells the item can cast. A spell costs a number of
points equal to its level (minimum 1). The bearer
can then activate the item to use each spell-like ability
once per day. By spending double the cost, the bearer can
use each spell-like ability three times per day. All spells
must come from the same class’s spell list. No spell can
have a level higher than the bonded creature’s tier. The
caster level for these spells is equal to double the bonded
creature’s tier. The save DC for these spells is equal to
10 + the spell level + the bonded creature’s tier.
This can be taken up to 9 times by tier 10.
9th level spells can be accessed at 7th tier via Mythic Paragon with CL 27 and DC 31.
I'm curious as to how.Over the top:
I can deal an automatic 1k+ damage to any opponent that starts the round within 320' without rolling dice.
Mythic Vital Strike combined with the Champion path is just that good.
Spellcasting: This item allows its bearer to cast a limited
number of spells as spell-like abilities. This ability can be
taken more than once. Each time it’s taken, the bonded
creature gains 5 points to spend on selecting what
spells the item can cast. A spell costs a number of
points equal to its level (minimum 1). The bearer
can then activate the item to use each spell-like ability
once per day. By spending double the cost, the bearer can
use each spell-like ability three times per day. All spells
must come from the same class’s spell list. No spell can
have a level higher than the bonded creature’s tier. The
caster level for these spells is equal to double the bonded
creature’s tier. The save DC for these spells is equal to
10 + the spell level + the bonded creature’s tier.This can be taken up to 9 times by tier 10.
9th level spells can be accessed at 7th tier via Mythic Paragon.
Erm... I was talking about the 1K damage >.>
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Erm... I was talking about the 1K damage >.>I'm curious as to how.Over the top:
I can deal an automatic 1k+ damage to any opponent that starts the round within 320' without rolling dice.
Mythic Vital Strike combined with the Champion path is just that good.
Spellcasting: This item allows its bearer to cast a limited
number of spells as spell-like abilities. This ability can be
taken more than once. Each time it’s taken, the bonded
creature gains 5 points to spend on selecting what
spells the item can cast. A spell costs a number of
points equal to its level (minimum 1). The bearer
can then activate the item to use each spell-like ability
once per day. By spending double the cost, the bearer can
use each spell-like ability three times per day. All spells
must come from the same class’s spell list. No spell can
have a level higher than the bonded creature’s tier. The
caster level for these spells is equal to double the bonded
creature’s tier. The save DC for these spells is equal to
10 + the spell level + the bonded creature’s tier.This can be taken up to 9 times by tier 10.
9th level spells can be accessed at 7th tier via Mythic Paragon.
Greater Vital Strike + Mythic Vital strike on a build that hits really hard. Two-Handed fighter making 2 Overhand Chops per round + Fleet Charge deals over 1200 damage just from static bonuses. Similar numbers can be reached with a smiting paladin or a raging barbarian. A charging cavalier can go even higher. A monk of the 4 winds won't hit quite as hard per hit, but could make 4 vital strikes in 1 round.
Combine with:
Always a Chance (Ex): You don’t automatically miss
when you roll a 1 on an attack roll.
Not difficult to get a +50 attack bonus with a fighter's first attack, which will hit anything in the game before dice are rolled.
Impossible Speed (Ex): Your base land speed increases
by 30 feet. In addition, if you expend one use of mythic
power, for 1 hour your base land speed increases by 10 feet
per mythic tier.
Gives you the additional movement speed. Or, you could just fly. Personal preference.