paizo.com Recent Posts in Dragon and Dungeon are going awaypaizo.com Recent Posts in Dragon and Dungeon are going away2013-09-27T09:42:19Z2013-09-27T09:42:19ZRe: Forums: 4th Edition: Dragon and Dungeon are going awayChris Lambertzhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q665&page=3?Dragon-and-Dungeon-are-going-away#1382013-09-27T18:43:14Z2013-09-27T18:43:14Z<p><span class=messageboard-ooc>Locking. We're done here.</span></p>Locking. We're done here.Chris Lambertz2013-09-27T18:43:14ZRe: Forums: 4th Edition: Dragon and Dungeon are going awayScott Bettshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q665&page=3?Dragon-and-Dungeon-are-going-away#1372013-09-27T18:41:07Z2013-09-27T18:41:07Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Zahariel wrote:</div><blockquote>Maybe I am a minority. Does that make me any less valuable of a client?</blockquote><p>From a standpoint of making business decisions affecting their entire subscriber base, yes. Does this surprise you?
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>In any case, I wonder how many 4E players will move on to DDN. It might be 100% (which is probably what WotC is hoping for), it might be less.</blockquote><p>It certainly will not be 100%. It never is.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>I'm wondering if DDN will continue to offer support for 4E once the new edition rolls out. If it does, cookies to them. If it doesn't, then those who played 4E but don't plan to move to DDN (however many that may be) will get a rough deal once again. </blockquote><p>If 4e players still have a way to access the various content databases (whether hosted by WotC or not), they'll actually have it pretty good.Zahariel wrote:Maybe I am a minority. Does that make me any less valuable of a client?
From a standpoint of making business decisions affecting their entire subscriber base, yes. Does this surprise you? Quote:In any case, I wonder how many 4E players will move on to DDN. It might be 100% (which is probably what WotC is hoping for), it might be less.
It certainly will not be 100%. It never is. Quote:I'm wondering if DDN will continue to offer support for 4E once the new edition rolls out. If...Scott Betts2013-09-27T18:41:07ZRe: Forums: 4th Edition: Dragon and Dungeon are going awayScott Bettshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q665&page=3?Dragon-and-Dungeon-are-going-away#1362013-09-27T18:38:12Z2013-09-27T18:38:12Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Gorbacz wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Scott Betts wrote:</div><blockquote>And, most importantly, we'll have a very good idea of which of us is correct in February or March, when your theory would lead us to expect a mammoth drop-off in subscriber numbers, which we know we can track with fair degree of reliability through the DDI community group. There are currently more than 73,000 members. I would be surprised if that number dropped below 65,000 by March, and astonished if we saw it go below 40,000. </blockquote>Sorry, but that group's membership count is of no relevance. I've just joined the group, and I am not, and never was, a D&DI subscriber. So I've bumped your statistics for arguing with other people. No need for thanks, I'm cool just like that. </blockquote><p>Then that's a change to the new community site. Prior to this last month, the DDI group was restricted to DDI members, who were automatically added and removed based on their subscription status (and whether or not they were registered with the community site). Prior to the switch, the group's membership was in the 70,000-80,000 range. If group membership is now open, and if members are no longer automatically added and removed based on subscription status, then you're correct; it can no longer be used to reliably track DDI membership. Of course, it begs the question of who, exactly (besides you to prove a point), is going to join that group voluntarily, since it has precious little activity beyond being used to share DDI downtime announcements with members.Gorbacz wrote:Scott Betts wrote:And, most importantly, we'll have a very good idea of which of us is correct in February or March, when your theory would lead us to expect a mammoth drop-off in subscriber numbers, which we know we can track with fair degree of reliability through the DDI community group. There are currently more than 73,000 members. I would be surprised if that number dropped below 65,000 by March, and astonished if we saw it go below 40,000.
Sorry, but that group's...Scott Betts2013-09-27T18:38:12ZRe: Forums: 4th Edition: Dragon and Dungeon are going awayScott Bettshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q665&page=3?Dragon-and-Dungeon-are-going-away#1352013-09-27T18:33:41Z2013-09-27T18:33:41Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Kthulhu wrote:</div><blockquote><p>So it's akin to me saying "Most gamers don't care about Kinect." Only with a lot less support.</p>
<p>Nope, you don't get away with this one, Betts. STFU. </blockquote><p>I'm not sure what your problem is, Kthulhu, but I'm going to ask you to give your tone here some serious examination.Kthulhu wrote:So it's akin to me saying "Most gamers don't care about Kinect." Only with a lot less support.
Nope, you don't get away with this one, Betts. STFU.
I'm not sure what your problem is, Kthulhu, but I'm going to ask you to give your tone here some serious examination.Scott Betts2013-09-27T18:33:41ZRe: Forums: 4th Edition: Dragon and Dungeon are going awayLegendariushttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q665&page=3?Dragon-and-Dungeon-are-going-away#1342013-09-27T18:18:50Z2013-09-27T18:18:50Z<p>Here's hoping the 4E tools survive with DDI and we have more tools added over time including edition neutral ones (map makers for example) as well as edition specific ones (Next character generator).</p>
<p>I'd be shocked if they don't resume Dragon and Dungeon magazines once they finalize on the rules for Next. I can imagine if Next were to come out at Gen Con 2014, then we might see new Dragon and Dungeon issues as early as next August or September.</p>
<p>Also, it would be nice to have complete any edition to any edition conversion guides available - ideally outside of DDI. This has particular value as they continue to offer more and more of their old product catalog available for purchase in PDF form on dndclassics.</p>Here's hoping the 4E tools survive with DDI and we have more tools added over time including edition neutral ones (map makers for example) as well as edition specific ones (Next character generator).
I'd be shocked if they don't resume Dragon and Dungeon magazines once they finalize on the rules for Next. I can imagine if Next were to come out at Gen Con 2014, then we might see new Dragon and Dungeon issues as early as next August or September.
Also, it would be nice to have complete any...Legendarius2013-09-27T18:18:50ZRe: Forums: 4th Edition: Dragon and Dungeon are going awaySteve Geddeshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q665&page=3?Dragon-and-Dungeon-are-going-away#1332013-09-27T17:16:26Z2013-09-27T17:16:26Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Zahariel wrote:</div><blockquote><p> In any case, I wonder how many 4E players will move on to DDN. It might be 100% (which is probably what WotC is hoping for), it might be less.</p>
<p>I'm wondering if DDN will continue to offer support for 4E once the new edition rolls out. If it does, cookies to them. If it doesn't, then those who played 4E but don't plan to move to DDN (however many that may be) will get a rough deal once again. </blockquote><p>I'm curious about that too. I really liked the effort they made with their latest module (the adventure was statblock free and you could download what you needed based on your chosen system). I doubt it will continue, but it would be great if it did, IMO.
<p>I at least hope the 4E tools remain - that was always enough for me to stay subscribed. Everything else was a bonus for me.</p>Zahariel wrote:In any case, I wonder how many 4E players will move on to DDN. It might be 100% (which is probably what WotC is hoping for), it might be less.
I'm wondering if DDN will continue to offer support for 4E once the new edition rolls out. If it does, cookies to them. If it doesn't, then those who played 4E but don't plan to move to DDN (however many that may be) will get a rough deal once again.
I'm curious about that too. I really liked the effort they made with their latest...Steve Geddes2013-09-27T17:16:26ZRe: Forums: 4th Edition: Dragon and Dungeon are going awayZaharielhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q665&page=3?Dragon-and-Dungeon-are-going-away#1322013-09-27T12:59:04Z2013-09-27T12:59:04Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Scott Betts wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>It seems penalizing to these important customers to continue to charge them to access material and tools they have already payed for. </blockquote><p>They haven't "already payed for" them. They have paid for <i>temporary access</i> to those tools. That was made <i>abundantly</i> clear to you when you signed up.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>NEW content is what has kept them around all these years.</blockquote><p>Who? The minority of users who don't play 4e and subscribe only for the magazines?
</p>
</blockquote><p>Maybe I am a minority. Does that make me any less valuable of a client?
<p>In any case, I wonder how many 4E players will move on to DDN. It might be 100% (which is probably what WotC is hoping for), it might be less.</p>
<p>I'm wondering if DDN will continue to offer support for 4E once the new edition rolls out. If it does, cookies to them. If it doesn't, then those who played 4E but don't plan to move to DDN (however many that may be) will get a rough deal once again.</p>Scott Betts wrote:Quote:It seems penalizing to these important customers to continue to charge them to access material and tools they have already payed for.
They haven't "already payed for" them. They have paid for temporary access to those tools. That was made abundantly clear to you when you signed up. Quote:NEW content is what has kept them around all these years.
Who? The minority of users who don't play 4e and subscribe only for the magazines?
Maybe I am a minority. Does that make me...Zahariel2013-09-27T12:59:04ZRe: Forums: 4th Edition: Dragon and Dungeon are going awayGorbaczhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q665&page=3?Dragon-and-Dungeon-are-going-away#1312013-09-27T09:27:59Z2013-09-27T09:27:59Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Scott Betts wrote:</div><blockquote>And, most importantly, we'll have a very good idea of which of us is correct in February or March, when your theory would lead us to expect a mammoth drop-off in subscriber numbers, which we know we can track with fair degree of reliability through the DDI community group. There are currently more than 73,000 members. I would be surprised if that number dropped below 65,000 by March, and astonished if we saw it go below 40,000. </blockquote><p>Sorry, but that group's membership count is of no relevance. I've just joined the group, and I am not, and never was, a D&DI subscriber. So I've bumped your statistics for arguing with other people. No need for thanks, I'm cool just like that.Scott Betts wrote:And, most importantly, we'll have a very good idea of which of us is correct in February or March, when your theory would lead us to expect a mammoth drop-off in subscriber numbers, which we know we can track with fair degree of reliability through the DDI community group. There are currently more than 73,000 members. I would be surprised if that number dropped below 65,000 by March, and astonished if we saw it go below 40,000.
Sorry, but that group's membership count is of...Gorbacz2013-09-27T09:27:59ZRe: Forums: 4th Edition: Dragon and Dungeon are going awaySteve Geddeshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q665&page=3?Dragon-and-Dungeon-are-going-away#1292013-09-27T09:04:49Z2013-09-27T09:04:49Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Scott Betts wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
The number of people who make use of DDI in such a way that the only benefit they derive from their subscription is reading a new online magazine twice a month is so low that it's absurd for them to be demanding that WotC lower the subscription price. </blockquote><p>That's probably true but doesn't change the fact that there's been a drop off in value (as there is anytime a product takes away a feature (regular, new material) without replacing it with anything.
<p>I just think you're fighting the wrong battle. The DDI is ridiculously good value and will remain so (I'm certainly not suggesting they should reduce their price). Some customers will leave (like Zahariel) but that's not because they're being treated badly, it's just that the company is no longer making something they personally want. (Especially if Wotc are offering "partial redemptions" as you outlined above).</p>
<p>In my view, one big change at WotC in the last couple of years has been the transparency and clearly announced future plans surrounding the game. I think this is an example of that and I think it's a good thing. The value of DDI just dropped marginally (for some) but that's life - provided there's no shifting ground nobody is being punished, they can just make an informed choice about where to spend their money (the way it's supposed to work).</p>Scott Betts wrote:The number of people who make use of DDI in such a way that the only benefit they derive from their subscription is reading a new online magazine twice a month is so low that it's absurd for them to be demanding that WotC lower the subscription price.
That's probably true but doesn't change the fact that there's been a drop off in value (as there is anytime a product takes away a feature (regular, new material) without replacing it with anything. I just think you're...Steve Geddes2013-09-27T09:04:49ZRe: Forums: 4th Edition: Dragon and Dungeon are going awayScott Bettshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q665&page=3?Dragon-and-Dungeon-are-going-away#1282013-09-27T07:53:16Z2013-09-27T07:53:16Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Gorbacz wrote:</div><blockquote>Numbers and sources Scott, please. Indicate, in quantifiable means, that said number is "so low". You're the "you have no evidence, show me quantifiable proof or STFU" person, it's only proper that you're beholden to the same standards as you hold everybody else to. </blockquote><p>I haven't got any numbers to back that up. It's my own estimation. More to the point, I don't need any numbers because the people claiming that WotC ought to reduce the price of the subscription have the burden of proof on them to show that their ranks are large enough to justify WotC dropping DDI's price point. They're demanding a change; they need to justify it.
<p>Do you believe that a majority of DDI subscribers do not play or run 4e games? I think that such a belief is absurd. I think WotC knows this. And I think it is a large part of the reason they don't feel that it's necessary to lower the price of a DDI subscription. And, most importantly, we'll have a very good idea of which of us is correct in February or March, when your theory would lead us to expect a mammoth drop-off in subscriber numbers, which we know we can track with fair degree of reliability through the DDI community group. There are currently more than 73,000 members. I would be surprised if that number dropped below 65,000 by March, and astonished if we saw it go below 40,000.</p>Gorbacz wrote:Numbers and sources Scott, please. Indicate, in quantifiable means, that said number is "so low". You're the "you have no evidence, show me quantifiable proof or STFU" person, it's only proper that you're beholden to the same standards as you hold everybody else to.
I haven't got any numbers to back that up. It's my own estimation. More to the point, I don't need any numbers because the people claiming that WotC ought to reduce the price of the subscription have the burden of...Scott Betts2013-09-27T07:53:16ZRe: Forums: 4th Edition: Dragon and Dungeon are going awayGorbaczhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q665&page=3?Dragon-and-Dungeon-are-going-away#1272013-09-27T07:24:01Z2013-09-27T07:24:01Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Scott Betts wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
<p>The number of people who make use of DDI in such a way that the only benefit they derive from their subscription is reading a new online magazine twice a month is so low that it's absurd for them to be demanding that WotC lower the subscription price. </blockquote><p>Numbers and sources Scott, please. Indicate, in quantifiable means, that said number is "so low". You're the "you have no evidence, show me quantifiable proof or STFU" person, it's only proper that you're beholden to the same standards as you hold everybody else to.Scott Betts wrote:The number of people who make use of DDI in such a way that the only benefit they derive from their subscription is reading a new online magazine twice a month is so low that it's absurd for them to be demanding that WotC lower the subscription price.
Numbers and sources Scott, please. Indicate, in quantifiable means, that said number is "so low". You're the "you have no evidence, show me quantifiable proof or STFU" person, it's only proper that you're beholden to the same...Gorbacz2013-09-27T07:24:01ZRe: Forums: 4th Edition: Dragon and Dungeon are going awayScott Bettshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q665&page=3?Dragon-and-Dungeon-are-going-away#1262013-09-27T06:34:26Z2013-09-27T06:34:26Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">MMCJawa wrote:</div><blockquote> As a check....I did just check to see how well the announcement has gone over on other forums. There are certainly people who agree with you Betts, but I seem to be seeing and equal amount of disappointment/threats of cancellation. While forums can only capture a snapshot of the user base, I don't think you can dismiss that sentiment entirely. </blockquote><p>Online opinions on controversial topics self-select for disappointment. Contented people tend not to be anywhere near as likely to bother going online to express how adequately they feel the service meets their needs. The numbers, however, don't lie. If we start to see the majority of D&D Insider group members on the WotC community site disappear, then you'll have evidence that the user base is discontented.MMCJawa wrote:As a check....I did just check to see how well the announcement has gone over on other forums. There are certainly people who agree with you Betts, but I seem to be seeing and equal amount of disappointment/threats of cancellation. While forums can only capture a snapshot of the user base, I don't think you can dismiss that sentiment entirely.
Online opinions on controversial topics self-select for disappointment. Contented people tend not to be anywhere near as likely to...Scott Betts2013-09-27T06:34:26ZRe: Forums: 4th Edition: Dragon and Dungeon are going awayScott Bettshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q665&page=3?Dragon-and-Dungeon-are-going-away#1252013-09-27T06:33:23Z2013-09-27T06:33:23Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">MMCJawa wrote:</div><blockquote><p> You don't really need to play the 4E martyr card. Not everyone offering their opinion has some sort of deep-seated hatred for 4E, not to mention there are long term subscribers in this thread who clearly disagree with you. </p>
<p>Just because you don't consider it a loss of value, doesn't mean some contingent of subscribers won't feel it's a loss of value. Their opinions are just as valid as your own. And while I can't say "X percentage of users will cancel or are unhappy", neither can you. </blockquote><p>The number of people who make use of DDI in such a way that the only benefit they derive from their subscription is reading a new online magazine twice a month is so low that it's absurd for them to be demanding that WotC lower the subscription price.MMCJawa wrote:You don't really need to play the 4E martyr card. Not everyone offering their opinion has some sort of deep-seated hatred for 4E, not to mention there are long term subscribers in this thread who clearly disagree with you.
Just because you don't consider it a loss of value, doesn't mean some contingent of subscribers won't feel it's a loss of value. Their opinions are just as valid as your own. And while I can't say "X percentage of users will cancel or are unhappy", neither...Scott Betts2013-09-27T06:33:23ZRe: Forums: 4th Edition: Dragon and Dungeon are going awayScott Bettshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q665&page=3?Dragon-and-Dungeon-are-going-away#1242013-09-27T06:31:52Z2013-09-27T06:31:52Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Jib916 wrote:</div><blockquote>Coming from someone who subscribed to DDI for many years, I find this opinion quite insulting.</blockquote><p>Check yourself. You need to find a word that isn't "insulting" to use, there.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>What about the customers who have been loyal DDI subscribers?.</blockquote><p>What, you mean like <i>me</i>, the sort of person who has had a sustained DDI account since 2008?
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>It seems penalizing to these important customers to continue to charge them to access material and tools they have already payed for. </blockquote><p>They haven't "already payed for" them. They have paid for <i>temporary access</i> to those tools. That was made <i>abundantly</i> clear to you when you signed up.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>NEW content is what has kept them around all these years.</blockquote><p>Who? The minority of users who don't play 4e and subscribe only for the magazines?
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote><p>Not the “luxury” of accessing products they have already payed for.
</p>
</blockquote><p><i><b>They haven't already paid for them.</i></b> The cost of the full body of rules and descriptive content <i>alone</i> contained in DDI is well in excess of $1,000, <i>not even counting the magazines</i>. The maximum that any person could have paid or their DDI subscription at this point is well under $500. They have <i>not</i> paid for those products. They have paid for <i>access</i> to them. Pick somewhere else to rebel against the service-based economy.Jib916 wrote:Coming from someone who subscribed to DDI for many years, I find this opinion quite insulting.
Check yourself. You need to find a word that isn't "insulting" to use, there. Quote:What about the customers who have been loyal DDI subscribers?.
What, you mean like me, the sort of person who has had a sustained DDI account since 2008? Quote:It seems penalizing to these important customers to continue to charge them to access material and tools they have already payed for.
They...Scott Betts2013-09-27T06:31:52ZRe: Forums: 4th Edition: Dragon and Dungeon are going awayR_Chancehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q665&page=3?Dragon-and-Dungeon-are-going-away#1232013-09-27T06:02:50Z2013-09-27T06:02:50Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Zahariel wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
Funny thing, though, I don't play 4E, and while I did give the DDN playtest a try, it really isn't my cup of tea. I read the articles and adapt what I like to PF. The digital tools hold zero value to me.</p>
<p>Now I'm really saddened to see these magazines go.
<br />
</blockquote><p>They'll be back in all probability for DDN. I hope in electronic and (my unlikely hope) dead tree versions. At which point it should be easier to convert material. DDN, imo, is far closer to PF than 4E was. Personally I never picked up Dungeon but I have every issue of The Strategic Review / The Dragon / Dragon. I miss my reading material. 4E looked like a decent game but it wasn't my game and I never subscribed to the 4E versions. DDN looks interesting and I suspect I'll be buying PF and DDN books (and subscribing if Dragon / DDI makes a return)...Zahariel wrote:Funny thing, though, I don't play 4E, and while I did give the DDN playtest a try, it really isn't my cup of tea. I read the articles and adapt what I like to PF. The digital tools hold zero value to me.Now I'm really saddened to see these magazines go.
They'll be back in all probability for DDN. I hope in electronic and (my unlikely hope) dead tree versions. At which point it should be easier to convert material. DDN, imo, is far closer to PF than 4E was. Personally I never...R_Chance2013-09-27T06:02:50ZRe: Forums: 4th Edition: Dragon and Dungeon are going awayZaharielhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q665&page=3?Dragon-and-Dungeon-are-going-away#1222013-09-27T05:53:39Z2013-09-27T05:53:39Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Scott Betts wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>Hence, the subscription come February has less value than the subscription now (for those who assign value to new material - for those who measure it by volume, the December and February subscriptions have equal value). </blockquote>It is possible to assign value to new material just as one assigns value to volume of material. The former adds to the latter, when it is added. Now, on the other hand, if one judges the value of their subscription by the promise of <i>future</i> material (as I've pointed out) then they are justified in perceiving their annual subscription as less valuable, as they may have previously expected to receive twelve additional issues of each magazine when in reality they will only receive half of that. In such a case, WotC is reportedly refunding portions of subscription fees to customers who request it. </blockquote><p>I am a subscriber, and will continue to be one until December. At that point in time, the subscribtion will lose all of its value for me.
<p>See, I only subscribe for Dragon and Dungeon, and have done so since the online subs became available. Every month I would download the PDFs and print them out, and make my own dead tree versions. I keep yearly backups of every digital issue so far, too, so the library doesn't hold any interest for me.</p>
<p>Funny thing, though, I don't play 4E, and while I did give the DDN playtest a try, it really isn't my cup of tea. I read the articles and adapt what I like to PF. The digital tools hold zero value to me.</p>
<p>Now I'm really saddened to see these magazines go.</p>Scott Betts wrote:Quote:Hence, the subscription come February has less value than the subscription now (for those who assign value to new material - for those who measure it by volume, the December and February subscriptions have equal value).
It is possible to assign value to new material just as one assigns value to volume of material. The former adds to the latter, when it is added. Now, on the other hand, if one judges the value of their subscription by the promise of future material (as...Zahariel2013-09-27T05:53:39ZRe: Forums: 4th Edition: Dragon and Dungeon are going awayMMCJawahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q665&page=3?Dragon-and-Dungeon-are-going-away#1212013-09-27T05:03:42Z2013-09-27T05:03:42Z<p>As a check....I did just check to see how well the announcement has gone over on other forums. There are certainly people who agree with you Betts, but I seem to be seeing and equal amount of disappointment/threats of cancellation. While forums can only capture a snapshot of the user base, I don't think you can dismiss that sentiment entirely.</p>As a check....I did just check to see how well the announcement has gone over on other forums. There are certainly people who agree with you Betts, but I seem to be seeing and equal amount of disappointment/threats of cancellation. While forums can only capture a snapshot of the user base, I don't think you can dismiss that sentiment entirely.MMCJawa2013-09-27T05:03:42ZRe: Forums: 4th Edition: Dragon and Dungeon are going awayMMCJawahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q665&page=3?Dragon-and-Dungeon-are-going-away#1202013-09-27T04:42:21Z2013-09-27T04:42:21Z<p>You don't really need to play the 4E martyr card. Not everyone offering their opinion has some sort of deep-seated hatred for 4E, not to mention there are long term subscribers in this thread who clearly disagree with you. </p>
<p>Just because you don't consider it a loss of value, doesn't mean some contingent of subscribers won't feel it's a loss of value. Their opinions are just as valid as your own. And while I can't say "X percentage of users will cancel or are unhappy", neither can you.</p>You don't really need to play the 4E martyr card. Not everyone offering their opinion has some sort of deep-seated hatred for 4E, not to mention there are long term subscribers in this thread who clearly disagree with you.
Just because you don't consider it a loss of value, doesn't mean some contingent of subscribers won't feel it's a loss of value. Their opinions are just as valid as your own. And while I can't say "X percentage of users will cancel or are unhappy", neither can you.MMCJawa2013-09-27T04:42:21ZRe: Forums: 4th Edition: Dragon and Dungeon are going awaySteve Geddeshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q665&page=3?Dragon-and-Dungeon-are-going-away#1192013-09-27T01:59:18Z2013-09-27T01:59:18Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Jib916 wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
What about the customers who have been loyal DDI subscribers?. It seems penalizing to these important customers to continue to charge them to access material and tools they have already payed for. </p>
<p>NEW content is what has kept them around all these years. Not the “luxury” of accessing products they have already payed for.
<br />
</blockquote><p>The difference in the WotC approach versus most RPG companies' approach is that DDI isn't an offer to store your purchases. You have to download the stuff you've bought and back it up.
<p>Those subscribers you mention have five months to download everything they want and then cancel their subs.</p>
<p>Because they've been subscribed continuously, it's felt like DDI is a storage facility (in the same way it feels like paizo's "my downloads" page is a de facto storage facility). That hasn't been the offer though.</p>Jib916 wrote:What about the customers who have been loyal DDI subscribers?. It seems penalizing to these important customers to continue to charge them to access material and tools they have already payed for. NEW content is what has kept them around all these years. Not the “luxury” of accessing products they have already payed for.
The difference in the WotC approach versus most RPG companies' approach is that DDI isn't an offer to store your purchases. You have to download the stuff...Steve Geddes2013-09-27T01:59:18ZRe: Forums: 4th Edition: Dragon and Dungeon are going awaySteve Geddeshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q665&page=3?Dragon-and-Dungeon-are-going-away#1182013-09-27T01:53:44Z2013-09-27T01:53:44Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Scott Betts wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Steve Geddes wrote:</div><blockquote>You may not value regular, new material but some people do.</blockquote><p>Again, that is not the issue. I value regular, new material. Its value adds to the value of the subscription as a whole, when it is added to the subscription. But the value of the subscription doesn't magically <i>decrease</i> when you stop adding content to it. You still have the same set of tools for running a game that you did before.
<p>Some may never use those tools for running or playing a D&D game, but I expect that represents a minority of the subscriber base and does not justify lowering the price of the subscription.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>For them they no longer receive fresh, new 4E material.</blockquote><p>I'm one of the "them".
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>Hence, the subscription come February has less value than the subscription now (for those who assign value to new material - for those who measure it by volume, the December and February subscriptions have equal value). </blockquote>It is possible to assign value to new material just as one assigns value to volume of material. The former adds to the latter, when it is added. Now, on the other hand, if one judges the value of their subscription by the promise of <i>future</i> material (as I've pointed out) then they are justified in perceiving their annual subscription as less valuable, as they may have previously expected to receive twelve additional issues of each magazine when in reality they will only receive half of that. In such a case, WotC is reportedly refunding portions of subscription fees to customers who request it. </blockquote><p>I don't really understand what you're arguing with me about. You may not see a loss but some people do. Nobody is gaining anything so overall it's a reduction in value.
<p>My point is nearly your last paragraph. The change is clearly a drop in value (a marginal one) since "volume valuers" are losing and gaining nothing whilst "ongoing system support valuers" are losing something. Some people value the looking forward to new stuff each month. They're not going to get that come January.</p>
<p>In November they'll have x pages and the expectation of y pages to come. In December and going forward they'll have x+y pages and nothing to look forward to. That's a difference besides "y additional pages" whether it factors into your value calculation or not.</p>
<p>Who cares though? DDI is still a bargain, it's telegraphed well in advance and people can make whatever decision suits them. I don't see anyone being harmed by the decision, beyond the usual issue of not always agreeing with a publisher's choices.</p>Scott Betts wrote:Steve Geddes wrote:You may not value regular, new material but some people do.
Again, that is not the issue. I value regular, new material. Its value adds to the value of the subscription as a whole, when it is added to the subscription. But the value of the subscription doesn't magically decrease when you stop adding content to it. You still have the same set of tools for running a game that you did before. Some may never use those tools for running or playing a D&D game,...Steve Geddes2013-09-27T01:53:44ZRe: Forums: 4th Edition: Dragon and Dungeon are going awayJib916https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q665&page=3?Dragon-and-Dungeon-are-going-away#1172013-09-27T01:23:23Z2013-09-27T01:23:23Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Scott Betts wrote:</div><blockquote> But the value of the subscription doesn't magically <i>decrease</i> when you stop adding content to it. .</blockquote><p>Coming from someone who subscribed to DDI for many years, I find this opinion quite insulting.
<p>What about the customers who have been loyal DDI subscribers?. It seems penalizing to these important customers to continue to charge them to access material and tools they have already payed for. </p>
<p>NEW content is what has kept them around all these years. Not the “luxury” of accessing products they have already payed for.</p>Scott Betts wrote:But the value of the subscription doesn't magically decrease when you stop adding content to it. .
Coming from someone who subscribed to DDI for many years, I find this opinion quite insulting. What about the customers who have been loyal DDI subscribers?. It seems penalizing to these important customers to continue to charge them to access material and tools they have already payed for.
NEW content is what has kept them around all these years. Not the “luxury” of...Jib9162013-09-27T01:23:23ZRe: Forums: 4th Edition: Dragon and Dungeon are going awayScott Bettshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q665&page=3?Dragon-and-Dungeon-are-going-away#1162013-09-27T00:36:27Z2013-09-27T00:36:27Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Steve Geddes wrote:</div><blockquote>You may not value regular, new material but some people do.</blockquote><p>Again, that is not the issue. I value regular, new material. Its value adds to the value of the subscription as a whole, when it is added to the subscription. But the value of the subscription doesn't magically <i>decrease</i> when you stop adding content to it. You still have the same set of tools for running a game that you did before.
<p>Some may never use those tools for running or playing a D&D game, but I expect that represents a minority of the subscriber base and does not justify lowering the price of the subscription.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>For them they no longer receive fresh, new 4E material.</blockquote><p>I'm one of the "them".
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>Hence, the subscription come February has less value than the subscription now (for those who assign value to new material - for those who measure it by volume, the December and February subscriptions have equal value). </blockquote><p>It is possible to assign value to new material just as one assigns value to volume of material. The former adds to the latter, when it is added. Now, on the other hand, if one judges the value of their subscription by the promise of <i>future</i> material (as I've pointed out) then they are justified in perceiving their annual subscription as less valuable, as they may have previously expected to receive twelve additional issues of each magazine when in reality they will only receive half of that. In such a case, WotC is reportedly refunding portions of subscription fees to customers who request it.Steve Geddes wrote:You may not value regular, new material but some people do.
Again, that is not the issue. I value regular, new material. Its value adds to the value of the subscription as a whole, when it is added to the subscription. But the value of the subscription doesn't magically decrease when you stop adding content to it. You still have the same set of tools for running a game that you did before. Some may never use those tools for running or playing a D&D game, but I expect that...Scott Betts2013-09-27T00:36:27ZRe: Forums: 4th Edition: Dragon and Dungeon are going awaySteve Geddeshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q665&page=3?Dragon-and-Dungeon-are-going-away#1152013-09-26T21:10:42Z2013-09-26T21:10:42Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Scott Betts wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Steve Geddes wrote:</div><blockquote> Oh sure. I mean that come February an ongoing sub will be worth less than an ongoing sub now.</blockquote><p>Again, that is literally not true.
<p>The amount of material that you receive access to right now is greater than at any point in the past. Therefore the value of the subscription is higher. </blockquote><p>We don't all have the same value judgements.
<p>You may not value regular, new material but some people do. For them they no longer receive fresh, new 4E material. Hence, the subscription come February has less value than the subscription now (for those who assign value to new material - for those who measure it by volume, the December and February subscriptions have equal value).</p>Scott Betts wrote:Steve Geddes wrote: Oh sure. I mean that come February an ongoing sub will be worth less than an ongoing sub now.
Again, that is literally not true. The amount of material that you receive access to right now is greater than at any point in the past. Therefore the value of the subscription is higher. We don't all have the same value judgements. You may not value regular, new material but some people do. For them they no longer receive fresh, new 4E material. Hence, the...Steve Geddes2013-09-26T21:10:42ZRe: Forums: 4th Edition: Dragon and Dungeon are going awayScott Bettshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q665&page=3?Dragon-and-Dungeon-are-going-away#1142013-09-26T19:43:38Z2013-09-26T19:43:38Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Matt Thomason wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Here's the thing:</p>
<p>It doesn't matter what it's intended as, it matters how people use it.</blockquote><p>I think both matter. Any system should be designed so that its intended use and its practical use are closely-aligned. I definitely think that DDI hits that target.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote><p>Player A consumes the magazine content. They see value in the subscription because every month they receive something new. They enjoy reading articles but very rarely need to read them twice - although they save the downloadable full magazine PDFs to their hard drive every month for future reference (indeed, being able to do that was even listed as a subscriber benefit unless that changed later on). They don't use the DDI tools.</p>
<p>Player B pays for access to an online library. They see value in the subscription because they have ongoing access to a ton of material. They don't need to save the material locally because it's always there for them. They use the DDI tools.</p>
<p>Two different players. Two different needs. Both had a usable product before, now only player B does. No amount of persuasion will change the fact that there is no value in the product now to player A.</p>
<p>In other words - guys, just admit that both sides are correct in how it affects them personally. There is no right and wrong answer in this one. </blockquote><p>I don't see this as being the case, though. While I agree that some people may be using DDI solely for the magazine content (and thus may see this as a drop in value), the vast majority of people in this thread complaining about the change aren't even DDI subscribers in the first place. They're just here to celebrate the fact that they've found something else to call a misstep by WotC. And they are, uniformly, characterizing this as a drop in value when the reality is that for the majority of DDI users the value has never been higher (and even for those who are only interested in the magazines, subscribing now gets them more content for the price than at any point in the past).
<p>In other words, it may well be the case that a niche group of subscribers are only subscribing for the monthly roll of online magazine content, but WotC shouldn't feel like it needs to lower the price of its entire subscription service (which encompasses far more than the magazines) just to satisfy the demands of that subset of its subscriber base because for the majority of users the value is not diminishing.</p>Matt Thomason wrote:Here's the thing:
It doesn't matter what it's intended as, it matters how people use it.
I think both matter. Any system should be designed so that its intended use and its practical use are closely-aligned. I definitely think that DDI hits that target. Quote:Player A consumes the magazine content. They see value in the subscription because every month they receive something new. They enjoy reading articles but very rarely need to read them twice - although they save the...Scott Betts2013-09-26T19:43:38Z