Dragon and Dungeon are going away


4th Edition

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Lantern Lodge Customer Service Dire Care Bear Manager

I removed some more posts. I don't think "No sniping back and forth" can get much clearer.

Shadow Lodge

QXL99 wrote:
Sadly, people who like reading pixels are robbing people like me (who love the smell of ink and paper) from physical publications...

Except it's not that the pixels are robbing you of the print magazines, the pixels are just keeping alive many magazines in a different form that otherwise would simply vanish altogether.

Liberty's Edge

Sebastian wrote:
graywulfe wrote:


Per Lisa's stories on the subject, periodicals work differently than the rest of the book trade. Pathfinder not being a periodical is a very real thing that has a very defined meaning. At least that is my interpretation of Lisa's, and other industry professional's, stories and seminars on the subject.

Yeah, I've heard that too, and understand that periodicals have their own nutty universe involving how/when they are paid, returned, distributed, etc. However, looking at it from the customer's point of view, very little has changed for me between now and back when Dragon/Dungeon were published. I make a scheduled payment, I receive a physical product. Dragon and Dungeon moving to digital format did not save or improve them, and had they continued to be published in a physical format, they might've migrated to a different product type (from an inside baseball perspective) that is substantially the same as Pathfinder today.

Or, to put it another way, the statement at the time of "Dragon/Dungeon can only continue to exist as digitial products" has been proven incorrect in at least one way - they did not continue to exist as digital products. Had they continued to exist as physical products, they might've been reborn as a different product type to avoid the things that suck about magazines.

Edit: But, to be fair, mostly I'm still pissed off about the cancellation. I doubt WotC stopped publishing the magazines to annoy/piss off their customers, and I imagine that there was overwhelming evidence that the magazines were/are a dead end. All I really know is that I have a shelf containing all my 3e and 3.5 Dragon and Dungeon magazines, and I look upon it with fondness and sadness. Logic and evidence be damned.

I miss them too.


I've been buying the Gygax magazine PDF for that Dragon feel. Issue 2 had a beautiful Dragon by Easley on it.


it's not that print is doing. It's that people refuse to pay for shoddy work. The last few months dragon and dungeon have really gone down hill. they are filled with edition neutral articles the quality of which can be found on any blog. So they are trying to compete with a paid product what others give away free. The corporate mentality of charge for everything is the failure not print media...


QXL99 wrote:
Sadly, people who like reading pixels are robbing people like me (who love the smell of ink and paper) from physical publications...

I like huffing ink and paper as much as the next guy:) i also love trees:) i given the choice i'll take having trees then ink and paper. i know its a simplistic view, but its coming from a guy that used to read 2-3 newspapers by lunch time and i haven't bought one now going on 3 years, also i havent driven my car in 3 months to do my part on cutting down emissions. we all gotta do something and i for one am glad to not use paper.


captain yesterday wrote:
QXL99 wrote:
Sadly, people who like reading pixels are robbing people like me (who love the smell of ink and paper) from physical publications...
I like huffing ink and paper as much as the next guy:) i also love trees:) i given the choice i'll take having trees then ink and paper. i know its a simplistic view, but its coming from a guy that used to read 2-3 newspapers by lunch time and i haven't bought one now going on 3 years, also i havent driven my car in 3 months to do my part on cutting down emissions. we all gotta do something and i for one am glad to not use paper.

Hmmmm. Random thought this just caused me to think: I wonder if anyone's done the calculations to work out at which point it becomes more environmentally friendly to print something out and not burn electricity in order to read it ;) There has to be a graph somewhere that plots the number of times a page is read against environmental damage from printing a single copy and environmental damage from generating the power to display it...

More practically: Newspapers, I'm with you, as they're read-and-throw. If it's a book that's going to be on my shelves for 10 years plus (especially an RPG rulebook that will be repeatedly referenced), I'll likely go the printed route.

Ugh... now I've made myself feel guilty about using PDFs of books I own in hardcopy!

Liberty's Edge

I work in research in the wood/pulp industry. Data shows that we are increasing in consumption of paper. Photocopy paper mainly drives this. So keep printing those PDF's, keeps me in a job ;)


Stefan Hill wrote:


I work in research in the wood/pulp industry. Data shows that we are increasing in consumption of paper. Photocopy paper mainly drives this. So keep printing those PDF's, keeps me in a job ;)

I'm going to be printing out the new DDN playtest packet. That should help...

As for magazines I'm picking up the PDF and dead tree versions of Gygax magazine. Gives off an old Dragon mag vibe. No surprise with Tim Cask and company doing it...


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Scott Betts wrote:
the David wrote:
So, they aren't gonna publish new articles. How about access to the articles from the past? Do you still have to pay for that?

Those articles are still available. Yes, you still have to pay for access to those articles.

Quote:
you lose access to what you paid for. If they keep up the servers and you still have to pay full price, you're getting ripped off.

No you're not. In fact, your subscription is worth more now, at this very moment, than it was at any point in the past. Your subscription gives you access to more content this month than it did last month. And last month it gave you access to more content than the month before that. All this means is that the value of your subscription will stop increasing after December, because the amount of content it provides you with will remain static.

I'm going to have to mostly disagree with this. You're correct when you say the subscription is worth more money each month as new content is added. Or rather, it WAS. Now the value will begin to go down each month as no new content is added. Allow me to demonstrate why with examples.

1) If someone offers to sell me a set of encyclopedias with a new addition each month ad infinitum then that is a subscription. If the subscription only provides me with the most recent addition starting when I subscribed and each addition onward, then the value of subscription stays the same from month to month. If I'm given all the back issues of the encyclopedia no matter when I subscribe then the value of the subscription is highest upon first subscribing and then lowers for the very next month and then remains the same afterward.

2) If someone offers to sell me a 26-volume set of encyclopedias (or a magazine that will eventually end at a given point) but I can buy them one-at-a-time on a month to month basis, this is really a single purchase spread out over the course of the delivery. Each increment has identical value. Also, if I choose to opt out and I just stop collecting the set at any point with no additional cost, then, the value is still the same for what I purchased. The total worth may be less but the value of use for me is still the same.

3) If someone offers to sell me a limited-set of encyclopedias but I have to continue to pay to read or reference the encyclopedias, well, that's a rental. I'm essentially renting the material. And when you rent something the value of the rental cost declines with each new payment. If it's a product that deteriorates over time (cars for example) but the rental cost stays the same then the decline is even steeper.

The minute you take a subscription model and then halt new product production it usually becomes a set. They stop giving me volumes and I stop giving them money. But if I'm still paying each month to access old content but not getting new content, then it becomes a rental.

So it was a subscription (with back-issue access) where value was highest upon first subscribing, then value dropped afterward but stayed the same month to month, and now finally value will begin to go down each month. Not stay the same. Not increase. Go down.

If the argument to justify this (and claim that the subscription is still providing the same amount of value, which is isn't) relies on the fact that DDI gives access to a bunch of other stuff as well then they need to lower the monthly subscription cost to reflect the now-limited and unchanging nature of the content offered. Because it's no longer a sub, it's now a monthly rental cost that allows access to all the programs and articles.


I don't post a lot on here...parts of this thread just really irritated me so here it goes...

Rental v. Subscription v. Value

After boycotting DDI I finally broke down and bought a year subscription in mid-August, by the end of August I had all of the current content copied and saved to my harddrive...so needless to say the reward on my initial investment was huge!!!

Now a month into my subscription, all I have to look forward to is the new articles and e-zines...and guess what those will be going on a hiatus in December for an undisclosed length of time...so what does this mean...this means that had I simply would have waited until December 2013 or Jan 2014, I could have all of the same content and done so for the cost of a one month subscription. So lets do the math shall we...

I spent $71.40 and have all the content copied and access to some tools (that will be obsolete with DnD Next, unless they are updated).

Then in December 2013 or after someone can get all this same content for $9.95, but shucks they loose access to the tools after a month...poor schmuck.

So to recap, I will have paid $60 more for the same content as the poor schmuck.

So...what exactly does that extra $60 get me...oh ya access to some tools...guess I should just be glad I didn't start subscribing back in 2008 otherwise I would have spent roughly $347 for the same content...and what would I have had to show for it...because unlike a gym membership I'm not going to come out any stronger or healthier by having joined earlier...oh ya I'd have had access to all those tools...which would have resulted in my becoming a better DM and producing better PCs and NPCs...riiiight...

So...how is this not a decline in value over time?

From the math...the only people who will come out ahead in all of this, aside from WotC, will be those who have refused to join DDI but now that their is a blackout coming, they can jump in for $9.95 and grab all the digital goodies that they want...and then walk away...meanwhile...all I will get to enjoy for the last 8 months of my subscription will be those tools...

Liberty's Edge

captain yesterday wrote:
QXL99 wrote:
Sadly, people who like reading pixels are robbing people like me (who love the smell of ink and paper) from physical publications...
I like huffing ink and paper as much as the next guy:) i also love trees:) i given the choice i'll take having trees then ink and paper. i know its a simplistic view, but its coming from a guy that used to read 2-3 newspapers by lunch time and i haven't bought one now going on 3 years, also i havent driven my car in 3 months to do my part on cutting down emissions. we all gotta do something and i for one am glad to not use paper.

I hate to break this to you, They don't cut down trees to make paper. They used the byproducts of making a tree into lumber to make paper. They cut down trees to make lumber.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Gorbacz wrote:
It's 2013. Paper is dead.

Thank you, Egon. :-)


graywulfe wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
QXL99 wrote:
Sadly, people who like reading pixels are robbing people like me (who love the smell of ink and paper) from physical publications...
I like huffing ink and paper as much as the next guy:) i also love trees:) i given the choice i'll take having trees then ink and paper. i know its a simplistic view, but its coming from a guy that used to read 2-3 newspapers by lunch time and i haven't bought one now going on 3 years, also i havent driven my car in 3 months to do my part on cutting down emissions. we all gotta do something and i for one am glad to not use paper.
I hate to break this to you, They don't cut down trees to make paper. They used the byproducts of making a tree into lumber to make paper. They cut down trees to make lumber.

i'm pretty sure i said it was a simplistic answer:) still don't drive my car tho! how about you? i bet not a single person here can go more then a day without driving:)

Silver Crusade

I sympathise with those who are going to loose access to something they enjoy namely the online version of the Dungeon and Dragon magazines. Several years ago, I lost access to something I enjoyed, namely the print version of Dungeon and Dragon magazine.

As Wizards of the Coast produces new Editions of the D&D game: from D&D 2nd ed, to 3rd ed, to 3.5, From 3.5 to 4.0 ed, or Forth ed, (I'm sure there was a 4.5 somewhere) From 4.5 D&D to Fifth ed or 5.0 or D&D Next as it is being branded, there are going to be changes.

Out of such changes comes both things we like, and things we strongly dislike.

Out of the last transition in D&D editions, I found 4th edition not to be "my cup of tea", however, luckily, I liked the Rise of the Rune Lords, and then the Pathfinder game after it.

I am willing to take a look at 5th edition D&D, or D&D Next as it is being branded. I may even buy the basic PHB DMG and MM, and if I like what I see, I'll give the game a try. If not, I'll place the books next to my pristine 4th Ed D&D PHB, DMG, and MM.

Either way, I plan to continue playing Pathfinder, and to enjoy reading the adventure paths and other things Paizo publishes.

Liberty's Edge

captain yesterday wrote:
graywulfe wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
QXL99 wrote:
Sadly, people who like reading pixels are robbing people like me (who love the smell of ink and paper) from physical publications...
I like huffing ink and paper as much as the next guy:) i also love trees:) i given the choice i'll take having trees then ink and paper. i know its a simplistic view, but its coming from a guy that used to read 2-3 newspapers by lunch time and i haven't bought one now going on 3 years, also i havent driven my car in 3 months to do my part on cutting down emissions. we all gotta do something and i for one am glad to not use paper.
I hate to break this to you, They don't cut down trees to make paper. They used the byproducts of making a tree into lumber to make paper. They cut down trees to make lumber.
i'm pretty sure i said it was a simplistic answer:) still don't drive my car tho! how about you? i bet not a single person here can go more then a day without driving:)

I drive 20+ minutes to work every weekday. I feel no shame. More power to you.


ElyasRavenwood wrote:
I sympathise with those who are going to loose access to something they enjoy namely the online version of the Dungeon and Dragon magazines. Several years ago, I lost access to something I enjoyed, namely the print version of Dungeon and Dragon magazine.

No one is losing access. WotC is putting them on hiatus until the new edition comes out. All of the previous content will be there, available just as it was before.

Digital Products Assistant

Removed more back and forth posts.


Okay. I'll respect that Chris. Apologies for clogging up the thread.

Scott, hope you don't think I was "sniping" at you; I wasn't. And in fact, I've nothing against DDI. I think it's a fine service.

Anyway, I am sad to see the magazines get put on hiatus. They'll be missed.


captain yesterday wrote:
graywulfe wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
QXL99 wrote:
Sadly, people who like reading pixels are robbing people like me (who love the smell of ink and paper) from physical publications...
I like huffing ink and paper as much as the next guy:) i also love trees:) i given the choice i'll take having trees then ink and paper. i know its a simplistic view, but its coming from a guy that used to read 2-3 newspapers by lunch time and i haven't bought one now going on 3 years, also i havent driven my car in 3 months to do my part on cutting down emissions. we all gotta do something and i for one am glad to not use paper.
I hate to break this to you, They don't cut down trees to make paper. They used the byproducts of making a tree into lumber to make paper. They cut down trees to make lumber.
i'm pretty sure i said it was a simplistic answer:) still don't drive my car tho! how about you? i bet not a single person here can go more then a day without driving:)

I drive once a week...


lokiare wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
graywulfe wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
QXL99 wrote:
Sadly, people who like reading pixels are robbing people like me (who love the smell of ink and paper) from physical publications...
I like huffing ink and paper as much as the next guy:) i also love trees:) i given the choice i'll take having trees then ink and paper. i know its a simplistic view, but its coming from a guy that used to read 2-3 newspapers by lunch time and i haven't bought one now going on 3 years, also i havent driven my car in 3 months to do my part on cutting down emissions. we all gotta do something and i for one am glad to not use paper.
I hate to break this to you, They don't cut down trees to make paper. They used the byproducts of making a tree into lumber to make paper. They cut down trees to make lumber.
i'm pretty sure i said it was a simplistic answer:) still don't drive my car tho! how about you? i bet not a single person here can go more then a day without driving:)
I drive once a week...

I don't even have a license and drive for a some hours every decade or so simply to insure that in an absolute emergency I could take over a car and drive some one to a hospital. Under regular circumstances I use a bicycle.


I don't get where people think that just because they're not producing new content for D&D that the old content will, for some reason, go *poof* OR that I can't access my DDI tools like the Compendium, Monster Builder, or Character Builder. It says Dungeon and Dragon magazines, of which only compromise a portion of one's DDI account.


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Ummmm, because Wizards already pulled that stunt one day when they were grumpy, removing all the pdf:s that people had bought and expected to be able to re-download from the website?

Really, them doing something similar this time around doesn't seem like an odds fluke to me.


Sissyl wrote:

Ummmm, because Wizards already pulled that stunt one day when they were grumpy, removing all the pdf:s that people had bought and expected to be able to re-download from the website?

Really, them doing something similar this time around doesn't seem like an odds fluke to me.

Call me optimistic but I can only hope that with a new team and many years later they might have learned from their mistakes.


You mean, like shutting down the magazines? =)

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Diffan wrote:
I don't get where people think that just because they're not producing new content for D&D that the old content will, for some reason, go *poof* OR that I can't access my DDI tools like the Compendium, Monster Builder, or Character Builder. It says Dungeon and Dragon magazines, of which only compromise a portion of one's DDI account.

Well, let me break that one down for you.

Back in 2007 WotC said "pay us 5 USD (or whatever it is) per month, you'll get the CharBuilder, Compendium, new Dragon and Dungeon content every month, and VTT, Monster Creator, Character Visualizer IN THE NEAR FUTURE!"

Then they said "continue to pay us 5 USD per month, you'll get the CharBuilder, Compendium, Monster Creator, new Dragon and Dungeon content every month but no VTT and Visualizer, sorry it didn't work out!"

And now they said "continue to pay us 5 USD per month, you'll get the CharBuilder, Compendium, Monster Creator which is actually a Monster Customizer aaand *ahem* NO new Dragon and Dungeon content every month "

Notice the pattern? :)

Liberty's Edge

captain yesterday wrote:
graywulfe wrote:
captain yesterday wrote:
QXL99 wrote:
Sadly, people who like reading pixels are robbing people like me (who love the smell of ink and paper) from physical publications...
I like huffing ink and paper as much as the next guy:) i also love trees:) i given the choice i'll take having trees then ink and paper. i know its a simplistic view, but its coming from a guy that used to read 2-3 newspapers by lunch time and i haven't bought one now going on 3 years, also i havent driven my car in 3 months to do my part on cutting down emissions. we all gotta do something and i for one am glad to not use paper.
I hate to break this to you, They don't cut down trees to make paper. They used the byproducts of making a tree into lumber to make paper. They cut down trees to make lumber.
i'm pretty sure i said it was a simplistic answer:) still don't drive my car tho! how about you? i bet not a single person here can go more then a day without driving:)

I would take you up on that, but it might be cheating. I don't even have a Driver's License (and yes I am very much old enough) and have never had one. I have always walked, biked or taken public transportation everywhere. Public transport was mainly for when I had to cover a great deal of distance otherwise I always chose my own two feet or my bike.

Right now the only time I get in a car is when I go grocery shopping with my roommate or when she insists on driving someplace. Apparently I have an odd idea of what is an acceptable walking distance.

Oh and on the magazines going away. They went away for me when they went digital. This is more to due to the fact I would like to at least own a full pdf without gettin an edition I was not interested in. I'm sure 4e was a good game for many people, but it was not for me.


Gorbacz wrote:


And now they said "continue to pay us 5 USD per month, you'll get the CharBuilder, Compendium, Monster Creator which is actually a Monster Customizer aaand *ahem* NO new Dragon and Dungeon content every month "

Notice the pattern? :)

The Monster Creator can be used to create new monsters its just that for me and likely most people customizing an existing monster is easier. You can click the new button and all the fields will start off blank - fill in from here. I've occasionally even done this when I felt that nothing in the current database was really getting even near the concept I was looking for and I was better off starting with a blank page. Its just that with 6000 monsters already in the database chances are your new monster is really just tweaking something that has already been done so its rare that a blank page is more useful then a full one you'll edit to suit current needs.


Gorbacz wrote:
Back in 2007 WotC said "pay us 5 USD (or whatever it is) per month, you'll get the CharBuilder, Compendium, new Dragon and Dungeon content every month, and VTT, Monster Creator, Character Visualizer IN THE NEAR FUTURE!"

I'm sure that you just forgot to mention that the subscription was deliberately launched at a price point of $5 (lower than their original target) to account for the fact that the apps were not included. I'm sure it wasn't a willful omission on your part intended to mislead people who haven't actually been following DDI closely.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Scott Betts wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:
Back in 2007 WotC said "pay us 5 USD (or whatever it is) per month, you'll get the CharBuilder, Compendium, new Dragon and Dungeon content every month, and VTT, Monster Creator, Character Visualizer IN THE NEAR FUTURE!"
I'm sure that you just forgot to mention that the subscription was deliberately launched at a price point of $5 (lower than their original target) to account for the fact that the apps were not included. I'm sure it wasn't a willful omission on your part intended to mislead people who haven't actually been following DDI closely.

Really? Dammit, I forgot to consult the WotC Encyclopedia and Hasbro Shareholder Meeting minutes again. All I did was compare the history of DDI features and its' pricing. My bad. By the way, sources please :)

But even if you do provide sources for that, two questions remain: why weren't the prices eventually raised when the new features appeared and why haven't they been lowered now that an important feature has bit the dust?


Even though I haven't really had much to do with either imprint in a very long time they both were iconic symbols of what D&D stuff was for me. The adventures could be patchy in quality, additional rules could be painfully unbalancing and almost all the ads were for stuff in the states so were not helpful to a kid from England. Despite all this and the fact that a dead tree edition hasn't existed for a hell of a long time this news still makes me feel a bit sad.


Gorbacz wrote:
Really? Dammit, I forgot to consult the WotC Encyclopedia and Hasbro Shareholder Meeting minutes again. All I did was compare the history of DDI features and its' pricing. My bad. By the way, sources please :)

Enjoy.

Quote:
But even if you do provide sources for that, two questions remain: why weren't the prices eventually raised when the new features appeared

The prices were raised. To the current price: $6 per month.

Quote:
and why haven't they been lowered now that an important feature has bit the dust?

Because, as we've already explained, the value of the subscription does not decrease with the magazines going on hiatus. Instead, the value of the subscriptions will stop increasing, and remain static for the rest of DDI's supported lifespan (reportedly at least through the launch of D&D Next).

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Scott Betts wrote:


Because, as we've already explained, the value of the subscription does not decrease with the magazines going on hiatus. Instead, the value of the subscriptions will stop increasing, and remain static for the rest of DDI's supported lifespan (reportedly at least through the launch of D&D Next).

I have a problem with your logic here, frankly.

I have a deal with a grocery that they're sending me 10 apples and 2 oranges per day for 5 USD. One day, they send me a notice that I'm not going to get any more oranges, but the price stays the same.

Care to explain how's that "not a decrease in value"?


Gorbacz wrote:

I have a problem with your logic here, frankly.

I have a deal with a grocery that they're sending me 10 apples and 2 oranges per day for 5 USD. One day, they send me a notice that I'm not going to get any more oranges, but the price stays the same.

Care to explain how's that "not a decrease in value"?

Because DDI is not a grocery and does not deal in consumables.

Let's return to the gym metaphor, shall we?

A businessman opens up a neighborhood gym. It's pretty spartan at first; some free weights, a few treadmills, and a handful of exercise mats. You sign up and begin working out there. Over time, the owner adds onto the gym, eventually installing a full set of machines, a lap pool, a rock climbing wall, and an indoor track. He even raises the price of the gym membership modestly at one point, to help recoup some of the costs involved in upgrading the gym.

Eventually, he stops upgrading the gym. He feels it is complete, and doesn't need to have new features built on. He continues to maintain it and keep it usable, and you continue to work out there.

In the above situation, would you feel justified in approaching the owner and demanding that he lower the membership price as a result of his decision to stop upgrading the gym? Has the value of your gym membership gone down, at that point?

The answer is no, of course. Imagine how entitled that would sound! Hopefully I won't have to explain the parallels to you in detail.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Scott Betts wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:

I have a problem with your logic here, frankly.

I have a deal with a grocery that they're sending me 10 apples and 2 oranges per day for 5 USD. One day, they send me a notice that I'm not going to get any more oranges, but the price stays the same.

Care to explain how's that "not a decrease in value"?

Because DDI is not a grocery and does not deal in consumables.

Let's return to the gym metaphor, shall we?

A businessman opens up a neighborhood gym. It's pretty spartan at first; some free weights, a few treadmills, and a handful of exercise mats. You sign up and begin working out there. Over time, the owner adds onto the gym, eventually installing a full set of machines, a lap pool, a rock climbing wall, and an indoor track. He even raises the price of the gym membership modestly at one point, to help recoup some of the costs involved in upgrading the gym.

Eventually, he stops upgrading the gym. He feels it is complete, and doesn't need to have new features built on. He continues to maintain it and keep it usable, and you continue to work out there.

In the above situation, would you feel justified in approaching the owner and asking him to lower the membership price as a result of his decision to stop upgrading the gym? Has the value of your gym membership gone down, at that point?

The answer is no, of course. Hopefully I won't have to explain the parallels to you in detail.

That's a cute analogy, but flawed. The gym owner didn't "stop upgrading" the place. For the last several years he did provide drinks as part of the subscription to every customer. He did even have "drinks for every subscriber" sign flashing above his door. Now he says the drinks are over. Sure the stuff I drank already is mine, and it's value stays with me, but I'm not getting any new from now on. The value of what my subscription provided went down. That's, like, basic economy.

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