Opening door part of the surprise round or what starts combat?

[勝20100]

1. There’s a character, Foo, in a room. In the next room, another character, Bar, has heard Foo (made her Perception check through door/wall). Foo didn’t hear Bar (failed her Perception). Bar decide to attack, so she opens up the door between them. Is the opening of the door Bar’s surprise round action or is it what starts combat (meaning Bar can still do a standard)?

2. Can a door be opened by a stealthy character? (that’s only useful to know if opening the door would be Bar’s surprise action).

[Chemlak]

Combat begins when the GM says it begins. Having said that, as a GM, I would rule that opening the door is the surprise round action. Why? An action is being taken by someone with the intent to commence hostilities. Immediately prior to that action being resolved, initiative is rolled. The surprise round happens. In that surprise round, Bar's action is to open the door. Further actions occur in normal initiative. Foo might get lucky and have won the initiative roll and be able to undertake offensive action before Bar can.

As for the question about opening a door silently, I'd allow Bar to make a Stealth roll (probably modified ad hoc, since it's the door he's trying to move silently, not himself), opposed by another Perception roll, and if it succeeds, I'd allow the surprise round to happen after the door opened.

[Anguish]

勝20100 wrote:

1. There’s a character, Foo, in a room. In the next room, another character, Bar, has heard Foo (made her Perception check through door/wall). Foo didn’t hear Bar (failed her Perception). Bar decide to attack, so she opens up the door between them. Is the opening of the door Bar’s surprise round action or is it what starts combat (meaning Bar can still do a standard)?

2. Can a door be opened by a stealthy character? (that’s only useful to know if opening the door would be Bar’s surprise action).

Bar does not get to summon her dagger as a free action and slit Foo's throat.

Sorry, I got confused for a moment. What I meant to say is that the answer is: neither. Opening a door is not a hostile action. As such, the door is opened outside of combat. Once the door is opening, the GM gives Foo a new Perception check to observe that happening. If Foo succeeds, initiative is rolled and no surprise round takes place because both participants are aware of one another. If Foo fails, Bar's player gets to declare her next action and if it's hostile, initiative is rolled and the surprise round begins at that moment.

I'd certainly allow a character to attempt to open a door silently. Circumstance bonus/penalty applies depending on... circumstance. A character who applies oil in advance get a bonus. A door that has rusted shut imposes a penalty. And so on. That said, if Foo is facing the door a Perception check may not be required because the door is in plain sight. Note: you can't use Stealth to hide in plain sight unless you have Hide In Plain Sight, which a door does not have.

[Darkbridger]

Bar is not being creative enough...

Knock on the door and make Foo open it, readying an action to attack whoever/whatever opens it (aka, guarateed surprise)
Tie a rope to the door handle and open it from around a corner
Light the door on fire and set ambush at the other door into the room
Slide a piece of parchment with an explosive rune under the door
Cast invisibility, then open door
Pour oil under the door, knock on the door, wait with torch in hand
Open door from adjacent space and wait (does not work if room occupied by spellcaster)
Open the door loudly, gasp in surprise at Foo, run down hallway toward waiting party ambush/pit trap/grease spell/trip wire/etc/etc/etc
And numerous others that I have had to adjudicate over the years/editions.

But as to surprise... agree with Anguish, opening the door is not hostile and should not start combat.

[BigNorseWolf]

勝20100 wrote:

1. There’s a character, Foo, in a room. In the next room, another character, Bar, has heard Foo (made her Perception check through door/wall). Foo didn’t hear Bar (failed her Perception). Bar decide to attack, so she opens up the door between them. Is the opening of the door Bar’s surprise round action or is it what starts combat (meaning Bar can still do a standard)?

Someone you didn't know was outside suddenly kicks down your door. Your brain is going to spend a second going "WTH" giving the person kicking down the door a chance to act.

2. Can a door be opened by a stealthy character? (that’s only useful to know if opening the door would be Bar’s surprise action).

I would not start combat until the door was opened and then have the surprise round.

[勝20100]

From my reading of Stealth, you can pass in front (next to in Pathfinder because there is no facing) of someone stealthy if you end your turn in cover or concealment.

It was something that happened in a game I was a player but it was more complicated and the complication did not add anything to the question so I removed it. Foo was a group of PC and Bar was an NPC. Our PC were trying to avoid any further combat (and death). I didn’t state that because the case could be reversed, Foo and Bar can be NPC or PC.

There’s also the general issue of players in a dungeon opening a door.

I thought of what I would do as a GM and wasn’t sure what the rule were telling me to do. The rules only mention start of combat/battle.

One thing to consider is if Bar is a group and opening the door is part of the surprise round, it means one of them can open the door for the rest to act.

Edit: Someone else posted another thread on a very similar subject 3 hours after I did.

[MurphysParadox]

Darkbridger wrote:

Bar is not being creative enough...

Knock on the door and make Foo open it, readying an action to attack whoever/whatever opens it (aka, guarateed surprise)
Tie a rope to the door handle and open it from around a corner
Light the door on fire and set ambush at the other door into the room
Slide a piece of parchment with an explosive rune under the door
Cast invisibility, then open door
Pour oil under the door, knock on the door, wait with torch in hand
Open door from adjacent space and wait (does not work if room occupied by spellcaster)
Open the door loudly, gasp in surprise at Foo, run down hallway toward waiting party ambush/pit trap/grease spell/trip wire/etc/etc/etc
And numerous others that I have had to adjudicate over the years/editions.

But as to surprise... agree with Anguish, opening the door is not hostile and should not start combat.

You forgot cast invisibility on the door and have Foo charge head long into the solid oak and knock himself out. That's always a fun, if wasteful, use of the spell.

[Darkbridger]

MurphysParadox wrote:

Darkbridger wrote:

Bar is not being creative enough...

Knock on the door and make Foo open it, readying an action to attack whoever/whatever opens it (aka, guarateed surprise)
Tie a rope to the door handle and open it from around a corner
Light the door on fire and set ambush at the other door into the room
Slide a piece of parchment with an explosive rune under the door
Cast invisibility, then open door
Pour oil under the door, knock on the door, wait with torch in hand
Open door from adjacent space and wait (does not work if room occupied by spellcaster)
Open the door loudly, gasp in surprise at Foo, run down hallway toward waiting party ambush/pit trap/grease spell/trip wire/etc/etc/etc
And numerous others that I have had to adjudicate over the years/editions.

But as to surprise... agree with Anguish, opening the door is not hostile and should not start combat.

You forgot cast invisibility on the door and have Foo charge head long into the solid oak and knock himself out. That's always a fun, if wasteful, use of the spell.

Yep, I have encountered that one too. I would be here for hours if I tried to list every creative "kick in the door" scenario I've seen over the years. The hard and fast rule I usually go with, is "do what's most fun"... even if it bends the rules a bit.

[wakedown]

Hey! I started a similar thread the same day and just realized that.

Here's how I believe it's run:

1. The door opens, this happens outside of combat.

2. If either side is hostile to one another, you roll initiative.

3. Because Foo did not hear Bar, Bar gets a surprise round against Foo.

There's plenty of precedent for this in written adventures, where ogres/orcs/goblins are so preoccupied by playing cards/dice/catch-a-caltrop that anyone opening a door on them gets an automatic surprise round, or their Perception check is penalized so significantly it's all but guaranteed.