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This is just as it sounds. I love Paizo's monsters, particularly the outsiders, particularly the evil ones. Each has been given something new, a twist, that makes them recognizable but distinct from previous incarnations. I feel desire to proclaim my love for them throughout the boards and want you to do the same. What do you think of the evil they represent? How do you see them represented in real-life.
Let's start with the big three: Demons, Devils, and Daemons.
Devils: A classic. Legions of evil marching in lock-step with their gestapo boots. Advancement, order, and civilization without conscience or mercy. Souls are fuel for the infernal economy.
Representation: Devils, or devilishness, are found in the slimy lawyer, reckless banker, and cruel officer. They play the game for their own ends, and play it well. In a word Tywin Lannister. Asmodeus now, he's something else. The true old-school before such trivial things as morality even existed. I see him kind of like Death from Supernatural. Don't be snarky, bacteria.
The twist: Asmodeus. From the Book of the Damned we learn that he actually won the primeval war against his CG 'brother' Ithys. He held Sarenrae's life in his hands... and walked away. Why? Nobody is sure. He tells Sarenrae, more or less, 'you win' despite defeating his main opponent. After organizing a bit of the multiverse to his liking, he's basically just sat there waiting, occasionally calling meetings of his main henchmen, but taking very little direct action and interacting very little with the devils that are supposed to serve him. If you manage to get to him, you'll likely have a pleasant and intelligent conversation. He'll even help with problems that threaten the whole of existence, like Rovagug/Qlippoth. I think Asmodeus has a lot to do with Sarenrae's attitude towards evil.
Demons: Another classic. Slavering hordes of sin. Whim, passion, and self at the expense of all. Souls mean growth.
Representation: The petty criminal, severe criminals, teenagers They do what they want when they want. The Dothraki.
The twist: The Abyss/Lamashtu and the demons themselves. The abyss is no longer a passive place, it's more like an enormous organism with goals of it's own. It learns and when invaded can rally the disparate demons into a cohesive-ish force. Like the immune system responding to infection. Likewise, demons aren't forces of elemental destruction, rather corrupt, fecund life.
Daemons: Oblivion. Nihilism made flesh. No twist here because these guys are uniquely Pathfinder. Lone, even when in groups, tortured souls filled with hate and despair. Not rage, not anger. Hate. The pure poisonous thing that ultimately, regards of it's original target, encompasses all that exists.
Representation: The school shooter, lone bombers. Plenty of real-life examples.
Daemons are probably my favorite outsider type. They are genuinely scary, completely evil, and totally relatable. A demon may twist your head off and use it as a stick puppet, but at least he's having fun. A devil will use you, but he's got a plan and intends to go places. Hell, even a kyton is trying to perfect the two of you. Daemons, they just want it all to end.
Daemons nicely lead into the 'lesser' outsiders. Kytons, Divs, Asura, Oni, Rakshasa, Qlippoth, and Demodand.
Kytons: Right up there with Daemons for pure scary. I hear they draw a lot from the Hellraiser franchise, which I cannot verify and have no intention of gaining the information necessary for confirmation. Perfection through alteration and extremes. To me, these share some connections with Daemons, as the kytons seem to have a deep-seated unhappiness with themselves. Serious body-image issues. Rather than go full apocalypse, kytons try to forcibly make themselves perfect through external means. Kind of the opposite of Irori.
Representations: Surgery addicts, modification extremists, eating-disorder sufferers.
Divs: These are an interesting one. They're like Daemons, but more focused. Daemons want the end of everything, more specifically life, particularly intelligent life. Divs don't really have a problem with life or existence as a whole, just mortals. Or rather, intelligent mortals and their works, particularly humans and others who bind genies. Also unlike daemons, Divs weren't originally mortal, these are corrupted elementals. To me, Divs are the world/universe in sociopath ex-significant other mode. 'Don't need me anymore?! I'll show you! I'll burn your house! Steal your car! Kill Mittens! And then, and then I'm coming for you!'
Asura: Asuras are to the gods what Divs are to mortals. Bad Karma coming to bite you and everything you ever loved. Interestingly, at least this is my reading, Asuras don't really have a problem with mortals per-se. Rather, we're 'Mittens'. The pet/creation of gods that Asuras know they are fond of and so target us to get at them.
Oni: Greed. I love these guys. In some ways an antithesis to Daemons and Kytons, or at least coming at it from a different direction. Former guardian spirits that got fed up with being on the outside, they've crashed the party and are going to drink all the beer, crank the volume up all the way, and you had better love them or else. Seriously, these guys just want to be human. They represent an evil stemming from being unsatisfied. They want to be something else, and are willing to break the rules and trample over other people to get there, or at least get as close as they can. Deep down though, they know they don't belong and are ashamed of their forms.
Rakshasa: These guys understand the Oni's desires, but come at it from the mortal side. They loved mortal life, way too much. Life/existence on another plane isn't good enough. They want to live as mortals forever, experiencing the best life has to offer, and screw what the universe thinks.
Qlippoth: The original denizens of the abyss, qlippoth are the most inhuman/cosmic evil. Wriggling things from the deep that have been displaced, and are mighty unhappy about it. They are evil, by nature and also because they want the end of all mortal life, but are so alien that the only thing we can understand is they want us dead. Personally I think the Great Old Ones are Qlippoth that have decided the best way to rid the material plane of mortal life is to move to said plane. You take our homes, we'll just move into yours. I like these guys a lot too.
Demodand: The only evil outsider I'm ambivalent towards. Creations of the titans, these guys live in the abyss, but aren't demons or qlippoth. I like that they are there, they made a good addition to the ecosystem, a type of parasite as it were, but don't do much for me personally.
So guys, those are some of my thoughts. How about you? How do you see these outsiders and why do you love them?
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Interesting post!
Kytons: I could almost see them like the Borg (my knowledge of Trek isn't high, so bear with me); they wish to augment and change others and themselves to a better form. "Such sights to will show you" indeed.
Also, to differentiate themselves from devils (and other LE fiends), they may look towards Zon-Kuthon and the demogogues more as something to strive towards/honor rather than outright devotion or fealty towards them.
Asuras: Pretty much I see them looking at mortals similar to how Voldemort sees muggles - "Who cares about them? We are more exceptional...why would we care? Why should the gods favor them over us?"
I am not sure about the Pathfinder version of the demodands... but really, they are an embodiment of what imprisonment does to people. Forced to eternal imprisonment, all they can do is try to keep others in the prison as well. To "keep things running". Without any reasonable goal other than spreading their own misery to as many others as they can. Jaded prisoners, corrupt wardens, all the things we fear about prison. Despair in the complete absence of hope. Seeing the world and seeing it only as a great prison, where the strong feed upon the weak.
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The twist: Asmodeus. From the Book of the Damned we learn that he actually won the primeval war against his CG 'brother' Ithys. He held Sarenrae's life in his hands... and walked away. Why? Nobody is sure. He tells Sarenrae, more or less, 'you win' despite defeating his main opponent.
One of the cooler aspects of the Scarred Lands setting was that two of the original Titans, who preceded the gods (and were later overthrown by them) were sisters, named Mormo and Denev. Denev betrayed her kin and sided with their children, the gods, helping a trio of gods destroy her sister Mormo. (Those gods included the CE god of destruction, the NE goddess of the night and the NG goddess of the sun.)
As Mormo fell to her sisters betrayal, the NE goddess of the night, who was also the sister of the NG goddess of the sun, who both *hated* each other, looked at Denev ripping Mormo apart, and met the gaze of her own sister over the battlefield, the two of them silently agreeing that no matter how much they hated each other, their story would not end like this.
I wonder if the Ihys story was supposed to evoke a similar sentiment, that Asmodeus 'won' and realized in the winning that he's destroyed the only thing in the universe that was worth fighting over, the only person he regarded as a true equal. Everything else is just sitting on his throne and re-arranging pieces on the board out of boredom.
He 'peaked too early' and the rest of existence seems robbed of all vitality, as if the only thing that ever really mattered in his life already happened, making immortality a cruel curse.
I am not sure about the Pathfinder version of the demodands... but really, they are an embodiment of what imprisonment does to people. Forced to eternal imprisonment, all they can do is try to keep others in the prison as well. To "keep things running". Without any reasonable goal other than spreading their own misery to as many others as they can. Jaded prisoners, corrupt wardens, all the things we fear about prison. Despair in the complete absence of hope. Seeing the world and seeing it only as a great prison, where the strong feed upon the weak.
Demodands in Pathfinder don't really have that prisoner schtick. Instead, they are basically flawed creations of an attempt by the Titans to create life that was better than what the gods did.
They are much more oriented towards converting mortals away from god and towards their Titan patrons, even if they have to torture the piety out of them.
Wrath of the Righteous is suppose to have an article on them...so hopefully more info soon
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Kytons are probably my favorite, because unlike the other outsiders, they are not simply motivated by hate or lust for power. They want to improve people and I suspect in their own warped way see what they do as "good". It's just too bad that "improving" for a Kyton = OMG body horror for us.
Demons: Another classic. Slavering hordes of sin. Whim, passion, and self at the expense of all. Souls mean growth.
Representation: The petty criminal, severe criminals, teenagers They do what they want when they want. The Dothraki.
The twist: The Abyss/Lamashtu and the demons themselves. The abyss is no longer a passive place, it's more like an enormous organism with goals of it's own. It learns and when invaded can rally the disparate demons into a cohesive-ish force. Like the immune system responding to infection. Likewise, demons aren't forces of elemental destruction, rather corrupt, fecund life.
Actually, I tend to think of Demons as a similar role as the Asura. They are a representation of the god's mistakes that take a much more subtle and less apparent form.
If the gods created mortals, then why would they make us in such an imperfect fashion? The most obvious way this leads to demons would be the mentally ill. This is similar to a software bug, and unfortunately the gods have terrible customer service when it comes to fixing it.
The other method would be looking at how mortals create societies that eventually breed CE individuals. The way I tend to imagine it would be institutional inequality- the petty criminal who became so because he was given a raw deal and never given the chance to become anything better. But again, if this is a part of mortal society, created by human minds, then the flaws involved come from the inability of the gods to create a better creature or guide their flocks to a better solution.
This problem becomes particularly obvious in how demons were originally came about in the setting, as well as the system used for sorting out souls. Rather than trying to reform these twisted souls, the gods chose to instead simply dump them into the abyss like garbage. The fact that they ended up more like toxic waste, just waiting for a horrible disaster is due to the god's inattention.
Then desire for demons to destroy the world around them stems from a fundamental dissatisfaction with how the world treats them. Breaking represents the first step in starting over (although the demons themselves lack the foresight to give a proper answer to "what next?"). Daemons seem to have root, although they might not care about a "what next" at all, and simply wish for an end to the suffering.
Wrath of the Righteous is suppose to have an article on them...so hopefully more info soon
I'm looking forward to that article. I wonder how the abyss feels about the titans and demodands. Does it know? Does it care?
MMCJawa&DNero, glad to some other beings who appreciate the exquisite enlightenment of anguish. The Kytons are almost helpful, in a horrible, nightmarish way. 'I am improved. You are improved, if you have the strength. Together we progress towards perfection. Also scream for me.' I think that's part of what makes them so freaky. They do these horrible things that make even demons blanch, and sincerely believe it is for the best.
I wonder if the Ihys story was supposed to evoke a similar sentiment, that Asmodeus 'won' and realized in the winning that he's destroyed the only thing in the universe that was worth fighting over, the only person he regarded as a true equal. Everything else is just sitting on his throne and re-arranging pieces on the board out of boredom.He 'peaked too early' and the rest of existence seems robbed of all vitality, as if the only thing that ever really mattered in his life already happened, making immortality a cruel curse.
I've wondered about that too. It certainly seems like a possibility. It is the only thing we have record of him having any sort of emotional reaction to. Even with Sarenrae it feels like it's a result of her being Ithys'. Is he bored? Is it all part of a eons long scheme?
I love the Scarred Lands. The gods are Gods, and the titans are Titantic. Missed sword blows make canyons! I've wanted to do a campaign there, but always felt nervous about getting the right feel.
Denev is definitely the Red Mother. Siding with her children means tearing apart anything that threatens them. Also she fights as an entire mountain range. Awesome.
The true awesome of the Scarred Lands setting wasn't published until the last book (which makes kind of sense). It's a question that nobody thought about, but that had been staring everyone in the face since day one. Ouch.
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The true awesome of the Scarred Lands setting wasn't published until the last book (which makes kind of sense). It's a question that nobody thought about, but that had been staring everyone in the face since day one. Ouch.
Do tell! I think the last book I got was the compilation book about all the other continents they didn't get to explore, and it was a bit of a muddle to read, being, basically, three books worth of notes for stuff that didn't get developed...
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Even with Sarenrae it feels like it's a result of her being Ithys'. Is he bored? Is it all part of a eons long scheme?
I think its that Asmodeus knows he hasn't won yet.
He killed Ithys, but doing so only accomplished so much. We know that gods apparently are judged by Pharasma and go somewhere, but its kind of uncertain.
And what Ithys represented is still there. There are still people who choose independance, freedom and good over security. Free will still stands as a constant mocking triumph over Asmodeus reminding him that he can only kill the dissenters, he can't force them to dance to his tune.
Ithys' death might have been his greater triumph as a result. Choosing to die rather then fulfill Asmodeus' systems, his machinations and desires. He fulfilled his portfolio in a way that also renders him unassailable.
And thus the free will of people who don't belong to Asmodeus mocks him daily. He tries to get them to abandon themselves and their freedom for useless trinkets, money and power, trying desperately to prove his brother wrong. He plays at being strong, but ultimately his tyranny only exists by that thing he despises above all else, the consent of those to abandon their own wills.
I like that Pathfinder actually created a world where the big bad devil expy who goes on about all of his plans, and machinations and powers, and etc, is ultimately stymied just by saying 'no' to his punk ass.