Pinpoint Targeting and movment afterwards?


Rules Questions


Ok, it seems kinda obvious, but I got into a little bit of an argument with one of my players yesterday about it, so I wish to see if I was wrong.
And also see if I should change it, even if I was right.

Pinpoint Targeting wrote:

You can target the weak points in your opponent's armor.

Prerequisites: Dex 19, Improved Precise Shot, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, base attack bonus +16.

Benefit: As a standard action, make a single ranged attack. The target does not gain any armor, natural armor, or shield bonuses to its Armor Class. You do not gain the benefit of this feat if you move this round.

Now he did a Pinpoint Targeting (PPT) attack and then wanted to move his speed. I told him, he can't do that cause he used PPT. He disagreed obviously and said that only counts if you move before the shot.

To me the rules seems obvious: If you move, you can't use PPT afterwards. If you use PPT you can't move, but you can still use your move action for other stuff.

And that's how I ruled. Felt a bit like a dick, to not allow him to do the rest of his full attack either, but I figured in that moment "Ok they're 12th level, they should know by now how their feats work"

However he did also say this, and it got me thinking: "Ok, if I can't do this, then why would I use PPT? I would just flurry and shoot my 7 arrows at him" (he's a Zen Archer and took it via his bonusfeat)
To which I kind of have to agree. Even if it's a high AC target, chances are with his 7 attacks (4 of which are at full BAB) he'll hit at least once, maybe more than that, even though PPT might be a guaranteed hit.
It makes PPT useful in the Surprise Round, but that's pretty much it. Which seems horrible for a feat with those pre-reqs.

So two questions I suppose:
1) Did I rule correctly by RAW and RAI?
2) Do you think it's overpowered to houserule the feat and remove the movement restriction from it?


I believe you ruled it correctly.

I think the feat is only useful in a couple of cases, mostly against very big AC or when you went an arrow to hit. Maybe it’s meant to be usable with Vital Strike or the Arcane Archer that want to deliver a spell (I didn’t check the class to see if it would work). Or maybe to be used only in the surprise round.
You might want to allow the character to retrain the feat.


1) RAW, yes. RAI, probably yes.
2) Not at all. It's a level 16+ feat with a host of prerequisites.

A regular old fighter build might only have four iterative attacks if they weren't completely twinking out their bow skills with Rapid Shot and Manyshot and all the other bow feats. Maybe they're playing a melee fighter that keeps the bow handy for an opening volley. In such a case, Pinpoint Targeting might be useful against a great red wyrm with 39 AC but 0 touch AC, especially if you only have one Arrow of Great Red Wyrm Murderdeathkilling. But giving them a move afterward isn't going to break the game.

It won't work with Vital Strike though. It'll work with Arcane Archer if you have some way to get an extra standard action that round, but I'm not really sure that it'll work otherwise.


1. Since I don't see how it can retroactively reduce the damage already dealt and has no text preventing the character from moving if he uses it (he can't use it if he moves, that's an entirely different thing)... I think by RAW you are wrong but by RAI you are right.

2. Not at all. It's a terrible feat. I'd let it stack with Vital Strike, too.


I mostly agree with Stream of the Sky.


Not all options are created equal.

You move, you don't get the bonus from Pin Point Targeting. It could have been written more clearly and just said you cannot take move before or after using this feat. It would limit its usefulness to when you are unlikely to hit (requiring a 19 or 20 for your highest attack, I'm sure someone could do the math on it) and need to guarantee a hit.

I would just offer to let the player retrain the feat into something else.


Looks pretty clear to me. If you want to use PPT you can not move this round. If it meant what the player wanted it would say "if you move before taking the attack"

As for when you might use it - my Ranger last night (10th level, thank you Combat Style feats), vs young Red dragon. Can I reliably hit it with iterative attacks? no. Can I hit it using PPT? Heck yes. And thanks to Aspect of the Falcon, a 19 on the dice, and a +1 Icy Burst composite bow, I can do quite a bit of damage, too :-)


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Yes, it is quite clear.

It says you cannot use it if you've moved.

It does NOT say you cannot move if you use it.

The first statement being a causal relationship (cause --> effect; movement --> availability of the feat) does not in any way imply or mandate that the reverse be true.

But I think it was intended to not allow movement and shooting in the same turn, so I don't really care. Either way it's a terrible feat I wouldn't take.

Dark Archive

The feat is poorly worded. The intention of the feat and wording of the feat are not the same thing. What the feat should say is you can not use a move action to MOVE before or after the attack. You can still use your move action to do anything a move action can do except move.

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