Feral Mutagen Claws as Secondary Attacks with Vestigal Arms


Rules Questions

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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Vestigal arms does not normally grant additional attacks per round, but if I use weapon attacks with one set of arms, could the claw attacks granted become secondary natural attacks and be usable as secondaries with the -5, or the the clause in the Vestigal Arms discovery override that?

Sczarni

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Change...

Ellis Mirari wrote:
Vestigal arms does not normally grant additional attacks per round...

...to...

Quote:
Vestigal arms do not grant additional attacks per round.

...and you'll have your answer.

If you have two attacks normally, like from having a Base Attack Bonus of +6, then one attack could be with your two-handed weapon, and one attack could be with one of your claws, but Vestigal Arms do not grant you any additional actions or attacks during a round than you would have without them.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Yes.

The claws grant you attacks. You are not gaining an "extra" attack.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Yes.

The claws grant you attacks. You are not gaining an "extra" attack.

That's sort of what I'm thinking.

I already have the attack, I only can't use it because normally, I'm holding my weapons in the hand with the claws, and thus can't use them.


What Nefreet said.

You're trying to find a work around for getting an extra attack with a vestigial arm. There are none. Vestigial arms dot not grant extra attacks.

Instead of trying to find a loophole, why not just houserule it? Or at least talk with you GM?


And if you do change it, you shouldn't call it vestigial.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

This is no more attacks than two claws, and two boot blades.

There are no extra attacks happening here.

The arms discovery does not reduce your number of available attacks, despite what some posters say.


So to try and summarize:

1. With feral mutagen, you have two claw attacks and a bite attack.
2. When making a full attack, you may use any and all natural attacks you have, there is no limitation.
3. You cannot use a claw attack if you are holding an item in that hand.

The thing that is still making me stumble is that the wording is

PRD wrote:
The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist's attack routine (using two-weapon fighting)

So if I can wield one 1 of my 2 daggers in a vestigial hand without any increased penalty, the normal hand that is freed should be able to use my claw as a secondary natural attack, and by extension should also be able to keep both daggers in the vestigial hands and free up both claws to attack.


"grants no additional attacks" means any attack sequence you want to make must be still legitimate without having the vestigial arms.

Can you (without the discovery) legitimately make claw attacks and weapon attacks?

If yes, go ahead.
If no, having the extra arms doesn't change anything.


No. Been through this before. You don't get extra attacks. The intent and the raw are both pretty clear there.

Skr said the intent wasn't to give you a 4 armed dual greatsword weilding maniac either, but the raw specifically mentions that as something you can do (since, without gaining extra attacks, thats the only way to incorportate it into two weapon fighting as the discovery suggests)

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I don't believe you can duel wield two-handed weapons, either, given the FAQ about using TWF with a two-handed weapon and armor spikes.

Liberty's Edge

The majority of posters in this thread have it right.

The FAQ about armor spikes, however, was only meant for beings with 2 limbs. The alchemist should be able to cheat that one a bit.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Not with Vestigial Arms.

Liberty's Edge

Nefreet wrote:
Not with Vestigial Arms.

Do you happen to have proof that says the extra arm can't be used as a second hand on a weapon or are you simply trying to stretch multiple items past what they actually say? Because the FAQ doesn't have anything to do with 3 armed creatures.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I will search for SKR's quote regarding the matter.

EDIT: HERE you go!

"Sean K Reynolds, Jul 1, 2011, 12:35 PM wrote:

The intent is that you have an extra arm for holding stuff, not to turn you into a double-greatsword-wielding maniac.

The vestigial limb is also not giving you any extra actions. For example, a normal character can use twf to attack with a manufactured weapon in one hand and one unarmed strike, whether that's a punch, kick, or headbutt. He doesn't get multiple extra unarmed strikes per round just because he has an arm, two legs, and a head free. Therefore, you don't get any extra attacks just because you now have a vestigial arm, or two vestigial arms. You're still limited by the normal limitations of the attack sequence.

ADDENDUM: THIS FAQ should also be of use. During the thousand+ post discussion on the matter the design team clarified multiple times that the "unwritten rule" regarding handedness is that a PC only has two "hands" worth of actions it can take. Attacking with Armor Spikes and a Greatsword violates that unwritten rule, as does attacking with 2 two-handed weapons, regardless of how many hands you actually have.

Liberty's Edge

Nefreet wrote:

I will search for SKR's quote regarding the matter.

EDIT: HERE you go!

"Sean K Reynolds, Jul 1, 2011, 12:35 PM wrote:

The intent is that you have an extra arm for holding stuff, not to turn you into a double-greatsword-wielding maniac.

The vestigial limb is also not giving you any extra actions. For example, a normal character can use twf to attack with a manufactured weapon in one hand and one unarmed strike, whether that's a punch, kick, or headbutt. He doesn't get multiple extra unarmed strikes per round just because he has an arm, two legs, and a head free. Therefore, you don't get any extra attacks just because you now have a vestigial arm, or two vestigial arms. You're still limited by the normal limitations of the attack sequence.

That's awesome. Now show me where that's part of the rules and not just a forum post.

Quote:
ADDENDUM: THIS FAQ should also be of use. During the thousand+ post discussion on the matter the design team clarified multiple times that the "unwritten rule" regarding handedness is that a PC only has two "hands" worth of actions it can take. Attacking with Armor Spikes and a Greatsword violates that unwritten rule, as does attacking with 2 two-handed weapons, regardless of how many hands you actually have.

Now here you have an actual rules post. I had forgotten the last sentence. I wonder if that is also meant to apply to the summoner's eidolon, or to summoned monsters. . . "Nope, your eidolon can't use its great sword, your character used one hand to cast a spell so you only have one hand worth the actions left." Bleh. (Answer: Of course not, it is only meant to hurt martials.)

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Eidolons have their own rules for maximum number of attacks allowed, and summoned monsters are (generally) using natural attacks, which also have their own rules for maximum number of attacks allowed.

Liberty's Edge

Nefreet wrote:
Eidolons have their own rules for maximum number of attacks allowed, and summoned monsters are (generally) using natural attacks, which also have their own rules for maximum number of attacks allowed.

I know. And the actual FAQ didn't bother me in the context in which it was given. Just the fact that monsters (and casters) can break action economy in half, but monster race martial pcs / pcs who gain extra limbs, can't bothers me.


Isil-zha wrote:

"grants no additional attacks" means any attack sequence you want to make must be still legitimate without having the vestigial arms.

Can you (without the discovery) legitimately make claw attacks and weapon attacks?

If yes, go ahead.
If no, having the extra arms doesn't change anything.

If you have 2 vestigial arms, then you can wield a dagger in each vestigial arm, and make a normal TWF attack routine. This works exactly as if you were wielding the weapons in nor normal hands. You are entitled to the exact same attacks you would be in you wielded the same 2 daggers in your regular hands.

If you then drink a feral mutagen, you gain 2 claws and a bite attack. The rules state you can always use these attacks as secondary attacks as long as you are not doing something else with that limb.

The ruling about dualwielding 2-handed weapons is not applicable to this scenario.

TLDR: The extra attack are gained via the feral mutagen and not via the vestigial limbs.


Charender wrote:

TLDR: The extra attack are gained via the feral mutagen and not via the vestigial limbs.

If you did not have the vestigial limbs, could you make the same attacks?


Ellis Mirari wrote:
Vestigal arms does not normally grant additional attacks per round, but if I use weapon attacks with one set of arms, could the claw attacks granted become secondary natural attacks and be usable as secondaries with the -5, or the the clause in the Vestigal Arms discovery override that?

Vestigial arms NEVER grant extra attacks. Never, ever, not with a fox, not in a box.

So- no.


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Charender wrote:

TLDR: The extra attack are gained via the feral mutagen and not via the vestigial limbs.

If you did not have the vestigial limbs, could you make the same attacks?

Are you trying to imply that you can only do with 4 arms exactly what you could do with 2 arm?

The whole point of vestigial arms is that they let you do more.

Can you Dual Wield daggers with your vestigial arms?

Vestigial Arm wrote:


Benefit: The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time).

Special: An alchemist may take this discovery up to two times.

Yes, and this constitutes the alchemists normal attacks. These are not extra attacks in any sense of the word.

Can you make natural attacks with your normal limbs?

Feral Mutagen wrote:


Benefit: Whenever the alchemist imbibes a mutagen, he gains two claw attacks and a bite attack. These are primary attacks and are made using the alchemist’s full base attack bonus. The claw attacks deal 1d6 points of damage (1d4 if the alchemist is Small) and the bite attack deals 1d8 points of damage (1d6 if the alchemist is Small). While the mutagen is in effect, the alchemist gains a +2 competence bonus on Intimidate skill checks.

Note the specific use of the word "gains" as in "increase" or "more than normal"

and
Natural Attacks wrote:


Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and add the creature’s full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature’s base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type.
Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam). Such creatures attack with their weapons normally but treat all of their available natural attacks as secondary attacks during that attack, regardless of the attack’s original type.

Yes, and if they are making normal attacks(like say using TWF) all natural attacks are treated as secondary attacks and can be made as long as the hand with the claw is not holding a weapon.


That makes sense to me.


Nefreet wrote:
I don't believe you can duel wield two-handed weapons, either, given the FAQ about using TWF with a two-handed weapon and armor spikes.

Armor spikes was ruled to be "punching" with the spikes, so it occupies a limb.

While specifically against intent, Dual weilding greatswords seems to be allowed by the raw. The discovery seems to go out of its way to allow it.

Vestigial Arm (Ex): The alchemist gains a new arm (left or right) on his torso. The arm is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist's attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist's original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time). An alchemist may take this discovery up to two times.

Now, if you're going to use two weapon fighting and a vestigial limb , but don't get any extra attacks, how do you use the limb except by grabbing a greatsword?

The 3.5 language to avoid this sort of thing was "no extra attacks or more advantageous attacks"


Charender wrote:
The whole point of vestigial arms is that they let you do more.

Yes, you can do more as long as that "more' isn't more attacks or actions. Specific over-rides general and in the case of vestigial arms "The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round" .

Note that "The arm". If you somehow got extra arms thru something other than the vestigial arms alchemist discovery you'd might be correct. But as long as your extra limbs are from the discovery- then NO EXTRA ATTACKS.

Specific over-rides general. The devs haven't even bothered FAQing this as the rule is very very clear= "The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round".

Not to mention, no way that a minor class feature should give you more than you'd get from two feats.


DrDeth wrote:
Charender wrote:
The whole point of vestigial arms is that they let you do more.

Yes, you can do more as long as that "more' isn't more attacks or actions. Specific over-rides general and in the case of vestigial arms "The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round" .

Note that "The arm". If you somehow got extra arms thru something other than the vestigial arms alchemist discovery you'd might be correct. But as long as your extra limbs are from the discovery- then NO EXTRA ATTACKS.

Specific over-rides general. The devs haven't even bothered FAQing this as the rule is very very clear= "The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round".

Not to mention, no way that a minor class feature should give you more than you'd get from two feats.

Ok then....

I am carrying the ancient artifact of doomy doom. It is heavy, and requires me to use both hands. NORMALLY, I wouldn't be able to make any attacks, but having vestigial arms would allow me to make 2 more attacks than I would NORMALLY be able to. By your reasoning, I should not be able to make those attacks, because they are extra attack over what I normally would get.

OR

Normally, I could make an attack with my main hand, an off-hand attack with a boot blade, a claw attack, and a bite attack. Does that mean that with a single vestigial arm, I can make 2 dagger attacks, a claw attack, and a bite attack? Either way, 4 is my normal number of attacks, so I am not gaining any extra attacks.


Charender wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Charender wrote:

TLDR: The extra attack are gained via the feral mutagen and not via the vestigial limbs.

If you did not have the vestigial limbs, could you make the same attacks?
Are you trying to imply that you can only do with 4 arms exactly what you could do with 2 arm?

If by "do" you mean "attack" and you want to play by the rules, then yes.

There are, however, plenty of things you can do other than granting yourself extra attacks.
If you don't like the rule you can change it for your game but that doesn't change what the rule is.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

You can make two weapon attacks, and any available natural attacks.

Nothing about the Discovery, or that Armor Spikes FAQ, prevents this.

Two Daggers, two Boot Blades, or Armor Spikes and an Unarmed Strike, the rules don't care.

All those can be done with the Claws on the Vestigial Arms.

All those combinations are also the same amount, so, as I clearly stated, and should be clear to all those who can do addition, there are no extra attacks.


Charender wrote:


Ok then....

I am carrying the ancient artifact of doomy doom. It is heavy, and requires me to use both hands. NORMALLY, I wouldn't be able to make any attacks, but having vestigial arms would allow me to make 2 more attacks than I would NORMALLY be able to. By your reasoning, I should not be able to make those attacks, because they are extra attack over what I normally would get.

This is exactly what vestigial arms are made for: carrying artifacts doomy doom. NORMALLY you get 2 attacks; having your hands full would prevent you from taking those 2 attacks, but with vestigial arms you can still make those 2 NORMAL attacks. Vestigial arms don't let you make EXTRA attacks, but you can make you're NORMAL attacks with them even if your other arms are busy.

Quote:


Normally, I could make an attack with my main hand, an off-hand attack with a boot blade, a claw attack, and a bite attack. Does that mean that with a single vestigial arm, I can make 2 dagger attacks, a claw attack, and a bite attack? Either way, 4 is my normal number of attacks, so I am not gaining any extra attacks.

You could not make 2 dagger attacks, a claw attack and a bite attack without vestigial arms, so you can't make them with them. You could make a dagger attack, an off-hand boot blade attack, a claw attack, and a bite attack using a vestigial arm.


Quantum Steve wrote:
Charender wrote:


Ok then....

I am carrying the ancient artifact of doomy doom. It is heavy, and requires me to use both hands. NORMALLY, I wouldn't be able to make any attacks, but having vestigial arms would allow me to make 2 more attacks than I would NORMALLY be able to. By your reasoning, I should not be able to make those attacks, because they are extra attack over what I normally would get.

This is exactly what vestigial arms are made for: carrying artifacts doomy doom. NORMALLY you get 2 attacks; having your hands full would prevent you from taking those 2 attacks, but with vestigial arms you can still make those 2 NORMAL attacks. Vestigial arms don't let you make EXTRA attacks, but you can make you're NORMAL attacks with them even if your other arms are busy.

That is exactly my point. People are using a fuzzy and arbitrary definition of the number of attacks you are normally allowed, then saying that vestigial arms doesn't allow you to violate that.

Quote:


Quote:


Normally, I could make an attack with my main hand, an off-hand attack with a boot blade, a claw attack, and a bite attack. Does that mean that with a single vestigial arm, I can make 2 dagger attacks, a claw attack, and a bite attack? Either way, 4 is my normal number of attacks, so I am not gaining any extra attacks.

You could not make 2 dagger attacks, a claw attack and a bite attack without vestigial arms, so you can't make them with them. You could make a dagger attack, an off-hand boot blade attack, a claw attack, and a bite attack using a vestigial arm.

If can get 4 attacks without vestigial arms, then that is my normal number of attacks. Why can't I have 4 attacks using the vestigial arms?

Grand Lodge

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Vestigial Arms do not decrease the number of attacks available to you, no matter how aflame one's colon is.

So, without Vestigial Arms, two unarmed strikes, two claws, and a bite.

That's five. Legit.

Now, with Vestigial Arms, two daggers, two claws, and a bite.

Still five. Legit.

Nothing extra.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I feel that if SKR were a part of this discussion, he would disagree that those are equal comparisons.

Whether you have two, three, or four arms you can always make two unarmed strikes in accordance with however many natural attacks you have. That's been clarified multiple times before, so we should begin with that as a baseline.

PC with 2 arms: strike/strike/claw/claw/bite, no problem.

PC with 4 arms: strike/strike/claw/claw/bite, no problem.

Those extra two arms could even be used to hold a 50lb barrel, no problem, but things change the moment two of those hands are used to wield manufactured weapons:

PC with 2 arms: weapon/weapon/bite, no problem.

PC with 4 arms: weapon/weapon/bite, no problem.

PC with 4 arms: weapon/weapon/claw/claw/bite, problem.

Now those extra arms are being used to grant attacks above and beyond what a 2-armed PC would get. Your number of attacks did not decrease. You only had 3 to begin with.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Those are not above beyond.

Please note the math I provided above, with relevant weapon examples.

Five equals Five.

The same two armed PC can attack with two Boot Blades, two claws, and a bite.

You cannot turn a blind eye to the rules, and math, to make five greater than five.

There is no extra, no matter how you feel about it.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

But, can that same PC attack with two unarmed strikes, two boots, and a bite?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

That is more manufactured attacks than is normally available.

You know why, and how, your example, not only doesn't work, but is a ridiculous comparison.

Liberty's Edge

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Vestigial Arms do not decrease the number of attacks available to you, no matter how aflame one's colon is.

So, without Vestigial Arms, two unarmed strikes, two claws, and a bite.

That's five. Legit.

Now, with Vestigial Arms, two daggers, two claws, and a bite.

Still five. Legit.

Nothing extra.

Funny, you went from unarmed to daggers. Biased much?

Without vestigal arms, an alchemist gets 2 daggers, and a bite.

With vestigal arms, still gets 2 daggers and a bite.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

How does that matter?

You want it to be extra, but that does not make it so.

It is no different than adding a slam, or tail slap.

Creatures are allowed to make all natural attacks, in addition to manufactured attacks, as long as they don't use the same limb.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

...and as long as they're not using vestigial arms.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

The note in the discovery is letting you know that you don't get extra attacks from the arms, like a Marilith does.

You still don't understand the word "extra".

It is the number of attacks, and not what is used to make those attacks.

It does not matter if any of the attacks are made with the Vestigial Arms or not.

As long as the number is not higher than what is normally possible, it is fine.

Nothing extra is happening.

Liberty's Edge

blackbloodtroll wrote:

How does that matter?

You want it to be extra, but that does not make it so.

It is no different than adding a slam, or tail slap.

Creatures are allowed to make all natural attacks, in addition to manufactured attacks, as long as they don't use the same limb.

How many attacks does a character with claws, 2 daggers, and a bite get without vestigal limbs?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

The fact that it's Daggers, Boot Blades, or Unarmed Strikes is irrelevant.

As long as the number is the same, you are fine.

Liberty's Edge

blackbloodtroll wrote:

The fact that it's Daggers, Boot Blades, or Unarmed Strikes is irrelevant.

As long as the number is the same, you are fine.

Then you shouldn't have a problem answering the question. But you don't want to admit that your example falls apart when actually examined because you tried to sub in daggers in place of unarmed strikes.

You can go:

2 claws, bite, unarmed strike with or without vestigal limbs, but you can not use daggers because the limbs would be granting you additional attacks you wouldn't otherwise have without them.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

One of the following "5 attacks" options is not allowed. Can you tell which one it is?

Boot/Boot/Claw/Claw/Bite
Strike/Strike/Claw/Claw/Bite
Helmet/Armor Spikes/Claw/Claw/Bite
Dagger/Dagger/Claw/Claw/Bite

I'll give you a hint: it's the one that requires 4 arms to pull off.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Vestigial Arms do not decrease the number of attacks available to you, no matter how aflame one's colon is.

So, without Vestigial Arms, two unarmed strikes, two claws, and a bite.

Incorrect. The rules assume a humanoid biped without a tail or a balloon tied around its waist. The rules assume you are punching, despite the ability to re flavor that punch as a kick or a headbutt.

You cannot use the same limbs twice: you cannot drop your daggers and then punch with your hands.

You have two claws and a bite. Or you can two weapon fight (taking the penalties) and then add more penalty for the bite to have two punches and a bite. thats it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Unarmed Strikes are not a "rockem sockem" only thing.

Extra is extra, by meaning more, than before.

So, make up limits all you want.

That's not RAW.

Houserule, as it tickles your fancy.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

BBT, can an alchemist with 2 Vestigial Arms, 4 sets of claws, and a bite get off a Boot/Boot/Claw/Claw/Claw/Claw/Bite?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

You are still gaining the normal amount of manufactured attacks.

If you are being provided a natural attack from somewhere, then you can use it in addition to your manufactured weapon attacks.

These abilities that give you these natural attacks, are in sense, providing extra attacks.

Not the arms.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Really? You don't see the distinction?

Vestigial Arm (Ex) wrote:
The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist's attack routine (using two-weapon fighting).

A PC with two arms, claws, and a bite can claw/claw/bite (3 attacks).

And you're saying a PC with four arms, claws, and a bite can claw/claw/claw/claw/bite (5 attacks).

How is 5 not more than 3?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

So, it's manufactured/manufactured, plus the natural attacks provided by Feral Mutagen.

So, before, and after, this is the same.

What the manufactured is, does not matter.

The point is, that the number remains the same.

So, normal amount of manufactured, plus natural attacks.

Again, nothing extra.

With your "cannot do anything, but less" thoughts on the arms, then they are truly useless.

They could not perform any action, whilst you attack, by this made up restriction.
No holding Shields, torches, or even flipping the bird, as this means that the attacks made with the other hands, are "extra" in that they could not be done at the same time as the other actions.

That's not what the Discovery says.

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
blackbloodtroll wrote:
They could not perform any action, whilst you attack, by this made up restriction. No holding Shields, torches, or even flipping the bird, as this means that the attacks made with the other hands, are "extra" in that they could not be done at the same time as the other actions.

I asked this exact same question in one of those extraordinarily long threads back recently, and the answer I was given (pretty sure it was SKR) was that the intention was never to give you extra attacks, only hold things. The most effective combat usage would be to hold a shield in one arm, fight with two, and use the other as your "free" hand for if you needed one.

I didn't see a difference at the time, either, but now I simply count up the number of attacks. And, the way I see it now, is that 5 is greater than 3.

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