Feral Mutagen Claws as Secondary Attacks with Vestigal Arms


Rules Questions

101 to 118 of 118 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

If you want to have more than two "attack capable" limbs, then by RAW there are really only a few options.

You can use an alternate race that has more limbs (the Advanced Race Guide has the kasatha as an example in the Race Builder section).

Alchemists' vestigial limb (and tentacle) is specifically prohibited from being used in this manner.

Apart from a handful of very specific magic items (either limited or expensive), about the only way to gain extra limbs that can be used for additional attacks is to be a summoner: either a synthesist or through the 10th-level class feature Aspect (to gain the 2-point evolution Limbs). Add a two-level dip into ranger (natural weapon style) to qualify for Aspect of the Beast (Claws), and you have four primary claw attacks without "wearing a monster suit;" too bad it took you 12 levels to get there.

On the plus side, you can also qualify for Multiweapon Fighting if your Dex is 13 or more.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The rules are extremely clear and explicit in this case.

Vestigial Arms do not grant any extra attacks but can be used to make attacks with.

Claw attacks, as natural weapons, can be added to a full attack routine (at -5 if they're secondary). The only limiting factor on not being able to claw and dagger in the same round is the fact that the claw is clasped around the dagger, and can't exactly slash people while it is so preoccupied.

If you have two Vestigial Arms, the Feral Mutagen, and two weapons, you can make five attacks per round. The arms are not granting extra attacks, they are simply granting the means of delivering attacks that another ability (Feral Mutagen) granted you.


Nefreet wrote:
I won't say I'm sold 100% yet, but at least now I can equally present both sides of the issue if it ever comes up in a PFS game.

Also, as a tip for DMs, any build using this is going to have the same weaknesses that most TWF builds have, namely:

1. Damage reduction, being reliant on lots of of weaker attacks means that DR hurts. Further, it is difficult to alter you natural attacks to overcome DR.
2. Movement/Mook fights, unless you have access to pounce, you are going to struggle to get your full attack off.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
The Morphling wrote:

The rules are extremely clear and explicit in this case.

Vestigial Arms do not grant any extra attacks but can be used to make attacks with.

Claw attacks, as natural weapons, can be added to a full attack routine (at -5 if they're secondary). The only limiting factor on not being able to claw and dagger in the same round is the fact that the claw is clasped around the dagger, and can't exactly slash people while it is so preoccupied.

If you have two Vestigial Arms, the Feral Mutagen, and two weapons, you can make five attacks per round. The arms are not granting extra attacks, they are simply granting the means of delivering attacks that another ability (Feral Mutagen) granted you.

Question: Are you making more attacks with both your normal limbs and your vestigial limbs than you could using your normal limbs alone? If so, that qualifies as "extra attacks."

Sophist arguments otherwise do not change the "extremely clear and explicit" facts that using vestigial limbs to make attacks in addition to your full complement of attacks with your normal limbs is counter to both RAW and RAI as stated by the developers. Yes, you can use vestigial limbs in place of your normal limbs to make attacks, the same way you can use armor spikes or a kick to make an "off-hand" attack. However, the same way you can't attack with Two-Weapon Fighting (both hands), use armor spikes, and kick in the same round, you can't use vestigial limbs to gain more attacks than you would normally have.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

A normal Alchemist with Feral Mutagen, without Vestigial Arms, can attack with two claws, a bite, and two unarmed strikes.

That is five attacks, with out the arms.


I like the idea of a fixed number of attacks per round depending on the character level. Then this whole cheesy maximizing of attacks per round (natural attack stacking, special weapons, abilities,..) has an end.

Another idea are penalties on social skills for additional arms, tails, monstrous limbs and huge teeth. Sounds fair if you beat everything in combat but nobody talks with you in social encounters.

<sarcasm>
"Hey guys whats going on?"

"What the .. *screams loud*.. a halforc kobold bastard with four arms, claws on two hands, two exotic swords on his side, a tail with a blade, huge dangerous teeth and long living hair!"
"Call the guards! Protect the women and children! Close your doors and windows!"

</sarcasm>


Dragonchess Player wrote:
Question: Are you making more attacks with both your normal limbs and your vestigial limbs than you could using your normal limbs alone? If so, that qualifies as "extra attacks."

Wrong.

They are not extra attacks. They are the attacks you get normally from having natural attacks and manufactured attacks working in tandem.

Attacks that are in addition to your manufactured attacks are not the same as "extra attacks".

If you want to follow that logic, Iterative attacks are likewise out the window, since they are extra attacks (as compared to BaB 5 and lower, when you couldn't make any).

It's very clear unless you go out of your way to read otherwise.

What can you do with the Vestigial Arm? Anything a normal arm can do, except it grants you no EXTRA attacks.

Can you make manufactured weapon attacks and natural attacks together normally? Yes? Then they are not extra, now are they?

Can you pull a Marilith and start swinging 4 swords at once when you normally would not be able to?

No, because that is granting extra attacks it is normally impossible for you to have access to.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dragonchess Player wrote:
Question: Are you making more attacks with both your normal limbs and your vestigial limbs than you could using your normal limbs alone? If so, that qualifies as "extra attacks."

Ooh, awesome! An answer, no doubt backed up by a page citation that defines what "extra attacks" means and rules actually printed into a rulebook that agree with your opinion.

What page are they on? I'll wait.

Dragonchess Player wrote:
Sophist arguments otherwise do not change the "extremely clear and explicit" facts that using vestigial limbs to make attacks in addition to your full complement of attacks with your normal limbs is counter to both RAW and RAI as stated by the developers.

I'm really glad you have a quote from the developers clarifying this, since that would be the only way to know RAI. Can you link it to me?

Absent of a quote declaring that RAI is different, I'm afraid we must rely only on RAW (and common sense) and declare that the rules work as stated. There is not a single word that contradicts the idea that the two arms are perfectly capable of receiving claws and making attacks.

Dragonchess Player wrote:
Yes, you can use vestigial limbs in place of your normal limbs to make attacks, the same way you can use armor spikes or a kick to make an "off-hand" attack.

Incorrect, since the rules for natural weapons (the rules I was working with - I agree that the arms can't add attacks by wielding weapons without the Multi-Weapon Fighting feat) work differently than manufactured weapons.

Dragonchess Player wrote:
However, the same way you can't attack with Two-Weapon Fighting (both hands), use armor spikes, and kick in the same round, you can't use vestigial limbs to gain more attacks than you would normally have.

Again, we're in agreement. The arms add nothing whatsoever to the character, in any way, other than a limb to attach natural attacks to. Feral Mutagen adds two attacks to the character's repertoire. Vestigial Arm adds zero. You just can't qualify for Feral Mutagen's two extra attacks if you only have two arms to attach them to.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I've already shown how the number of attacks is the same with, and without, Vestigial Arms.

The types of attacks available changes with the arms, but the number does not.


I actually (surprising myself, even) think the Alchemist could use his weapon and claw attacks. I see a few rules interacting here:

VA doesn't grant extra attacks itself.
Feral Mutagen DOES grant extra attacks
Claws cannot be used if the "claw hand" is being used for weapons.
The "claw hand" is not being used, because you have other legal hands.

So they can use their claws and a weapon, but not anything else. This prevents the alchemist from doing anything else with his hands, like casting or bombs.

This may or may not be intended. It requires a lot of build focus, since all your natural attacks are at a -5 penalty on an already medium BAB class. I'd have to see the character in action to see if it was OP, but this isn't a character abusing a weird multiclassed or feat combo, it's two abilities of the same class.

For now, I think it's valid. You still couldn't dual-wield greatswords, but weapon-claw-claw seems valid.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Bizbag wrote:

I actually (surprising myself, even) think the Alchemist could use his weapon and claw attacks. I see a few rules interacting here:

VA doesn't grant extra attacks itself.
Feral Mutagen DOES grant extra attacks
Claws cannot be used if the "claw hand" is being used for weapons.
The "claw hand" is not being used, because you have other legal hands.

So they can use their claws and a weapon, but not anything else. This prevents the alchemist from doing anything else with his hands, like casting or bombs.

This may or may not be intended. It requires a lot of build focus, since all your natural attacks are at a -5 penalty on an already medium BAB class. I'd have to see the character in action to see if it was OP, but this isn't a character abusing a weird multiclassed or feat combo, it's two abilities of the same class.

For now, I think it's valid. You still couldn't dual-wield greatswords, but weapon-claw-claw seems valid.

The actual combo in question involves already having claws on your original two hands, such as by being a tiefling or a tengu. That way, you get a Bite(1d8)/Claw(1d6)/Claw(1d6)/Claw(1d4)/Claw(1d4) full attack. Which is perfectly legal, if a bit powerful for low levels. It falls off quick as soon as you brush up against damage reduction, though.


Oh, no, I would never say you get more than the two claw attacks. That's pushing it a bit, because it's the same rules-logic as two greatswords. It might not be particularly OP on its face, but once all your attacks are natural weapons you're just begging for combo abuse (weapon-claw-claw requires different magic items and spells to beef up).

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Bizbag wrote:
Oh, no, I would never say you get more than the two claw attacks. That's pushing it a bit, because it's the same rules-logic as two greatswords. It might not be particularly OP on its face, but once all your attacks are natural weapons you're just begging for combo abuse (weapon-claw-claw requires different magic items and spells to beef up).

Are we using opinions here or reading RAW? RAW is the topic discussed here, and it's clear that you get your four claw attacks. Two Tiefling claws, and two Feral Mutagen claws. You're right that it's stronger, but that doesn't do a thing to make it illegal.


Well, by RAW, I'd have argued that the claws are "overlapping", not "stacking", but see below:

I'm still leery of it, but it does still require the investment of two Discoveries, and it's limited by race. I the player wants to make a natural-weapon full attacks his build focus, that seems OK. They'll have to work hard to have a decent attack bonus, especially since they can't cast or bomb in that round.

So sure, I'm back in the Yes camp.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Bizbag wrote:
Well, by RAW, I'd have argued that the claws are "overlapping", not "stacking", but see below:

The Feral Mutagen doesn't say "your claws grow bigger if you already had some" and doesn't say it replaces anything. Therefore, when it says "you gain two claw attacks" I'd imagine that means you gain two claw attacks.


The Morphling wrote:
Bizbag wrote:
Well, by RAW, I'd have argued that the claws are "overlapping", not "stacking", but see below:
The Feral Mutagen doesn't say "your claws grow bigger if you already had some" and doesn't say it replaces anything. Therefore, when it says "you gain two claw attacks" I'd imagine that means you gain two claw attacks.

I would recommend you read the rest of the post you quoted before fiercely tearing down a perceived opponent. You might have read the part where I ended up agreeing with you.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Bizbag wrote:
The Morphling wrote:
Bizbag wrote:
Well, by RAW, I'd have argued that the claws are "overlapping", not "stacking", but see below:
The Feral Mutagen doesn't say "your claws grow bigger if you already had some" and doesn't say it replaces anything. Therefore, when it says "you gain two claw attacks" I'd imagine that means you gain two claw attacks.
I would recommend you read the rest of the post you quoted before fiercely tearing down a perceived opponent. You might have read the part where I ended up agreeing with you.

I'm not fiercely tearing down anyone, nor perceiving you as an opponent. I'm just civilly pointing out that I disagree with your RAW interpretation that I quoted above. I don't mean to be hostile about this disagreement - I just am declaring that the quoted portion is in opposition to how I have interpreted the rules. No judgments, personal attacks, or hostility is present, I promise. :)

Sczarni

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I think we need to discontinue the "common sense" and "RAW" arguments in this thread. Both sides are claiming them to be in their favor. At a certain point "common sense" and "RAW" break down to "how *I* interpret it to be is...".

If you're at a PFS table, expect variation. If you're in a home game, talk to your GM. I think it's going to have to be left at that.

101 to 118 of 118 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Feral Mutagen Claws as Secondary Attacks with Vestigal Arms All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.