Never played a rogue before, need some advice


Advice

Scarab Sages

so i've been playing rpgs since middle school (im 22 goin on 23 in october)and I have never played a rogue *insert shock and awe, with one or two gasps*. Im looking for advice for playing a pathfinder rogue. anything from "avoid taking this rogue trick" or "this feat will benifet you from the moment you take it" and anything in between.

The Exchange

Remember your character's role. Charging (unless you're a Scout archetype and somebody else is already drawing fire) is out. Do what you can to avoid fair fights at all costs. Watch for any opening that your teammates create and exploit them (delaying or readying can help with this); foes who are blinded or stunned (or similar conditions) have big ol' targets painted on them in RogueVision... Oh, and if your race doesn't have low-light or darkvision, it's a good idea to get items that enhance your senses so you can exploit bad lighting conditions without concealment getting in your way.

And brace yourself for some snark. Certain folks on the boards like to say (over and over) that the rogue has weak mechanics. It's like you've come to a Weight Watchers meeting for tips on how to cook with lard. ;)

Scarab Sages

Lincoln Hills wrote:

Remember your character's role. Charging (unless you're a Scout archetype and somebody else is already drawing fire) is out. Do what you can to avoid fair fights at all costs. Watch for any opening that your teammates create and exploit them (delaying or readying can help with this); foes who are blinded or stunned (or similar conditions) have big ol' targets painted on them in RogueVision...

And brace yourself for some snark. Certain folks on the boards like to say (over and over) that the rogue has weak mechanics. It's like you've come to a Weight Watcher's meeting for tips on how to cook with lard. ;)

joy, I love those "Lets ask Weight Watcher's how to cook lard" moments.

so, what should be my dump stat be?

The Exchange

Wisdom is a popular choice with some (relying on your class skill bonus to offset the drop to Perception and Sense Motive), since almost all the other abilities are drawn on to some degree. Strength is probably second-most-common, but a rogue who can't carry any swag isn't as much fun. ;)

Scarab Sages

Lincoln Hills wrote:
Wisdom is a popular choice with some (relying on your class skill bonus to offset the drop to Perception and Sense Motive), since almost all the other abilities are drawn on to some degree. Strength is probably second-most-common, but a rogue who can't carry any swag isn't as much fun. ;)

alright. Next question, what is a good starting equipment set up?


In terms of advice, it would be easier to give you suggestions, OP, if you decide on a concept you'd like to implement and take a crack at building it.

At the moment, suggesting a gear load-out is pretty subjective without a general idea of the build, level requirement, wealth level, etc.

Scarab Sages

Lamontius wrote:

In terms of advice, it would be easier to give you suggestions, OP, if you decide on a concept you'd like to implement and take a crack at building it.

At the moment, suggesting a gear load out is pretty subjective without a general idea of the build, level requirement, wealth level, etc.

wow... I got ahead of myself >_< I forgot to conceptualize the character first...


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I cannot recommend enough grabing the talented rogue by super genius games. That alone makes the rogue playable and makes it easy to put together a useful one.


Hmm... Rogues don't have a real dump stat. They can't dump Con or Wisdom because they have terrible saves. (Which you should try to remedy at some point. By 9th~11th level, saves should be a priority. I suggest you grab traits that boost your Fort and Will saves, and at some point, grab feats that do the same.)

They can afford to have lowish Str (10~12) if they go for TWF or Dervish Dance, but I'd advise against dumping it. Using a Dex based build also helps with AC, which is another real concern for Rogues. Besides, higher Initiative means you're more likely to attack flat-footed enemies and therefore, Sneak Attack them!

Oddly enough, you can dump Int and Cha without much problem, since you'd still have lots of skills and the class skill bonus compensates for the lower attribute, but who wants to play a dumb rogue with bad social skills?

Rogues are a very MAD class. But they can work.

There are many terrible Rogue Talents (Powerful Sneak quite possibly being the worst!), but there are quite a few good ones too, including the ones that give you an extra feat. (Finesse Rogue, Weapon training and Combat Trick). Thanks to the "SLA count as arcane spells" FAQ, Minor Magic is really good because it allows you to grab Arcane Strike and, if you really want to, Craft Wondrous Items.

There are some really cool Rogue Talents available at 10th level and beyond, including one that gives you Hide in Plain Sight, one that causes Str damage to enemies targeted by Sneak Attack and one that lets you use your Sleight of hand check to disarm opponents.

For skills, choose what role you want to be good at and pick skills accordingly. Rogues can easily fulfill 2~3 skill roles all by themselves.
Other than the iconic Rogue skills, there are a few others to consider. Linguistics is an underrated awesome skill! It can be use to forge documents and grant you a +10 on Bluff checks! You will be grappled at some point, so Escape Artist is a good call (BTW, grab Defensive Combat Training at some point).

Perception goes without saying, and UMD is incredibly powerful.

Oh, and forget about poison. Poison sucks. I know it's an iconic Rogue thing, but most poisons cost too much and have terribly low AC. It's just not worth the effort.


here come the lard recipes


Lamontius wrote:
here come the lard recipes

And what exactly is a "lard recipe"?


read the thread


Do I understand correctly that I'm not allowed to suggest making an Urban Ranger or Bard/Archaeologist if you want to play a Rogue?

Also, shouldn't this be in the Advice section? Or is Homebrew a hideout to get away from the weight watchers?


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Lamontius wrote:
read the thread

I did read the thread. Did you?

Sin Eater wrote:
so I've been playing rpgs since middle school (im 22 goin on 23 in october)and I have never played a rogue *insert shock and awe, with one or two gasps*. I'm looking for advice for playing a pathfinder rogue. anything from "avoid taking this rogue trick" or "this feat will benefit you from the moment you take it" and anything in between.

The OP asked for advice. I gave mine. I don't see how that's a "lard recipe". Would you rather I said "Do whatever you want! Rogues are awesome!"? How does that help the OP? He asked for advice, not reassurance. I didn't even go into "Go play a ninja/bard/inquisitor/whatever", I gave him advice about building a Rogue. That's more than you can say.

Stop acting like Rogues and those who play them are victims of an oppressive government.

The Exchange

Speaking of feats to take; Weapon Finesse, Improved Initiative, and Combat Reflexes are all very, very nice for this class (that last one, though, varies in utility depending on how conservatively your GM plays his monsters). I usually tack Iron Will or Great Fortitude on as well (depending on whether your Con or Wis are lower.)


Lamontius mocks, but I suspect Kolokotroni's advice is the best you'll get. Paizo rogues are not very good. With minor magic and arcane strike they're no longer the worst at combat within their limited combat niche of attacking flatfoots, but they're still pretty bad at combat and they're something like #4 to #5 at scouting behind the excellent inquisitor, bard, druid, and summoner (depending on how diverse the things are you need to recognize to give useful reports: bards and inquisitors are better at knowing stuff, but druids and summoners are generally worse) and #3 at face skills behind the excellent inquisitor and bard. I hope in PF-2 when it comes out they're at least a 4 levels plus cantrips caster to fix the magic utility gap. The talented rogue isn't on PFSRD that I've seen and it's not really my area of interest enough to buy so I don't know about it first hand, but I've heard good things about it.

P.S. Lard makes for absolutely decadent refried beans.


Best advice: decide what big fun.

Worst advice: optimize this way. (Rogues made of lard. Atarlost right, for certain job always other class can optimize better than rogue.)

So, what fun? Other than refried beans. Atarlost right with that too.

(Sad part of Troll culture is not safe for us to light our farts on fire.)


Lemmy wrote:
The OP asked for advice. I gave mine. I don't see how that's a "lard recipe". Would you rather I said "Do whatever you want! Rogues are awesome!"? How does that help the OP? He asked for advice, not reassurance. I didn't even go into "Go play a ninja/bard/inquisitor/whatever", I gave him advice about building a Rogue. That's more than you can say.

I think the "lard recipe" refers to trying to make an effective rogue out of the Rogue class being comparable to trying to lose weight while cooking mainly with lard. The Rogue class is the lard in this case.

The analogy isn't as good as it seems, though: my wife is losing weight very effectively without avoiding far in any way; she avoids carbs, and that works much better.

Or maybe the analogy still works, and you actually can make an effective rogue out of the Rogue class without being overshadowed by rangers, bards and inquisitors that do everything you do but better. But it's not going to be easy, and will take a lot of skill and discipline.

But seriously, take a good look at the Urban Ranger and the Archaeologist. They're both conceptually very close to the Rogue, and can do most of what the Rogue does (but better). They only lose the sneak attack. So only if sneak attack is absolutely vital to your character concept, should you really stay with the Rogue.

Or change the Rogue to a full-BAB class. It's a quick fix that won't make it overpowered, but it won't lag behind as much anymore. Or if you really want the standard Rogue, forget optimization and just pick the abilities you think are cool.

In the end, the most important question is: what do you really want to play? Why do you want a Rogue? What do you hope to get out of it?

Scarab Sages

wow, quite a bit of debate here.

In answer to the question of "Why do you want a Rogue?" and "What do you hope to get out of it?" I've never played a rogue, so I'm looking for new horizons and concepts to play with.

What book is the Archaeologist in? I just got an amazing idea from the name (no, not indiana jones)


Ultimate Combat in SRD


Sin Eater wrote:

In answer to the question of "Why do you want a Rogue?" and "What do you hope to get out of it?" I've never played a rogue, so I'm looking for new horizons and concepts to play with.

What book is the Archaeologist in? I just got an amazing idea from the name (no, not indiana jones)

It's in Ultimate Combat (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classArchetypes/bard.htm l). And it's definitely the Indiana Jones class, considering Bards start with whip proficiency, but more importantly, it's basically a different kind of Rogue.

He doesn't get the performances that a normal Bard does, but instead, he gets a bonus to everything he does that makes him practically a full-BAB class, as well as providing other bonuses (a limited number of rounds per day). He gets lots of Rogue abilities like Uncanny Dodge, bonuses to perception and disable device, access to rogue talents, etc. And he doesn't lose his spellcasting.

Due to losing his Versatile Performance he's not quite as much a skill monkey as a Rogue or standard Bard are, but 6 per level is still good.

I haven't played one yet, but it's definitely on my list.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

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Sin Eater wrote:
so i've been playing rpgs since middle school (im 22 goin on 23 in october)and I have never played a rogue *insert shock and awe, with one or two gasps*. Im looking for advice for playing a pathfinder rogue. anything from "avoid taking this rogue trick" or "this feat will benifet you from the moment you take it" and anything in between.

I like to design and play rogue builds, and this is my advice:

- You need to pick one or a handful of specializations.

What attracts you to the rogue? Sneak attack? The number of skills? The kind of skills they get? Rogue talents? Etc. Think about these things and pick a few things to focus on, building it around a solid concept. It's really tempting to go broad with the rogue, but it's better to find a niche and go deep with it.

Example concepts/specializations: Throat-cutter (specialist in Stealth and melee), Adventurer (specialist in lots of exploration skills), Sniper (specialist in Stealth and ranged attacks), Thief (specialist in the classic Disable/Perception/Sleight of Hand), Charming Fencer (feint build with party face skills), etc.

Think in particular whether you want to focus more on combat or more on skills, and whether you want to really shine in a certain area versus be a support character. For example, a build that maximizes potential of sneak attack may be very different from one that maximizes potential of skills at dungeon crawling, etc.

- Assuming you are building this character for a particular campaign, think about the party you are building for.

A lot of times rogues are designed to fill in gaps missing elsewhere in the party, especially as they have so many class skills. Others play front and center roles. Think also about how good your party members/fellow players are good at teamwork in combat.

I've played/run with groups that are EXTREMELY good at setting up flanking and keeping the enemy flanked; melee rogues kick ass with these groups because they almost always are getting their sneak attack damage off.

I've played with other groups where tactics are harder for them to grasp, and they're not as good at controlling the battlefield. In these scenarios, rogues who want to sneak attack often have to get a surprise attack off or focus on something like a feint build.

- Also think about the nature of the campaign

If you know your GM likes to throw in massive traps all over the place, and no one else in the party is specialized in dealing with traps, you may want to build a rogue really build around trapfinding.

If you're in a campaign that's likely to have very few traps or another party member (like an Urban Ranger) feels they have traps covered, you may want to pick one of the many lovely rogue archetypes that swap trapfinding for something else useful and focus on a different skill set.

Rogues are awesome in urban campaigns. Rogues may struggle in wilderness campaigns unless you make sure you train certain abilities, so it's important to be aware of what you're getting into (as it is with any class, really).

- Think about what ability scores you want to focus on

Rogues aren't necessarily MAD per se, but it can depend on what you want to do with them. As with the above advice, think about what you're specializing in. If you want to build a feint build, you'll probably want a good Charisma. Most rogues do well with a high Dexterity as they can only wear light armor and be effective (even if they get heavier proficiencies, some abilities only work in light armor, IIRC), so they rely on that to boost their AC; however, if you're really good at finding ways to boost AC otherwise and/or are picking a build where the light-armor build isn't important, you might be fine lowering it. You get a minimum of 8 skill ranks which is a lot, so you can decide whether you really need a high Int or not. Many rogues dump Wisdom, but as they get low Will saves and it's the skill behind Perception, you may not want to do so if you're playing a strong-willed detective type.

Some builds can get by on fairly min-max builds --- say, if you play a half-orc rogue with the thug archetype and get the Intimidating Prowess feat, and you focus on Intimidation-related builds (building up the Dazzling Display tree so you can ultimately render people flat-footed with Shatter Defenses and then sneak attack away at them), you can probably focus on Str and Dex and leave the rest as low as you feel like.

Others may require more balancing -- your classic TWF rogue who relies on flanking for most sneak attack damage is going to need a high Dexterity for those TWF feats but also have a good enough Strength he might be able to skip over the Weapon Finesse feat (which feels like one feat too many when you're trying to save your slots for all those TWF feats).

A pure trapspotter/lockpicker/sneaker may want Int and Wis decent, along with Dex, and not pay attention to the rest.

- Read over your rogue talents carefully

Rogue talents are in some ways the best and worst aspects of the class. Some of them add some truly cool abilities that only the rogue can really develop well ((the archeologist bard gets some rogue talents, but later in their build, half as many, and if you want to play a thief sort, they're a bad option because they do not get Disable Device as a class skill and most rogue-like related abilities don't develop until after several levels as well)). Some of them are so limited as to be useless--can only be used once per day or under very very specific circumstances or at penalties that make the ability pointless.

The ones I like best are usually the ones that enable mobility, like Fast Stealth and Fast Tumble. Also of course there are a number that grant bonus feats, and if you're doing a focused sneak attack build many of the sneak attack ones are awesome (but not all). If you're a trapfinding rogue, Trapspotter is awesome.

Best thing to do, again, is read them through yourself because it can depend on your concept which ones might work best for you.

In a nutshell, the answer is unfortunately "it depends." Rogues are a very versatile class so it depends a lot on exactly what you want to do with them, and it can be very tempting to spread yourself too thin with their abilities.

So the best advice I can give is come up with a really good, fun concept and then read over the rogue abilities and archetypes carefully and pick a few things you want to build on, and go from there.

Good luck and have fun.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

mcv wrote:
Sin Eater wrote:

In answer to the question of "Why do you want a Rogue?" and "What do you hope to get out of it?" I've never played a rogue, so I'm looking for new horizons and concepts to play with.

What book is the Archaeologist in? I just got an amazing idea from the name (no, not indiana jones)

It's in Ultimate Combat (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCombat/classArchetypes/bard.htm l). And it's definitely the Indiana Jones class, considering Bards start with whip proficiency, but more importantly, it's basically a different kind of Rogue.

He doesn't get the performances that a normal Bard does, but instead, he gets a bonus to everything he does that makes him practically a full-BAB class, as well as providing other bonuses (a limited number of rounds per day). He gets lots of Rogue abilities like Uncanny Dodge, bonuses to perception and disable device, access to rogue talents, etc. And he doesn't lose his spellcasting.

Due to losing his Versatile Performance he's not quite as much a skill monkey as a Rogue or standard Bard are, but 6 per level is still good.

I haven't played one yet, but it's definitely on my list.

I play an archeologist in a PBP and they are fun, great universal dungeon divers. One thing to note though is they get a lot of their abilities gradually as they level, and they do not get Disable Device as a class skill, yes, even though they get bonuses to the skill. Archeologists are an interesting rogue/bard hybrid but feel different to playing either a pure bard OR a pure rogue, which each also have their own areas of expertise and specializations. And notably, if you like rogues because you want to play around with sneak attack, you should not play an archeologist because they don't get it. (If you don't care about sneak attack and want to play more of a knowledgeable spellcasting explorer, then they're the way to go.)


1: Don;'t do it. The mechanics do not match the hype. Absent the word "rogue" you can usually achieve the same goal with better mechanics with another class.

2) If you must do it, consider the ninja. Its much better in combat. If you absolutely need If you don't like black clad pajamas, DON"T WEAR THEM. The entire point of the ninja is that no one knows you're a ninja! A fob with a rapier in a giant feathered hat? Perfect disguise.

3) consider a strength build with a reach weapon.

4) Ponder the noble tengu. 3 claw attacks at full attack +sneak attack without the under powered 2 weapon fighting. On that note...

5) two weapon fighting with sneak attack LOOKS awesome. OMG all the d6s for damage!!! ... the problem is that you don't always sneak attack and you don't always full attack. Sneak attacking full attacks tend to be a veritable celestial alignment to pull off.


Fist you need to think is this guy a skill guy or Combat guy?
Your basic rogue has 10 feats and 10 rogue talents for a level 20 build.

I would do 1 of these mixes:
75% Skill and 25% combat
50% Skill and 50% combat
25% Skill and 75% combat

Skill is stuff like +2+2 skill feat, Skill focus, Fast Stealth , Trap Spotter, extra trait, Stealth Synergy, Team Pick pocketing

3 kinds of skills

Phyical: Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str),Disable Device (Dex), Escape Artist (Dex), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), & Swim (Str).
all Basicly STR and DEX

Mental: Appraise (Int), Craft (Int), Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), & Sense Motive (Wis). All Basicly INT and WIS

Social: Bluff (Cha)*,Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Perform (Cha)**, Use Magic Device (Cha)***.
All CHA

*Bluff see Feint CM latter on.

** Only perfom as rogue if you have to multi class with bard or some thing weird

*** I feel it one of the most must have skill on your list.

Rogue has no dump stat.

If social are covered by some else in your group let them take it because you could very easily be stretched thin with your huge skill list.

As far as what skills I would spend 3 ranks on each type.
Then I would max out 2 and spend 1 every other level on 2.

Look at new traits form Ultimate Campaign that let you use STAT A for STAT B when using some skill.

Combat
Damage you are fine once you get them in the kill box. Ie in the flank or surprised round while they are flatfooted then once again with when beat them again before the go in initiative count.
To do this you need to go 2 of 4 routes.

A Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack
Cost 3 feats and can get till BaB is +4

B Combat Expertise & Improved Feint
Cost 2 Feat and may not all ways work.

C Skill Focus (Acrobatics) & Acrobatic + gear+ Max Skill Ranks
Cost 2 feat and risk of getting hit (you have low AC and MED HP)

D Improved Initiative, a trait that give +2 Initiatives, & good DEX
1 feat and 1 trait only work some of the time and then only in the first round.

To hit you have ¾ BaB and you attack for the most part attack True AC -2 or flat footed AC. So make sure you hit either by the number of swing or good BaB.
# of swing Two weapon fighting chain, weapon of speed and combat reflexes.
Good BaB Weapon focus, Weapon Finesse, and good + to Hit weapon do not waste time on +d6 to damage stuff.

Other good feats for rogue Team Work
Precise Strike*, Outflank, Broken Wing Gambit, Feint Partner, Improved Feint Partner, Pack Attack, & Seize the Moment

*only if you mult class to get Sneak attack dice back to even.

Feat Trap Power Attack and Pariah strike you do not BaB to give up unless you go single weapon. Stay away form this. They are a trap.

Defenses this is your big gapping weakness.
Your AC is low due to only light armor and no shield.
You only have one good save Reflex.
HP is Average D8

Equipment throw gold at this every time you get a chance. Or Traits but, I really do see you having the feats get these up to par.

Race I say human, Elf are ½ elf are the best.
Then average Dwarf & Halfling,
Then worst ½ ork, & Gnome

Human +2 to any Stat, +1 skill rank per level, move 30ft, and +1 feat at level 1.
If you use Advance race guilds for human take Focused Study. That plus one 1 extra rank per level by level 20. You have 2 skills with +6 mod and one with +3.
This makes human the most skill base race in the game. Draw back no better vision.
Focused Study: All humans are skillful, but some, rather than being generalists, tend to specialize in a handful of skills. At 1st, 8th, and 16th level, such humans gain Skill Focus in a skill of their choice as a bonus feat. This racial trait replaces the bonus feat trait

Elf was best it go straight rogue due to +2 DEX and + 2 INT.
Also Keen Senses but, it only +2 one skill that you will use.
Low light vision.
Move 30ft
If you use advance race guild swap anything for elven magic

½ elf this my go to if you multi class rouge.
+2 to Any Stat , Keen Senses, 1 free skill focus, move 30ft and low light vison.If you do not mult class then go elf or Human

If you multi class try for some make what do better and or fix your weakness.

I like Ranger 1 or 2 levels
Skill list some new skills, Favored enemy +2hit +damage +2 big list of skills, Track good BaB, Better armor, get shield, better weapons, bonus combat style feat, 2 good saves, let you use wand with no UMD.

Wizard 1 or 2 levels
Skill list some new skills, 1 good saves to one your weak, let you use wand with no UMD, spells, scribe scroll, familiar bonus (to a skill, save, INT, or a save), Alertness +2 Perception and Sense Motive. See Diviner or Enchanter. Skip bond item.

Druid 1 or 2 levels
Skill list some new skills, some what better armor, get shield, better weapons, 2 good saves to both of your weak saves, let you use wand with no UMD, and spell, and nature sense

Cleric 1 or 2 levels new skills, some what better armor, get shield, better weapons, 2 good saves to both of your weak saves, let you use wand with no UMD, and spell, and 2 domain powers

Fighter (Lore Warden) 1 or 2 level
good BaB, better weapons, 3 feat, and +2 fort

Cavalier
good BaB, Better armor, get shield, better weapons, +2 fort and Tactician (see all team work feats suggested).


*glances in* Rogues are MAD in that they need every score, but not so bad-MAD in that they can totally just go with 12's and 14's before racials.

Also, Archeologist is EXTREMELY fun, especially played as a 'Face' or 'Social Rogue'. Make sure to grab Lingering Performance at first level if you go this route; that and a decent AC make you a solid warrior for the first three levels, and after that you've got your second level+ spells to make up for the slow-but-not-terrible drop in pure combat performance.

Deathquaker mostly has this spot on, so 'll just point to their work for the rest of it- with the note that a good, high charisma rogue can serve a party EXTREMELY well, depending on the campaign, focusing on diplomacy, bluff, and sense motive to outwit NPC's and helping to avoid fights altogether. Plus, UMD- can still toss just the right wand/scroll in a pinch, if you must. (and enables Sneak Attack Disintegrates. Mmm....)
(Some GM's give experience for defeating the combat in -any- way, so check on this- you might be able to level off of telling enough goblins the guy they're after is thataway! >;3)


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Thug and Scout Archetype, Earthbreaker, Endorcer, Sap Adept, Sap Master, Vital Strike, Power Attack, Furious Focus.
Offensive Defense.

Fun:]


The rogue is great class from 4-8 the level. They really peak then. From level 9-12 then decline and start having big problems after that. The big problem is your offense falls behind and you defense stalls. So what this means it take you longer to kill enemies and the enemy is hurting you a lot more for it.

A simple fix is pick up leadership at 7th level and get yourself a Bard cohort. Make him you sneaking buddy. His buffs will increase you offense so that your lack of defense isn't as much of an issue and he can be your flanking partner. A rogue with Bard cohort is very dangerous thing.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

In my opinion the rogue class can be one of the best classes to play with. There are a lot of options to it and I think the actual role playing capabilities are easier to come by. Yes if you are worried about being affective in every combat then being a rogue may not be for you, but if you are worried about that you might as well play a fighter or paladin with high ac and massive to hit bonuses.
First thing you want to do is come up with a character concept that you really want to play and then build your character. Wanting to try something new is all good, but if you get three weeks down the road and don't like the rogue at all then you have to scrap all your work on that and build a new character.
I say if you make a rogue build it with a certain skill set that he is the best at. Optimize his skills, acrobatics, stealth, disable devise, bluff, perception, use magic devise. Make your rogue good at certain things in order position himself for sneak attacks during combat.
If you face a creature that a rogue can't hurt very well, like constructs or undead, then use your stealth, acrobatics, and use magic devise to be an extra party healer with wands and potions. se bluff and diplomacy in towns as a front for the group to get good prices on selling stuff or getting information for the next job the party will do.
I think if you are going to play a rogue you have to make it a character build and make the combat build secondary.
I have a high level rogue in one campaign and he uses feint very affectively in combat. Buff the bluff skill up using skill focus and deceitful if you want to go this route.
That's my advise.


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Laveral wrote:
If you face a creature that a rogue can't hurt very well, like constructs or undead

aggggggggghhhhh

okay now it is time to rogue in ways that are not terrible and to do that you start with this information instead of information that is wrong and/or old and/or not from this game

Enemy Subtypes Immune to Precision-based Damage (Sneak Attack):
• Elemental
• Incorporeal
• Ooze
• Protean (50% chance to ignore SA damage)

Enemy Subtypes Immune to Flanking
• Ooze (Immune to SA damage anyway)
• Swarm
• Elemental (Immune to SA damage anyway)

Enemy Subtypes Immune to Critical Hits
• Aeon
• Elemental
• Incorporeal
• Ooze
• Protean
• Swarm


I completely agree with the improved feint and great arcobatics skill (and mobility in case you miss the acrobatics skill roll)
It allows you to tumble across the battlefield to the flanking position without drawing attacks of oportunaty and sneak attack the oponent to snail snot. Improved feint will allow you to flatfoot an opponent with a move, instead of an action, so you do not even need to flank in order to sneak attack.
Sneak skill high is good as wel: If you are not noticed, you are no target.
Also in order to scout perception and trap spotter work really well.

Sczarni

I agree that sneak attack is hella hard to pull off without a dedicated partner.

My wife's rogue in the Council of Thieves AP got frustrated with the group and just took a wand of Darkness to let her get off Sneak Attacks.

My high mobility fighter in PFS always makes sure to set up flanking positions for any rogues at the table to give them a chance to shine in combat.

Even my "rogue" (urban ranger/ninja) in PFS only ever gets played when my wife plays my PC's twin. They have teamwork feats to increase chances to hit (Outflank) while flanking and regain the d6 of Sneak Attack lost by taking 2 levels of Urban Ranger (Precise Strike). We also split some of the skills between us (I took CHA, she took INT) in order to be able to cover just about any challenge.

If you're looking at a home campaign, bribe/extort another player to be your flank buddy. If you can get them to take Outflank along with you then it helps offset the rogue's poor BAB.

Honestly, if possible, convince your GM to let you use the Guide to the Talented Rogue and its followup with more Talents to choose from.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I stand corrected about the creatures immune to sneak damage. My apologies. Don't blow a gasket over it.


Selene the gypsy Ninja wrote:
My wife's rogue in the Council of Thieves AP got frustrated with the group and just took a wand of Darkness to let her get off Sneak Attacks.

And to highlight the problems the non darksighted rogue faces... if the creature she's stabbing isn't exactly on the edge of the light she can't sneak attack him, because they have concealment and concealment negates sneak attack.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Selene the gypsy Ninja wrote:
My wife's rogue in the Council of Thieves AP got frustrated with the group and just took a wand of Darkness to let her get off Sneak Attacks.

And to highlight the problems the non darksighted rogue faces... if the creature she's stabbing isn't exactly on the edge of the light she can't sneak attack him, because they have concealment and concealment negates sneak attack.

Great point, BNW, but also do not forget about the Shadow Strike feat, for taking some of the pain away from losing SA damage to concealment

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Lamontius wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Selene the gypsy Ninja wrote:
My wife's rogue in the Council of Thieves AP got frustrated with the group and just took a wand of Darkness to let her get off Sneak Attacks.

And to highlight the problems the non darksighted rogue faces... if the creature she's stabbing isn't exactly on the edge of the light she can't sneak attack him, because they have concealment and concealment negates sneak attack.

Great point, BNW, but also do not forget about the Shadow Strike feat, for taking some of the pain away from losing SA damage to concealment

If you're worried about vision, you can also dip into 2 levels of shadowdancer for free darkvision and the supernatural version of HIPS. Not a bad tradeoff for 2 levels of rogue.


Ok, having read the idea's in the thread so far, I have a few ideas with just the core rule book.
1) I like for my first rouge talent- trap spotter, makes it less likely to set off a trap before you spot it, and you don't need to actively look for the traps.
2) the second rouge talent is likely to be a toss up between finesse rouge, and fast stealth.

Remember that many times not being seen is your friend as a rouge.

For basic gear I like-
Studded leather armor ( low cost- especially at low level)
Rapier ( slightly better chance to crit, then short sword)
short bow/ light crossbow (hand crossbow is nice, for very tight spaces, but without poison can be under powered, also is very high cost for low damage)
a sap is almost a requirement in my opinion, A club is a good choice as it is cheap and can even be thrown
daggers as they are throw able, and easy to hide.

This is a "classic build"

Shadow Lodge

Drill it into your martial party members that they need to constantly be helping you get into flanks with every single turn. If they don't, it's like your party's output damage is halved (or more if you have more than one rogue in the party).


Halved? What do you expect the other classes to be?:P Sword'n'Board Fighters?

Sczarni

If you find yourself having trouble getting sneak attacks off, I recommend either the Major Magic talent choosing Grease, or simply getting a Wand of Grease and throwing skill ranks in UMD.

And speaking of grease...:

Rendered Lard

Ingredients:
1 pound pork fat, fatback, pork scraps or other unsmoked, uncured pork pieces
1/3 cup water

Directions :
Preheat the oven to 300 degrees F.
Cut the fatback into 1/4-inch cubes and put it into a 6 to 8 quart Dutch oven. Add the water. Put in the oven, uncovered and stir every 30 to 40 minutes, pressing the pieces against the pan in order to help them melt. Cook until the fat has melted, the water has evaporated and the pieces begin to brown slightly, approximately 3 to 4 hours. Pour through a fine mesh strainer into a heatproof container and allow the fat to cool completely before covering and storing in the refrigerator.

Read more at: http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/alton-brown/rendered-lard-recipe/index.h tml?oc=linkback


Ok, here's my suggestion: Half-orc Scout . Dump CHA like mad (see even I suggest a dump stat once in a a while).

20 pt build:
5 pts= Str 14+2 racial = 16
5= Dex14
10= Con 14
2= Int 12
2= wis 12
-4= 7

Feats: Dodge, then Mobilty (as your 2nd level Talent), then Spring attack, Toughness, then Skill focus Perception or Wind Stance.

Racial Sacred tattoo (+1 all saves) replaces Ferocity
Scavenger (+2 perception) replaces Intimidating

Traits: Take something that adds to your Init, then Fort saves, then will saves, etc

You use a Falchion, or if a magic great axe drops, grab it.

Max out Perc.

Once you get to 4th level, you don;t need to worry about Flanking buddies. Once you get to 8th, you Spring attack in and get SA almost every round.

Talents: 2- Combat Trick
4- Trap spotter (if a trap heavy campaign) or Weapon training or Resiliency, etc.

Shadow Lodge

Sin Eater wrote:
so i've been playing rpgs since middle school (im 22 goin on 23 in october)and I have never played a rogue *insert shock and awe, with one or two gasps*. Im looking for advice for playing a pathfinder rogue. anything from "avoid taking this rogue trick" or "this feat will benifet you from the moment you take it" and anything in between.

Get yourself into the proper frame of mind, and you'll do OK.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I am just gonna say it.

Trapper Ranger will do what you want, much better.

The archetype stacks with Guide, or Freebooter.

You will have more fun.

Well, unless being "The Load" is your kind of fun.

Some people like to have everyone else pick up where they fail, even if it's at just about everything.

Pathfinder has made the Rogue obsolete.

There, I said it.

Liberty's Edge

IMO, the Halfling Opportunist Prestige Class is the Rogue exemplar. You can check it in Halflings of Golarion.

It does suffer from the classic Rogue problem of too many facets that you just cannot incorporate in a single build though. You will need to choose, focus and specialize, whether it is at fighting, trap detection and management or infiltration/disguise.

Otherwise, a Kitsune Ninja (especially if the GM allows Rogue archetypes) or Rogue with the facechanging racial feat could be a lot of fun.

Shadow Lodge

blackbloodtroll wrote:

I am just gonna say it.

Trapper Ranger will do what you want, much better.

The archetype stacks with Guide, or Freebooter.

You will have more fun.

Right up until you try to cast Instant Enemy, and find out you don't have spells.
Quote:

Pathfinder has made the Rogue obsolete.

There, I said it.

A well-built rogue is a murder-machine in Pathfinder.


Wasum wrote:

Thug and Scout Archetype, Earthbreaker, Endorcer, Sap Adept, Sap Master, Vital Strike, Power Attack, Furious Focus.

Offensive Defense.

Fun:]

This "combat style" is what keeps rogues competitive. This should not go unnoticed, so I will just post the damage calculations from this build that certainly hit the eye.

At lvl 13: 2d6 (Earthbreaker) +4d6 (Improved Vital Strike) +10 (Strength & Overhand Chop) +2 (Weapon Specialization) +1 (Weapon Training) +4d6 (Sneak Attack) +4d6 (Sap Mastery) +16 (Sap Adept) +9 (Power Attack) = 14d6+38 or 87 damage on average.

Liberty's Edge

Sir Thugsalot wrote:
A well-built rogue is a murder-machine in Pathfinder.

Example of build ?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Sir Thugsalot wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

I am just gonna say it.

Trapper Ranger will do what you want, much better.

The archetype stacks with Guide, or Freebooter.

You will have more fun.

Right up until you try to cast Instant Enemy, and find out you don't have spells.
Quote:

Pathfinder has made the Rogue obsolete.

There, I said it.

A well-built rogue is a murder-machine in Pathfinder.

Cool snark bro.

The Freebooter and Guide do not have Favored Enemy.

They still add static damage though.


Scout/Skulking Slayer Half Orc.

St 17(race)
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 12
Cha 8

Str at all boosts.

2 level Lore Warden dip is recommended for the extra feats/skills... not necessary though.

Earthbreaker or heavy flail(if you plan 5 levels of fighter for weapon training, it is same weapon group as scorpion whip for ranged trips).

Expertise, Power Attack, Imp Trip, Greater Trip, Felling Smash. If you take Lore Warden for the 3 extra feats, Toss in Enforcer, Sap Adept, and Sap Master on the mix.

Charge, power attack, sneak to d8s. Free trip(Felling Smash). Greater trip to Dirty Trick: blind (due to skulking slayer sub for any melee attack when you could sneak and them being denied dex on a charge). Leaving them prone and blind. Or just another damage attack, if you think someone will get up to flank so you can blind them when they provoke for standing. Should be 2d6/d10 depending on weapon, +1/2 level d8, + 1.5 Str, +PA.

After 8th level, you can do this anytime you move 10 ft, not just on a charge, although the d8 sneak dice favor charges.

Mine is level 10(5 lore warden/5 rogue) doing d10+22+3d8 (19-20x2)on pretty much all attacks, and a +26 to trip for free, then another attack. Gloves of Dueling and a +1 Heavy Flail. If I used the Enforcer chain too, add another 3d8+12 damage to non-lethal

2k Feather Step Slippers/Feather step potions for difficult terrain. Later, 5k Boots of spider climb to run on ceilings/walls instead so allies aren't ever in the way of charge lanes, 16k Winged boots at high levels.

Shadow Lodge

Blackraven and blackblood, XMorsX posted it right above you.

That's ONE way to do it.

(IMO, a good dirty-trickster halfling will eat his lunch. You can't kill what you never see coming with a weapon which is now no longer yours.)

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