Asmodeus worshipers and demon consorting


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion


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I know devils and demons don't mix usually, but would LE followers of Asmodeus have issues with using demons for their own advantage via summons or bindings?

As a LE anti-paladin of Asmodeus in WotW would it be against my faith's tenants to have a demon as a fiendish servant?

From the demon's perspective would it make sense to be loyal to a powerful LE master? Demons are individuals and not cohesively aligned with each other, so is it feasable that one would align themselves with a LE character?

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I can't think of anything more antithetical to the faith of Asmodeus than consorting with demonkind, other than raising a chaotic good ranger.

Demons will ally themselves with ANYBODY. They will also cheerfully turn on their master in a heartbeat if they see the opportunity or perhaps just out of whim. The smarter ones will undermine and manipulate their masters over time.


I think the key issue is the whole loyal thing. Pretty much you can assume they are planning to have you play for the same team or kill you. Just a matter of how long it takes.

Dark Archive

As a divine follower of Asmodeus, you can't use spell with the chaotic or good descriptor.

All summon or binding spell have the descriptor of the creature you summoned or try to bind.

Summon Monster wrote:
When you use a summoning spell to summon a creature with an alignment or elemental subtype, it is a spell of that type.
Plannar Binding wrote:
When you use a calling spell to call an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type.

So as an Asmodean Cleric you can't summon or bind demon because the spell become an evil and chaotic one.

As an anti-paladin of Asmodeus it seem abnormal to have a demon as a fiendish servant.


Yeah, I was thinking more of a thrall than a loyal servant. I was hoping to have a servant I could use both in combat and social settings. Erinyes will work, but I really wanted something I could use subtly in politics and such and oddly enough the demon is the more civilized in this case.

I think everyone is right, though, that it just doesn't make sense. I wish there were more devil options in the summon monster list.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TLO3 wrote:

Yeah, I was thinking more of a thrall than a loyal servant. I was hoping to have a servant I could use both in combat and social settings. Erinyes will work, but I really wanted something I could use subtly in politics and such and oddly enough the demon is the more civilized in this case.

I think everyone is right, though, that it just doesn't make sense. I wish there were more devil options in the summon monster list.

Summon Monster has a duration of rounds... that's not really long enough to use for political advantage.


LazarX wrote:
TLO3 wrote:

Yeah, I was thinking more of a thrall than a loyal servant. I was hoping to have a servant I could use both in combat and social settings. Erinyes will work, but I really wanted something I could use subtly in politics and such and oddly enough the demon is the more civilized in this case.

I think everyone is right, though, that it just doesn't make sense. I wish there were more devil options in the summon monster list.

Summon Monster has a duration of rounds... that's not really long enough to use for political advantage.

The context is Antipaladin's Fiendish Servant which uses the Summon Monster list but is permanent along with other boosts.


Erinyes do not have to be the amazon out for blood fates that everyone thinks. Just like there are succubus assassin, there are those erinyes that are more...subtle.


Assuming Golarion's Asmodeus is roughly the same with your homebrew's Asmodeus then the answer is no.


You should read Book of the Damned: Princes of Darkness. It goes over Asmodeus. To answer your question, no. Asmodeus and Devils do not mix with, or like Demons. They are bottom of the barrel in the Great Beyond in their eyes (in my opinion). Asmodeus loathes mortals and hates chaos. Demons are corrupted mortals that bring chaos about on an epic scale.


Taason the Black wrote:
Erinyes do not have to be the amazon out for blood fates that everyone thinks. Just like there are succubus assassin, there are those erinyes that are more...subtle.

From their flavor text:

Yet despite their beauty, erinyes are not seducers—they lack the subtlety and patience required for such fine emotional manipulations, and instead vastly prefer to solve their problems with swift and excruciating violence.

Also, erinyes lack any form of inherent shapeshifting, so cannot appear human without an external alter self or something along those lines. They can't even use a hat of disguise to look human because of their type/wings.


It would be best to get yourself a "proper" servant... some lesser devil or some such. A LE Devil Worshiper trying to take a Demon as a subjugate would be like an Imgurian trying to do the same with a 4Chan member.

Dark Archive

Just remember, antipaladins don't mix with anything lawful or good as written. They embrace evil and chaos. Of course, a home game can change this.


Chris Ballard wrote:
Just remember, antipaladins don't mix with anything lawful or good as written. They embrace evil and chaos. Of course, a home game can change this.

Way of the Wicked anti-paladin variant allows for LE.

Once again, I agree with you all that demon's are not a consideration. Still wish I had the option of a more subtle fiendish servant.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ilmakis wrote:


As an anti-paladin of Asmodeus

If you can't see how wrong an Anti-Paladin of Asmodeus is as much a wrongness as the late unlamented "Paladin of Asmodeus", then there really is no point in saying anything to you.


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LazarX wrote:
Ilmakis wrote:


As an anti-paladin of Asmodeus

If you can't see how wrong an Anti-Paladin of Asmodeus is as much a wrongness as the late unlamented "Paladin of Asmodeus", then there really is no point in saying anything to you.

Fairly rude of you.

The way of the wicked campaign re-fluffs anti-paladins and allows them to be Lawful champions of an evil deity. They are not sowers of chaos and destruction, but evil champions of tyrannical order.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TLO3 wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Ilmakis wrote:


As an anti-paladin of Asmodeus

If you can't see how wrong an Anti-Paladin of Asmodeus is as much a wrongness as the late unlamented "Paladin of Asmodeus", then there really is no point in saying anything to you.

Fairly rude of you.

The way of the wicked campaign re-fluffs anti-paladins and allows them to be Lawful champions of an evil deity. They are not sowers of chaos and destruction, but evil champions of tyrannical order.

Since this ticket was not opened up in 3rd party/Homebrew, the assumption is that you're using standard Pathfinder rules.


LazarX wrote:
TLO3 wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Ilmakis wrote:


As an anti-paladin of Asmodeus

If you can't see how wrong an Anti-Paladin of Asmodeus is as much a wrongness as the late unlamented "Paladin of Asmodeus", then there really is no point in saying anything to you.

Fairly rude of you.

The way of the wicked campaign re-fluffs anti-paladins and allows them to be Lawful champions of an evil deity. They are not sowers of chaos and destruction, but evil champions of tyrannical order.

Since this ticket was not opened up in 3rd party/Homebrew, the assumption is that you're using standard Pathfinder rules.

This post is requesting advice regarding LE religion, devils, demons and their interactions. It's not about the single 3rd party alteration in our game that you seem so intent on focusing on that you edited quotes of mine to make them look foolish (specifically "As an antipaladin of Asmodeus" vice my original "As a LE antipaladin of Asmodeus"). Your intent is obviously not to contribute but to nitpick and derail for your own ambiguous agenda.

So yes. Rude of you.


ooooo he told you!


Excerpt from; Book of the Damned: Princes of Darkness on Erinyes

-----
Most use their misleading forms to draw close
to and ambush mortals—sometimes even posing as angels or
messengers of the gods. Little satisfies erinyes more than the
confused cries of mortals murdered or dragged bodily to Hell
by those they mistook for emissaries of their divine lords.
-----

So it's not as though they are inclusive of using violent or unsubtle tactics


karlbadmannersV2 wrote:

Excerpt from; Book of the Damned: Princes of Darkness on Erinyes

-----
Most use their misleading forms to draw close
to and ambush mortals—sometimes even posing as angels or
messengers of the gods. Little satisfies erinyes more than the
confused cries of mortals murdered or dragged bodily to Hell
by those they mistook for emissaries of their divine lords.
-----

So it's not as though they are inclusive of using violent or unsubtle tactics

Interesting. Sounds like I really do need to get my hands on that book.

Now that I think about it, a hat of disguise would work for helping one look like an angel instead of a devil since they're the same type. Still not exactly subtle, but at least less likely to cause a riot on sight.

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

Hide the scars, turn black wings white. Instant angel.


It's not a super long book, but it provides imo invaluable insight into the machinations and inner-workings of the Arch-devils(Including good ole' Asmodey), and includes a "Diablerie" of all kinds of devils.

I originally purchased the book to assist in creating a campaign that took place in Hell. It was a great help.

For someone playing a LE Anti-Paladin(my preferred alignment for such!) I would recommend it for background/rp/general purposes relating to your character.

Liberty's Edge

In answer to the OP, yes. I do believe that as much as Asmodeus and his infernal cohorts revile Demons and their chaotic, pointlessly destructive ways, Asmodean clergymen and women would be willing to take control of them. However, it would only be to use them as cannon fodder, and if they are not destroyed by the end of whatever nefarious scheme the Devil-worshippers have cooked up, the devil worshippers will probably destroy the demon themselves at the end. A loose demon that knows the identities of the beings who bound it is most definitely a loose end that needs to be tied.


How are you having a LE anti-paladin?


Third Party Material, Shalafi.


I C.


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I'm going to go against the grain and say that beating a demon into a servant of order would be exactly the sort of thing that a devil would relish. Asmodeus seems to be very keen on imposing order. Cheliax and Hell are both very fond of slavery and the worst sort of tyrannical domination. A demon wouldn't be any sort of valued ally or trusted servant - It would be a feral hound to be beaten and intimidated into compliance.

The important aspect here is that the demon is being forcibly enslaved to go against it's nature and serve within an ordered hierarchy. It is kept under control using magic, violence, and maybe some occasional rewards for good behavior. Look at the way Hellknight's handle law enforcement - They don't give a damn whether you're good or evil, lawful or chaotic. You will follow the law or they will come down on you.

Alternately - Research some variant on a helm of opposite alignment. Get together with some wizards and priests and figure out how to make a Helm of Orderly Compliance that will impose a lawful alignment on the victim and force them to comply with your wishes. The Helm of Opposite Alignment is a fearsome curse - Once the change takes hold the victim likes it and will fight to retain their new alignment. Who knows what would happen if you clamped an outsider down and stuck one on.

Hey, there's a third option - Go kidnap an Azata and force a helm of opposite alignment on it. Then hit it with Geas or something to bind it to serve you. I don't know what level you are, but a Bralani can charm person at will and has 15 cha while the much tougher Ghaele can disguise self along with a number of other powers. The Ghaele also has +19 to diplomacy and +20 to sense motive. A Bralani might even be vulnerable to Lesser Geas

In fact, forget everything else - Go questing for a Helm of Opposite Alignment, hunt down and kidnap a Ghaele, then make your own outsider spy/servant. It's pretty much exactly what you're looking for and you'd get brownie points with hell for bringing a wayward outsider around to Hell's way of thinking.


That is a very interesting take Frank.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
FrankManic wrote:

I'm going to go against the grain and say that beating a demon into a servant of order would be exactly the sort of thing that a devil would relish. Asmodeus seems to be very keen on imposing order. Cheliax and Hell are both very fond of slavery and the worst sort of tyrannical domination. A demon wouldn't be any sort of valued ally or trusted servant - It would be a feral hound to be beaten and intimidated into compliance.

The important aspect here is that the demon is being forcibly enslaved to go against it's nature and serve within an ordered hierarchy. It is kept under control using magic, violence, and maybe some occasional rewards for good behavior. Look at the way Hellknight's handle law enforcement - They don't give a damn whether you're good or evil, lawful or chaotic. You will follow the law or they will come down on you.

Alternately - Research some variant on a helm of opposite alignment. Get together with some wizards and priests and figure out how to make a Helm of Orderly Compliance that will impose a lawful alignment on the victim and force them to comply with your wishes. The Helm of Opposite Alignment is a fearsome curse - Once the change takes hold the victim likes it and will fight to retain their new alignment. Who knows what would happen if you clamped an outsider down and stuck one on.

Hey, there's a third option - Go kidnap an Azata and force a helm of opposite alignment on it. Then hit it with Geas or something to bind it to serve you. I don't know what level you are, but a Bralani can charm person at will and has 15 cha while the much tougher Ghaele can disguise self along with a number of other powers. The Ghaele also has +19 to diplomacy and +20 to sense motive. A Bralani might even be vulnerable to Lesser Geas

In fact, forget everything else - Go questing for a Helm of Opposite Alignment, hunt down and kidnap a Ghaele, then make your own outsider spy/servant. It's pretty much exactly what you're looking for and you'd get brownie points with hell for...

There's a strong argument for that trick not working. The Helm works jim dandy on mortals because they're mutable, they can change alignment like the tides. Outsiders like ghales and devils though, are alignment incarnate. They literally are constructed from the forces of alignment. It would take something considerably more powerful, artifact level to pull that off.

Silver Crusade

TLO3

You might want to look at the Hell Knight. In my opinion they would fit nicely into the roll of LE champion of Asmodeus

Hellknight

Silver Crusade

TLO3 wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Ilmakis wrote:


As an anti-paladin of Asmodeus

If you can't see how wrong an Anti-Paladin of Asmodeus is as much a wrongness as the late unlamented "Paladin of Asmodeus", then there really is no point in saying anything to you.

Fairly rude of you.

The way of the wicked campaign re-fluffs anti-paladins and allows them to be Lawful champions of an evil deity. They are not sowers of chaos and destruction, but evil champions of tyrannical order.

On behalf of the forums, I'd like to apologize for that. Yeah, it sucks when you try to have a thread about "how do I get X to work" only to have attempted threadkills based on "X is badwrongfun".

That said.

FrankManic already brought the point on devils imposing order on demons(and everyone else) to be very much up their alley, so certain absolutes do get fuzzier there. There's also the fact that the Blood War is not a thing in the Pathfinderverse. Things are....much more interesting now...

For example, some devils actually work alongside some demons and some celestials against a common foe - protecting the souls bound for Pharasma's court from the predations of daemons(because @#$% daemons). So there's that angle too.

Not having a hard-wired kill-on-sight attitude burned into every single demon and devil regarding each other also makes some rather unusual(and dangerous) alliances possible, whether it's a devil working as a powerful demon's majordomo and making a self-imposed challenge of imposing efficiency on his holdings or a marilith serving as an advisor/muse to a devilish general, giving him an unpredictable edge over his rivals. The demon/devil in charge in that situation would absolutely see themselves in the position of power and getting use out of their other-fiendly assets too.

Basically, anything based on enslaving demons and/or bending them to the will of Hell would be a very good thing in the eyes of Asmodeus.

But tread carefully, because playing with fire without taking the proper precautions is inviting disaster, and certainly not pleasing to Asmodeus. Any sort of demonic servant must be kept on a short leash. And if needed, thoroughly broken.

Dark Archive

As an Asmodeus follower, one would be less likely to use a demon as a footsoldier or minion, and be more likely to attempt to bind them and then bury them, or permanently destroy them.

A cleric of Asmodeus couldn't get away with this (can't summon chaotic things), but a wizard (sorcerer, summoner, witch, etc.) certainly could. Calling up demons for hellknights to practice killing, would be one tactic. Calling up demons and binding them into items so that their powers can be tapped by the forces of law, could be another (although that sort of thing might run the risk of corrupting the user and / or creating weapons that have an Intelligence and Ego score and CE alignment, since they have demons inside of them...).

Calling up demons and just binding them and burying them, in a futile effort to 'weaken the power of the Abyss, one demon at a time' could be thematically appropriate, but hardly effective. It's not like every mortal spellcaster in the world capable of doing that would put an appreciable dent in the number of demons the Abyss has lying around. Plus it's gonna be a terrible day when someone breaks into that vault o' demons and starts breaking stuff. 'Cats and dogs, sleeping together! Total chaos!'

Not every Asmodeus follower is exactly a genius, however, or the wisest branch on the tree, and it's entirely possible for one to get the notion in his head that he's going to 'fight fire with fire' by binding a demon and using it to root out chaos. (Much like that X-Men future where human supremacists thought it was the best idea ever to use mutant 'hounds' to track down and help them apprehend other mutants.) Asmodeus himself may shake his head at the tactic, but he, like every other god, has better things to do with his time than make a personal appearance to correct every single follower when they come up with a whacky idea. (Excepting his clerics, of course, whom he can flat out deny the ability to summon chaotic creatures!)

As for the threadcrapping, Flag it and move on.


I really like Frank's method and I plan on using that in a game. Then again, I'm totally okay with devils stomping their jackboots on demons ;)


Something to keep in mind as well is that, as a LE follower of Asmodeus, a devil will be much more less likely to try to screw you over, since if you are getting your powers it means Asmodeus is giving you his thumbs up on what you are doing. Devils are very hierarchical, and anything you can have as a servant is not going to want to tick off his boss.

A demon though should have no such qualms. It's going to to look for every opportunity it can to screw you or your companions over, and might just hold a grudge. At best, the demon might be neutral to you if you give it a lot of freedom to do what it wants, but that might not be in your best interests.

I could totally see a demon being used as disposable cannon fodder by a follower of Asmodeus, but nothing long term. And a follower who regularly resorts to that might get odd looks and whispers from other Asmodeus faithful...


ElyasRavenwood wrote:

TLO3

You might want to look at the Hell Knight. In my opinion they would fit nicely into the roll of LE champion of Asmodeus

Hellknight

Or he could stick with LE Antipaladin, which imho has always made more sense than a CE one

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Amodian Angels. I...okay I have a cool idea for a game.


Aren't those called the Erinyes?

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Icyshadow wrote:
Aren't those called the Erinyes?

Yes, yes, but I now have a use for them.

Dark Archive

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TheLoneCleric wrote:
Asmodean Angels. I...okay I have a cool idea for a game.

Tiefling 'Angels' "Good morning Asmodeus!"

Crystal Ball on Table "Good morning Angels, your mission today..."


Is there a place where we can read about the retooled LE Anti-paladin


LazarX wrote:
There's a strong argument for that trick not working. The Helm works jim dandy on mortals because they're mutable, they can change alignment like the tides. Outsiders like ghales and devils though, are alignment incarnate. They literally are constructed from the forces of alignment. It would take something considerably more powerful, artifact level to pull that off.

You could certainly rule it that way and it would make sense. These creatures just cannot be changed without unmaking them.

Personally, I'd go a different way running off the difference in a mortal and an outsider's free will. Outsiders do nominally have some degree of free-will because do do have fallen angels and the rare ascended demon. But whatever will they have is far, far more rigidly constrained and limited than that of mortals.

Mortals, on the other hand, do have true free will and the full force of that will drives their beliefs and actions.

My contention is that choice defines alignment. To forcibly overwrite a mortal mind's alignment would be far, far more energy intensive than overwriting an outsider specifically because they have choice.

To borrow some terms from AI theory - Mortals are general intelligences or strong intelligences while outsiders are weak or narrow AIs. Mortals can do anything, grow, and change in dynamic and unexpected ways. Outsiders can't. Outsiders are strictly constrained by a set of basic operating parameters that define their thoughts and actions.

My contention is that leaves them vulnerable to forcible re-programming. Because they have no will of their own they have no defense what so ever against having their alignment re-written. A human can decide that Good Feels Good and change their alignment accordingly. The most black-hearted evil son-of-a-lich in the world can still redeem herself and become good. As long as she's alive she has free will and the capacity to change. So even if you do clamp a helm of opposite alignment on her it might change her immediate thoughts and actions, but there is no guarantee that change is really permanent. Unless the magic of the curse totally subverts and controls the character their alignment can continue to drift and change over time.

Someone who gets flipped over from evil to good can still get lost in the bloodlust of battle, accidentally kill an ally, and gradually revert to evil because they like the thrill of violence more than they hate the feeling of shame from losing control.

Someone who flips from good to evil can still find themselves protecting someone for purely selfish reasons and, over time, find those selfish reasons transforming into something selfless.

An azata or a devil, however, doesn't choose. They just are. A devil can never become good of it's own accord, nor can an azata become evil. But if some outside agency gets into their head and re-wires a few things they can, according to this theory, be re-programmed into something else.

Eitherway, it's really up to the individual GM to make decisions on just how the mechanics of alignment works with Outsiders. It's always been a bit fuzzy.

Silver Crusade

karlbadmannersV2 wrote:
ElyasRavenwood wrote:

TLO3

You might want to look at the Hell Knight. In my opinion they would fit nicely into the roll of LE champion of Asmodeus

Hellknight

Or he could stick with LE Antipaladin, which imho has always made more sense than a CE one

Of course he could stick with a LE anti paladin. Perhaps a LE anti paladin who then goes into Hell knight? Hmmm I gotta get my hero lab out and see how that plays out.

I just thought the OP might find the Hell knight an interesting class, I wasn't trying to tell him "you cant have a LE anti paladin".

Hmm I wonder what ever happened to the "Black Guard"?


TLO3 wrote:
karlbadmannersV2 wrote:

Excerpt from; Book of the Damned: Princes of Darkness on Erinyes

-----
Most use their misleading forms to draw close
to and ambush mortals—sometimes even posing as angels or
messengers of the gods. Little satisfies erinyes more than the
confused cries of mortals murdered or dragged bodily to Hell
by those they mistook for emissaries of their divine lords.
-----

So it's not as though they are inclusive of using violent or unsubtle tactics

Interesting. Sounds like I really do need to get my hands on that book.

Now that I think about it, a hat of disguise would work for helping one look like an angel instead of a devil since they're the same type. Still not exactly subtle, but at least less likely to cause a riot on sight.

You would riot on sight of Erinyes? Interesting. I'll have to make note of that.

Not many mortals would look at an embodiment of law and order and think, "The best thing to do in this situation is draw attention to myself by causing chaos and a riot exactly now and in this place."


MMCJawa wrote:

Something to keep in mind as well is that, as a LE follower of Asmodeus, a devil will be much more less likely to try to screw you over, since if you are getting your powers it means Asmodeus is giving you his thumbs up on what you are doing. Devils are very hierarchical, and anything you can have as a servant is not going to want to tick off his boss.

A demon though should have no such qualms. It's going to to look for every opportunity it can to screw you or your companions over, and might just hold a grudge. At best, the demon might be neutral to you if you give it a lot of freedom to do what it wants, but that might not be in your best interests.

I could totally see a demon being used as disposable cannon fodder by a follower of Asmodeus, but nothing long term. And a follower who regularly resorts to that might get odd looks and whispers from other Asmodeus faithful...

Precisely -- if you planned correctly you shouldn't need such tools.

Now to plot to have an enemy you know uses such tools in front of another ene... ally so you can show that you are against such things to develop a relationship while you and the other slaughter the fools that uses demons well now, it was what they would have done anyways.


I've seen some really, really striking and gorgeous feather cloaks IRL. A full length cloak of raven feathers is just beautiful beyond words. Wouldn't be much of a stretch to turn a pair of wings into a feather cloak if you didn't move around too much...

RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32

ElyasRavenwood wrote:
Hmm I wonder what ever happened to the "Black Guard"?

The Blackguard prestige class never got updated to Pathfinder, that I am aware of. Fun fact, it's pronounced 'blaggard'.

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