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I know devils and demons don't mix usually, but would LE followers of Asmodeus have issues with using demons for their own advantage via summons or bindings?
As a LE anti-paladin of Asmodeus in WotW would it be against my faith's tenants to have a demon as a fiendish servant?
From the demon's perspective would it make sense to be loyal to a powerful LE master? Demons are individuals and not cohesively aligned with each other, so is it feasable that one would align themselves with a LE character?
I think the key issue is the whole loyal thing. Pretty much you can assume they are planning to have you play for the same team or kill you. Just a matter of how long it takes.
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As a divine follower of Asmodeus, you can't use spell with the chaotic or good descriptor.
All summon or binding spell have the descriptor of the creature you summoned or try to bind.
When you use a summoning spell to summon a creature with an alignment or elemental subtype, it is a spell of that type.
When you use a calling spell to call an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type.
So as an Asmodean Cleric you can't summon or bind demon because the spell become an evil and chaotic one.
As an anti-paladin of Asmodeus it seem abnormal to have a demon as a fiendish servant.
Yeah, I was thinking more of a thrall than a loyal servant. I was hoping to have a servant I could use both in combat and social settings. Erinyes will work, but I really wanted something I could use subtly in politics and such and oddly enough the demon is the more civilized in this case.
I think everyone is right, though, that it just doesn't make sense. I wish there were more devil options in the summon monster list.
Summon Monster has a duration of rounds... that's not really long enough to use for political advantage.Yeah, I was thinking more of a thrall than a loyal servant. I was hoping to have a servant I could use both in combat and social settings. Erinyes will work, but I really wanted something I could use subtly in politics and such and oddly enough the demon is the more civilized in this case.
I think everyone is right, though, that it just doesn't make sense. I wish there were more devil options in the summon monster list.
The context is Antipaladin's Fiendish Servant which uses the Summon Monster list but is permanent along with other boosts.
Erinyes do not have to be the amazon out for blood fates that everyone thinks. Just like there are succubus assassin, there are those erinyes that are more...subtle.
Assuming Golarion's Asmodeus is roughly the same with your homebrew's Asmodeus then the answer is no.
You should read Book of the Damned: Princes of Darkness. It goes over Asmodeus. To answer your question, no. Asmodeus and Devils do not mix with, or like Demons. They are bottom of the barrel in the Great Beyond in their eyes (in my opinion). Asmodeus loathes mortals and hates chaos. Demons are corrupted mortals that bring chaos about on an epic scale.
Erinyes do not have to be the amazon out for blood fates that everyone thinks. Just like there are succubus assassin, there are those erinyes that are more...subtle.
From their flavor text:
Yet despite their beauty, erinyes are not seducers—they lack the subtlety and patience required for such fine emotional manipulations, and instead vastly prefer to solve their problems with swift and excruciating violence.
Also, erinyes lack any form of inherent shapeshifting, so cannot appear human without an external alter self or something along those lines. They can't even use a hat of disguise to look human because of their type/wings.
Just remember, antipaladins don't mix with anything lawful or good as written. They embrace evil and chaos. Of course, a home game can change this.
Way of the Wicked anti-paladin variant allows for LE.
Once again, I agree with you all that demon's are not a consideration. Still wish I had the option of a more subtle fiendish servant.
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If you can't see how wrong an Anti-Paladin of Asmodeus is as much a wrongness as the late unlamented "Paladin of Asmodeus", then there really is no point in saying anything to you.
As an anti-paladin of Asmodeus
Fairly rude of you.
The way of the wicked campaign re-fluffs anti-paladins and allows them to be Lawful champions of an evil deity. They are not sowers of chaos and destruction, but evil champions of tyrannical order.
Since this ticket was not opened up in 3rd party/Homebrew, the assumption is that you're using standard Pathfinder rules.If you can't see how wrong an Anti-Paladin of Asmodeus is as much a wrongness as the late unlamented "Paladin of Asmodeus", then there really is no point in saying anything to you.
As an anti-paladin of Asmodeus
Fairly rude of you.
The way of the wicked campaign re-fluffs anti-paladins and allows them to be Lawful champions of an evil deity. They are not sowers of chaos and destruction, but evil champions of tyrannical order.
This post is requesting advice regarding LE religion, devils, demons and their interactions. It's not about the single 3rd party alteration in our game that you seem so intent on focusing on that you edited quotes of mine to make them look foolish (specifically "As an antipaladin of Asmodeus" vice my original "As a LE antipaladin of Asmodeus"). Your intent is obviously not to contribute but to nitpick and derail for your own ambiguous agenda.
So yes. Rude of you.
ooooo he told you!
Excerpt from; Book of the Damned: Princes of Darkness on Erinyes
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Most use their misleading forms to draw close
to and ambush mortals—sometimes even posing as angels or
messengers of the gods. Little satisfies erinyes more than the
confused cries of mortals murdered or dragged bodily to Hell
by those they mistook for emissaries of their divine lords.
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So it's not as though they are inclusive of using violent or unsubtle tactics
Excerpt from; Book of the Damned: Princes of Darkness on Erinyes
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Most use their misleading forms to draw close
to and ambush mortals—sometimes even posing as angels or
messengers of the gods. Little satisfies erinyes more than the
confused cries of mortals murdered or dragged bodily to Hell
by those they mistook for emissaries of their divine lords.
-----So it's not as though they are inclusive of using violent or unsubtle tactics
Interesting. Sounds like I really do need to get my hands on that book.
Now that I think about it, a hat of disguise would work for helping one look like an angel instead of a devil since they're the same type. Still not exactly subtle, but at least less likely to cause a riot on sight.
Hide the scars, turn black wings white. Instant angel.
It's not a super long book, but it provides imo invaluable insight into the machinations and inner-workings of the Arch-devils(Including good ole' Asmodey), and includes a "Diablerie" of all kinds of devils.
I originally purchased the book to assist in creating a campaign that took place in Hell. It was a great help.
For someone playing a LE Anti-Paladin(my preferred alignment for such!) I would recommend it for background/rp/general purposes relating to your character.
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In answer to the OP, yes. I do believe that as much as Asmodeus and his infernal cohorts revile Demons and their chaotic, pointlessly destructive ways, Asmodean clergymen and women would be willing to take control of them. However, it would only be to use them as cannon fodder, and if they are not destroyed by the end of whatever nefarious scheme the Devil-worshippers have cooked up, the devil worshippers will probably destroy the demon themselves at the end. A loose demon that knows the identities of the beings who bound it is most definitely a loose end that needs to be tied.
How are you having a LE anti-paladin?
Third Party Material, Shalafi.
I C.
That is a very interesting take Frank.
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If you can't see how wrong an Anti-Paladin of Asmodeus is as much a wrongness as the late unlamented "Paladin of Asmodeus", then there really is no point in saying anything to you.
As an anti-paladin of Asmodeus
Fairly rude of you.
The way of the wicked campaign re-fluffs anti-paladins and allows them to be Lawful champions of an evil deity. They are not sowers of chaos and destruction, but evil champions of tyrannical order.
On behalf of the forums, I'd like to apologize for that. Yeah, it sucks when you try to have a thread about "how do I get X to work" only to have attempted threadkills based on "X is badwrongfun".
That said.
FrankManic already brought the point on devils imposing order on demons(and everyone else) to be very much up their alley, so certain absolutes do get fuzzier there. There's also the fact that the Blood War is not a thing in the Pathfinderverse. Things are....much more interesting now...
For example, some devils actually work alongside some demons and some celestials against a common foe - protecting the souls bound for Pharasma's court from the predations of daemons(because @#$% daemons). So there's that angle too.
Not having a hard-wired kill-on-sight attitude burned into every single demon and devil regarding each other also makes some rather unusual(and dangerous) alliances possible, whether it's a devil working as a powerful demon's majordomo and making a self-imposed challenge of imposing efficiency on his holdings or a marilith serving as an advisor/muse to a devilish general, giving him an unpredictable edge over his rivals. The demon/devil in charge in that situation would absolutely see themselves in the position of power and getting use out of their other-fiendly assets too.
Basically, anything based on enslaving demons and/or bending them to the will of Hell would be a very good thing in the eyes of Asmodeus.
But tread carefully, because playing with fire without taking the proper precautions is inviting disaster, and certainly not pleasing to Asmodeus. Any sort of demonic servant must be kept on a short leash. And if needed, thoroughly broken.
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As an Asmodeus follower, one would be less likely to use a demon as a footsoldier or minion, and be more likely to attempt to bind them and then bury them, or permanently destroy them.
A cleric of Asmodeus couldn't get away with this (can't summon chaotic things), but a wizard (sorcerer, summoner, witch, etc.) certainly could. Calling up demons for hellknights to practice killing, would be one tactic. Calling up demons and binding them into items so that their powers can be tapped by the forces of law, could be another (although that sort of thing might run the risk of corrupting the user and / or creating weapons that have an Intelligence and Ego score and CE alignment, since they have demons inside of them...).
Calling up demons and just binding them and burying them, in a futile effort to 'weaken the power of the Abyss, one demon at a time' could be thematically appropriate, but hardly effective. It's not like every mortal spellcaster in the world capable of doing that would put an appreciable dent in the number of demons the Abyss has lying around. Plus it's gonna be a terrible day when someone breaks into that vault o' demons and starts breaking stuff. 'Cats and dogs, sleeping together! Total chaos!'
Not every Asmodeus follower is exactly a genius, however, or the wisest branch on the tree, and it's entirely possible for one to get the notion in his head that he's going to 'fight fire with fire' by binding a demon and using it to root out chaos. (Much like that X-Men future where human supremacists thought it was the best idea ever to use mutant 'hounds' to track down and help them apprehend other mutants.) Asmodeus himself may shake his head at the tactic, but he, like every other god, has better things to do with his time than make a personal appearance to correct every single follower when they come up with a whacky idea. (Excepting his clerics, of course, whom he can flat out deny the ability to summon chaotic creatures!)
As for the threadcrapping, Flag it and move on.
I really like Frank's method and I plan on using that in a game. Then again, I'm totally okay with devils stomping their jackboots on demons ;)
Something to keep in mind as well is that, as a LE follower of Asmodeus, a devil will be much more less likely to try to screw you over, since if you are getting your powers it means Asmodeus is giving you his thumbs up on what you are doing. Devils are very hierarchical, and anything you can have as a servant is not going to want to tick off his boss.
A demon though should have no such qualms. It's going to to look for every opportunity it can to screw you or your companions over, and might just hold a grudge. At best, the demon might be neutral to you if you give it a lot of freedom to do what it wants, but that might not be in your best interests.
I could totally see a demon being used as disposable cannon fodder by a follower of Asmodeus, but nothing long term. And a follower who regularly resorts to that might get odd looks and whispers from other Asmodeus faithful...
TLO3
You might want to look at the Hell Knight. In my opinion they would fit nicely into the roll of LE champion of Asmodeus
Or he could stick with LE Antipaladin, which imho has always made more sense than a CE one
Aren't those called the Erinyes?
Is there a place where we can read about the retooled LE Anti-paladin
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Or he could stick with LE Antipaladin, which imho has always made more sense than a CE oneTLO3
You might want to look at the Hell Knight. In my opinion they would fit nicely into the roll of LE champion of Asmodeus
Of course he could stick with a LE anti paladin. Perhaps a LE anti paladin who then goes into Hell knight? Hmmm I gotta get my hero lab out and see how that plays out.
I just thought the OP might find the Hell knight an interesting class, I wasn't trying to tell him "you cant have a LE anti paladin".
Hmm I wonder what ever happened to the "Black Guard"?
Excerpt from; Book of the Damned: Princes of Darkness on Erinyes
-----
Most use their misleading forms to draw close
to and ambush mortals—sometimes even posing as angels or
messengers of the gods. Little satisfies erinyes more than the
confused cries of mortals murdered or dragged bodily to Hell
by those they mistook for emissaries of their divine lords.
-----So it's not as though they are inclusive of using violent or unsubtle tactics
Interesting. Sounds like I really do need to get my hands on that book.
Now that I think about it, a hat of disguise would work for helping one look like an angel instead of a devil since they're the same type. Still not exactly subtle, but at least less likely to cause a riot on sight.
You would riot on sight of Erinyes? Interesting. I'll have to make note of that.
Not many mortals would look at an embodiment of law and order and think, "The best thing to do in this situation is draw attention to myself by causing chaos and a riot exactly now and in this place."
Something to keep in mind as well is that, as a LE follower of Asmodeus, a devil will be much more less likely to try to screw you over, since if you are getting your powers it means Asmodeus is giving you his thumbs up on what you are doing. Devils are very hierarchical, and anything you can have as a servant is not going to want to tick off his boss.
A demon though should have no such qualms. It's going to to look for every opportunity it can to screw you or your companions over, and might just hold a grudge. At best, the demon might be neutral to you if you give it a lot of freedom to do what it wants, but that might not be in your best interests.
I could totally see a demon being used as disposable cannon fodder by a follower of Asmodeus, but nothing long term. And a follower who regularly resorts to that might get odd looks and whispers from other Asmodeus faithful...
Precisely -- if you planned correctly you shouldn't need such tools.
Now to plot to have an enemy you know uses such tools in front of another ene... ally so you can show that you are against such things to develop a relationship while you and the other slaughter the fools that uses demons well now, it was what they would have done anyways.
Hmm I wonder what ever happened to the "Black Guard"?
The Blackguard prestige class never got updated to Pathfinder, that I am aware of. Fun fact, it's pronounced 'blaggard'.