How racist should the NPCs be?


Pathfinder Online

Goblin Squad Member

Now, one of the things that really sets Golarion apart is that there's loads of tension between the nominal PC races.

Humans think they're the high-tom-titty and are the paragons of racial intolerance and pride. Half-Orcs are the bastard children of two races who have been beating the hell outta each other for millenium, hated and loathed by all. Halflings are the slaves of half a dozen nations. Dwarves have no tolerance for 'free spirits' and carry a racial grudge that's a corner-stone of their entire society. Elves look down on the 'lesser' races, and believe the current domination of Humans on Golarion to be a merely temporary condition, and the occupation of the territories they abandoned to escape the Age of Darkness to be a horrible insult. Half-Elves live in-between two worlds, treated with envy and lust by Humans and disgust and contempt by Elves. And Gnomes are either adorable or insane, chaotic engines of change and the eternal search for new experiences, be they for good or ill.

So, what I'm asking is "Should the NPCs react differently due to the race of the PC(s) in question, or should their reactions be dictated by Alignment and Renown alone?"

Goblin Squad Member

I'm not too sure what GW's plans are for NPC's. I believe they will be integral to NPC starter zones as training wheels.

So in those areas I'd highly favour if the devs can script it in variation in NPC reactions eg using honorific speech between elves and between dwarves whereas aloofness of Elves to humans and shades of friendliness. That all adds to inform players about the world and the history and foreshadows the sort of alignment and other conflicts ahead!

I could easily see a group of Elves perform the "Royal Hunt" every new moon and go looking for a Half-Orc to slay. Would be neat if their knucklehead or scalp could be claimed and put in the trophy room etc = in-game leisure activity.

Goblin Squad Member

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Interracial conflict is such a staple of high fantasy that I think the game would feel lacking without it. What fantasy world with elves, dwarves and orcs in it doesn't have a history of war and animosity between these races? If they can manage to have the NPCs reflect this through dialogue or actions I can only see that it would benefit the game.

Goblin Squad Member

Ive always found it a bit jarring when I run into a racial enemy NPC and they cheerily greet me as though were bosom buddies. If the lore says there are tensions between the races, then I would highly prefer to see those tensions in game beyond just jacking up the prices from hostile traders ala "I overcharged that haughty elf. Ha! Thatll show him whos boss!".

Goblin Squad Member

Each significant character in a story differs from every other significant character in that story. Environmental characters display variant and deviant tendencies as ambience for character development. Whether environmental NPCs should or should not exhibit racial prejudices is dependent on the environment the design intends, but significant NPCs (if there are any: and with the factions I should expect there will be) should certainly each be unique. Will it be important for a significant NPC to NOT exhibit overt racism? If so, then clearly that must vary from the norm.

Goblin Squad Member

I'd rather not have the developers wasting their time on something trivial as this and instead focus on making the game more open for the player, so that we may make the story. Rest assured I will be plenty racist to make up for it.

Eating elf flesh, crafting bags out of dwarf skins and shoving spiders down drow throats.... Ah...

Goblin Squad Member

Being wrote:
Each significant character in a story differs from every other significant character in that story. Environmental characters display variant and deviant tendencies as ambience for character development. Whether environmental NPCs should or should not exhibit racial prejudices is dependent on the environment the design intends, but significant NPCs (if there are any: and with the factions I should expect there will be) should certainly each be unique. Will it be important for a significant NPC to NOT exhibit overt racism? If so, then clearly that must vary from the norm.

That sounds like taking the quality of writing (if for NPCs) to another level: Personality as well as characteristics of racial normal prejudices? I think for the starter zones where the devs can instruct in the lore of Pathfinder, the Paizo peeps could likely really go big. Thornkeep for eg there's some great stuff in there: Real quality. :)


[/small mostly off topic rant] This is a good example of why I've always hated the word "race" when referring to different types of humans IRL. We're not different races, we're different colors and different physical characteristics. However, with a very tiny percentage or exception identical genetically. Hell, Chimpanzees are a different species and they're only 4% different than us. I'm guessing the most genetically divergent human are a most .001 percent genetically different. "Race" is just the wrong word. We need a new one. [/end rant]

I think what you mean is how Species-ist should an NPC be? It's fantasy. I say if an NPC hates elves or dwarves go for it.

Goblin Squad Member

It's not "race", it's "culture". And "culture" can make a huge difference.

Goblin Squad Member

The word "race" has rather ambiguous definitions when referring to real life. Some people say there's no such thing as race, other people say those people are using too narrow a definition when they make that claim, others claim to be colorblind, and others pretend to be another species altogether.

You're just going to get a headache trying to convince people of anything regarding that word.

But in Pathfinder race has a clear cut meaning. Elves are not a different culture than humans, they are a different race. Like the word or not, that's how it works in Pathfinder.

Goblin Squad Member

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There we go playing the race card again. </sigh>

Goblin Squad Member

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

[/small mostly off topic rant] This is a good example of why I've always hated the word "race" when referring to different types of humans IRL. We're not different races, we're different colors and different physical characteristics. However, with a very tiny percentage or exception identical genetically. Hell, Chimpanzees are a different species and they're only 4% different than us. I'm guessing the most genetically divergent human are a most .001 percent genetically different. "Race" is just the wrong word. We need a new one. [/end rant]

I think what you mean is how Species-ist should an NPC be? It's fantasy. I say if an NPC hates elves or dwarves go for it.

Well... it gets more muddled than that when we talk a fantasy world

Species, Noun: "a group of living organisms consisting of similar individuals capable of exchanging genes or interbreeding. The species is the principal natural taxonomic unit, ranking below a genus and denoted by a Latin binomial, e.g., Homo sapiens ."

The existance of half-elves, would make elves and humans by definition the same "species".

Of course what is really complicated, is when we factor in things like "half dragons" etc... which would make absolutely no sense on a taxonomic standpoint. It is pretty much assumed that they are created via a dragon polymorphing into the race it intends to breed with, but at that point, either A. The genetics material does not change, and thus offspring cannot be produced, or B. The genetic material changes, in which case the child would not be part dragon. C. The genetic makeup between dragons and the traditional races is actually astonishingly similar and once you take out the minor issue of organs fitting the issue is solved.

To some extent, in fantasy universes, to some extent fantasy authors move to a general system of, if sentiant organisms reproductive organs can fit, they can produce offspring. Which is pretty far from the way the real world works, and completely destroys any way to use real world taxonomics to define the difference between things.

I suppose MST3K's mantra applies here, Just repeat to yourself it's just a game, you should really just relax.

Goblin Squad Member

Onishi wrote:
The existance of half-elves, would make elves and humans by definition the same "species".

I've always wondered if half-elves breed true (not in fantasy literature, but in the official materials of the games). There are some close species that can breed, but their offspring are sterile. Mules are the classic case, a cross between a horse and a donkey. There are other species that are closer (like maybe horses and zebras?) and the offspring can breed for 2-4 generations before they get major problems and the line stops. A good reason to go through life upset at your parents.

Goblin Squad Member

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People need reasons to be upset at their parents these days? How the world has changed...

Goblin Squad Member

Nah, reasons aren't needed, but valid ones are like a breath of fresh air!

Silver Crusade

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AvenaOats wrote:
I could easily see a group of Elves perform the "Royal Hunt" every new moon and go looking for a Half-Orc to slay. Would be neat if their knucklehead or scalp could be claimed and put in the trophy room etc = in-game leisure activity.

Said elves would be evil as hell.

While racism is present in Golarion, it isn't Warhammer. All the cultural prejudice in the world won't get them a free pass with the setting's cosmic morality.

Silver Crusade Goblin Squad Member

It depends on the theme of the campaign and region you're in. Korvosa is a pretty racist city (and that's just between different breeds of humans). The Shackles is pretty open-minded as far as race goes.

In general I let race inform a first impression, from an NPC but the player's characterization will determine how interaction continues from there. Evil NPCs will be more racist than neutral NPCs (who will usually just be racially ignorant/prone to believe wild stories like Elven Royal Hunts).

Goblin Squad Member

Hmmm.

This is really intriguing. I do enjoy this type of play.

GW is a US company. It is intended to sell to a PG-13 audience.

This is not race in the human definition, but they have lawyers advising what they can do.

While part of the fantasy heritage, I do not see GW building this in.

Lam

Goblin Squad Member

Mikaze wrote:
AvenaOats wrote:
I could easily see a group of Elves perform the "Royal Hunt" every new moon and go looking for a Half-Orc to slay. Would be neat if their knucklehead or scalp could be claimed and put in the trophy room etc = in-game leisure activity.

Said elves would be evil as hell.

While racism is present in Golarion, it isn't Warhammer. All the cultural prejudice in the world won't get them a free pass with the setting's cosmic morality.

I'm sure you know more about the setting than I do. But there are ways for players to explore "Evil" and divisiveness is one of them.

Dark Archive Goblin Squad Member

Yeah, give racism to NPCs... because no one is going to bring that in in real life!!!

This is a GAME people. People play to have fun. People play to be someone else. The last thing you want is to create your hero and have them treated like crap because of race, gender or religion. We get enough of that BS in real life. We don't need NPCs doing it too.

By all means, have nasty, bigoted NPCs where appropriate, but make no mistake, the more racism there is, the more everyone will play white male humans or even worse... not play at all.

Anyone who thinks that is unrealistic- get over it! Golarian has magic. Golarian has Gods that grant divine power. And all those Good gods say, "Don't be a racist shmuck!"

And it makes perfect sense for Golarian to be less racist than the real world. Racism is a learnt behaviour and while every race thinks it is better than the others, they have also had millenia of trade, learning and worshiping the same gods with those other races.

And if you still think racism should be part of the game, protest by playing a black, female character- not so much fun now is it?

Morons!

In answer to the original question, NPCs should act based in their own qualities... not the qualities of the person they address. Lawful Goods will most times try and treat everyone equally, Chaotic Evils will treat people based on relative power.

Goblin Squad Member

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Pryllin wrote:
And if you still think racism should be part of the game, protest by playing a black, female character- not so much fun now is it?

Do half-elves work? Our entire race is viewed as bastards by the other races. Especially our parent races.

I don't think anyone is advocating sexism or skin-color based prejudice. I think what people are talking about is typical fantasy dwarves don't like elves, elves think their crap doesn't stink, and nobody likes orcs.

This is really a pretty minor issue either way. I don't expect there will be much NPC interaction, and I look forward to the roleplayers that will call me a "bastard halfblood", or the elves looking down their noses at everyone. They're just jealous of my beard anyway.

I find the ridiculous, almost comical nature of fantasy racism just highlights how pointless it is in real life. That was after all, the entire point of the rivalry and then friendship between Gimli and Legolas that really started the whole "racist" tones in fantasy.

Goblin Squad Member

Can I ask you a question: If you have "all-dwarf" settlements, then surely you can have an "hate-all" (note inverted commas) X? You have your in-groups and your out-groups: Pick reasons that reinforce those either positively or negatively, surely? Pick your reasons from a list.

I'll caveat by saying you may know more about the setting of Pathfinder than I do and how Alignment is used to ask such questions. Is there not some bad blood between some of the races from historic conflict? Please inform.

Goblin Squad Member

If your character is of a race that an NPC hates, the NPC should begin chasing you around with a pitchfork while the Benny Hill music plays. You can attempt a diplomacy check but you are at a -4 penalty because of the pitchfork.

Goblin Squad Member

I think NPCs having flavored text is a wonderful thing to have. It can be done in such a way and still be PG-13 as well. It can be as simple as an elf giving another elf a warm and respectful greeting, yet giving a human a cold greeting.

If you play an alien race on the Imperial side of SWTOR be prepared to be called scum at least once every other quest conversation (that's an exaggeration).

Goblin Squad Member

Pryllin wrote:


In answer to the original question, NPCs should act based in their own qualities... not the qualities of the person they address. Lawful Goods will most times try and treat everyone equally, Chaotic Evils will treat people based on relative power.

There is that, but I'm talking more flavour text and the occasional interaction 'quirk'.

When you first enter an area with NPCs, let's say you're a Halfling and they are Humans, your flavour text from some Humans will be different. Taldor- and Keleshite-origin NPCs might refer to you by slave terms, or they might actively avoid said terms because they themselves left their homelands due to objection to said slavery. Others might treat you like a child, others might treat you like a normal person.

It helps set players into the game and give them potential RP hooks. Is your character an actively anti-slaver adventurer? Do you just keep your head down for fear of being beaten by the 'long shanks'? Have you lived free all your life?

That said, come back after you've done some adventuring or made a name for yourself in the market, the a~%!+!~ NPCs might be on an entirely different footing, forced to choke back their bigotry and kiss your ass, or you'll leave them hanging, in a variety of ways at that.

Goblin Squad Member

Nymerias wrote:
If you play an alien race on the Imperial side of SWTOR be prepared to be called scum at least once every other quest conversation (that's an exaggeration).

Unless you're a sixth pureblood. I never played one but I remember having their superiority lorded over me as a human when I tried out some of the imperial classes.

There was even a quest where I had to go scan the instructors at the Sith Academy to see how "pure" their blood was. "Pure" meaning high amounts of Sith blood.

Goblin Squad Member

Lam wrote:

Hmmm.

This is really intriguing. I do enjoy this type of play.

GW is a US company. It is intended to sell to a PG-13 audience.

This is not race in the human definition, but they have lawyers advising what they can do.

While part of the fantasy heritage, I do not see GW building this in.

Lam

Turbine managed it just fine in DDO. They have a chain of quests for the game based around a villain who deeply hates all other races (Lord of Blades)

Not to mention the beholders.

Goblin Squad Member

Also aren't we avoiding the ESRB? Since the game isn't going to be sold/advertised in stores where little johnny and his idiot parents can pick it up, there's no reason to sugar-coat the game and round off the sharp edges of Golarion's gritty political scene.

Goblin Squad Member

Well according to Ryan they'll side-step it for practical reasons. But atst Paizo does come with conditions they'll impose on the level of idk what you call it "maturity rating?" of materials in game. So it's still a delicate area to deal with, I'd guess?

Most major retailers will not sell a packaged game without an ESRB rating. You can't get them approved for production for any of the major consoles either. So virtually every game you play has an ESRB rating.

However MMOs are a special case because most of the time you'll get the game directly from the publisher and there are no middlemen. Therefore there's no reason to pay for the expense of participating with the ESRB, or with dealing with the fines they impose for violations of their codes (which are steep, and the codes are complex).

Until and unless we decide that we need to make a retail product, and get pushback that such product must be ESRB rated (or PEGI rated in Europe), and we decide that it's worth the hassle to comply, we'll probably sidestep it.

RyanD

I think exploring Evil Alignment and of course adding colour to the world via such differences between races and personality variety is a good thing.

Certainly Evil might be the trickiest to explore and differentiate atst as keeping things "exploring themes balancing jumping into the void". Things like sacrifice, slavery, torture, cannabalism, devil worship etc all have a place but to what degree they are represented in any form?

Goblin Squad Member

HalfOrc with a Hat of Disguise wrote:
Also aren't we avoiding the ESRB?

Don't forget Vic's contribution a bit later in that thread:

Vic Wertz wrote:
ESRB rating or not, Paizo will not be approving content that would be inappropriate for the average 13-year-old.

Goblin Squad Member

Pathfinder itself is rated teen. That means anything from the Pathfinder books is appropriate for Pathfinder Online. That includes:

- Fantasy racism
- Slavery
- Drug use and addiction
- Moderately suggestive themes
- Moderately violent themes

It does not include:

- Graphic depictions of violence
- Nudity and graphic depictions of sexual activity

This is not a commentary on what is right and wrong, or what we should allow / not allow teens to be exposed to. Just a simple statement of what is in the teen rated Pathfinder franchise, and what's not.

Silver Crusade

Andius wrote:


It does not include:

- Graphic depictions of violence
- Nudity and graphic depictions of sexual activity

To clarify just a bit, sometimes Pathfinder can get very violent and gruesome in its artwork. From people being shot in the head to INSERT ZON-KUTHON RELATED ARTWORK HERE, it doesn't shy away from horrifying imagery. But it keeps it within certain boundries too. It doesn't go fulltilt into "exploitation film" level gore or Riki-Oh levels of silliness.

That is, Pathfinder can go all the way up to John Carpenter's The Thing at times. But it doesn't engage in ridiculous (and downright offputting) Lamentation of the Flame Princess levels of violence.

I guess one way to put it is that Pathfinder can get up to the original Hellraiser at times, but it doesn't dip into whatever the latest Torture Porn 64 sequel is out in theaters this year. Class, tact, and restraint really. ;)

Goblin Squad Member

And I'd argue that Seoni is borderline porn, so that's probably as far as 'nudity' could go ...

............

We need a Rule 63 Seoni, just for balance issues.

Goblin Squad Member

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HalfOrc with a Hat of Disguise wrote:
And I'd argue that Seoni is borderline porn...

Really? I just browsed images of Seoni and I have to say I didn't get that impression at all. I can see how someone would call Red Sonja "borderline porn", but I'm really not getting it with Seoni...

Sczarni

This is a interesting Question...

Back in the Old days of Ever Quest. Before there was a WoW. You could get a Guise of the Decivier. It was a Mask that would let the wearer turn into a Dark Elf. Was cool One of the neat things about the Mask was if you were a Troll or Oger there were Cave/Dungeons you could not get thru... this made you smaller.

Anyway My Cleric a High elf Try to use it in the dark elf city to go do a Quest line that took you down there for something... Too long ago and been hit too many times in the head to remember. The guards attacked her because she did not worship the same God's as them... "detect Good"

few week later i was in the Bank in the high elf City bumped the Hot key to use the Guise... Bamm your dead Guards in the High elf City killed me for being a Dark elf ...

In EQ you lost EXP when you died...

This made me re-roll my barbarian as a Agnostic and then they put Armor set in the game that were linked to the God you worshiped...

Goblin Squad Member

chris szymanski wrote:
... then they put Armor set in the game that were linked to the God you worshiped...

Sometimes, you can't win for losing :)

Goblin Squad Member

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Ah, the memories. I must resist reminiscing aloud in this thread..

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
HalfOrc with a Hat of Disguise wrote:
And I'd argue that Seoni is borderline porn...
Really? I just browsed images of Seoni and I have to say I didn't get that impression at all. I can see how someone would call Red Sonja "borderline porn", but I'm really not getting it with Seoni...

The greater debate of course is things that in the pathfinder books were present, but not detailed in the books. Basically leaving room for DM discression or player actions in terms of how things went. IE kingmaker, you could build a brothel.

In addition, one thing I do have to note... saying it has the same restrictions as pathfinder modules then saying depictions of violence, references to sex etc... as imposible, isn't exactly the most accurate thing
Carnival of tears contains fairly notable mentions of a person killing a woman's husband then taking her, prostitution, and very extreme explicit violence, both in text and to some extent in the illustrations.

Sczarni

Will Cheliax not be an Option to play?

When running game at a Few tables with minors... With Cheliax missions it was always a bit akward trying to explan the room with out realy explaining the room :)

Goblinworks Executive Founder

Nihimon wrote:
chris szymanski wrote:
... then they put Armor set in the game that were linked to the God you worshiped...
Sometimes, you can't win for losing :)

I played an Iksar. I never got to the point where I was not KoS in EC.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
HalfOrc with a Hat of Disguise wrote:
And I'd argue that Seoni is borderline porn...
Really? I just browsed images of Seoni and I have to say I didn't get that impression at all. I can see how someone would call Red Sonja "borderline porn", but I'm really not getting it with Seoni...

Porn is not just about visual depiction, and even with the visual stuff there is "implied porn". And if your DM loves to supplement your Pathfinder sessions with his own art, well then...

But Seoni? Book of the Damned vol 2 (Lords of Chaos) has a succubus on the cover that makes Seoni look like a nun, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. Go deeper into the book and you find Lamashtu wearing nothing but a string bikini made of skulls and hints of beastiality, then Noticula, demon lord of assassins and lust with an even skimpier outfit squatting down in a very erotic pose and sucking her finger, and of course let's not forget about Vermlek on page 34: worm demons who love nothing more than to wriggle into a not so fresh grave for a little necrophilia.

Visually depicted or not, that is no PG 13.

Goblin Squad Member

A bit tricky depicting good ol' fashioned lust demons without straying into adult territory. A succubus wearing a business suit just doesn't make the same statement.

Silver Crusade

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Sadurian wrote:


A bit tricky depicting good ol' fashioned lust demons without straying into adult territory. A succubus wearing a business suit just doesn't make the same statement.

Annie Lennox-based succubi notwithstanding.

>_>

<_<

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

'Sweet dreams', indeed.


As long as PCs killing other PCs based on in-game race (species) isn't punished by GMs, then it's all good.

It's a mature sandbox MMO with a lot of lore behind it, I think any form of RP that isn't griefing is perfectly fine. I'm sure you'll find groups of PC Elves/Humans/Dwarves etc that will have such tendencies.

About NPC's flavor text: that's a good long-term polishing goal, not EE though. But I would like to see that put into the game.

Goblin Squad Member

1) I agree that complex NPC behavior/speech should be left for OE.
2) I believe that any enhancement that provides more interesting context for RPing is desirable.
3) Lore based antagonism between groups (species, social, economic, or national) is a valid RP context.
4) That being said, I believe that such behavior should be displayed as inappropriate by the actions of the players rather than a mechanic of the game.

Goblin Squad Member

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I really hope that this game has at least the level of content that I experienced in games as a teen. I remember in Neverwinter Nights (The one by Bioware) going into a brothel in the first city. The screen cut to black, and resumed with you standing there with all the important bits covered when you went in the back room but the implications were still there.

I remember having a collection of all the slaves I found on missions sitting in my hangar on EVE.

And I may not have played is as a teen, but I remember purifying the rum rations I was given in the Skull and Shackles campaign to avoid getting addicted to it.

Drugs, slaves, and brothels all belong in the Pathfinder setting, and therefore Pathfinder Online. I don't feel the need to see 15 gallons of blood go spraying everywhere every time I nick someone with a dagger, or even Mass Effect / Dragon Age style sex scenes that show everything but the important parts. In-fact I would rather not.

But I don't think we should use a "think of the children" argument to avoid any more serious topics at the expense of the integrity of the game world. Teens aren't 5 year olds, and they don't need to be wrapped in bubble wrap.

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