Jotungrup + reach weapons


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Ive got a question with regard to the Jotungrup ability under the Titan Mauler archetype.

Im looking at this to make a new character that I think can have an unique battlefield control ability.

My idea would be to get Jotungrip,use a 2handed reach weapon in one hand and a 2 handed non reach weapon in my other hand. For simplicity sake asumme a D12 reach weapon and a 2D6 greatsword. I think this is legal from what I read. Imagine I am dwarf wearing a dwarven boulder helmet. I go for a single dip into cleric with the growth domain.

What happens when I complete the whirlwind attach feat chain after I have used enlarge person the previous turn

What feats could could complement the build.

If it is not evident already, Im quite a noob at pathfinder


So the real question is given you are wielding a reach weapon in one hand (multiple ways to do this) and a normal (non-reach) weapon in the other hand, and you do a whirlwind attack, what happens?

The whirlwind feat itself is no help. It's wording does not make it clear that you may or may not attack interchangeably with any weapons you wield.

I am tending towards choose a single weapon and do all attacks with that, but I can see others allowing attacks with both weapons (and armor spikes) as long as each threatened opponent is only attacked once overall.


I hold with the interpretation that Whirlwind Attack is a single "sweep" of the weapon so it involves using a single weapon and you can't cherry-pick what you want to do vs individual targets (ie. no Attack>disarm>attack>trip>sunder>attack); you roll damage once and slather it over all enemies that your attack roll confirms a hit against. By that reading, what you're intending to do wouldn't work. However, you could just get a Whip with Whip Mastery and do they very same thing with a single weapon and even hit everyone out to 15' (20' if you use Lunge) with no "minimum reach limit" like with standard reach weapons. It's also a one-handed weapon by default so you don't even need to take the attack penalty from Jotungrip nor even take the archetype at all. Combine it with Enlarge Person (presuming you're a medium race like Human) and you can hit everyone out to 30' (35' if you use Lunge).


@ Kazaan: I dont want to play a whip master I want to play a Barbarian with huge weapons that has battle field control, threatening everybody that just thinks of moving. I thought Jotungrip is an easy way to grant me an a Polearm in one hand and a big weapon in the other as well.

Im not looking to find out a super optimised build either, the whirlwind tree would just be an icing on the cake but if it doesnt work I would look to some other feats.


Whirlwind Attack feat wrote:

Benefit: When you use the full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. You must make a separate attack roll against each opponent.

When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

Pretty clear: You roll attack and damage separately for each target as normal, the only thing whirlwind attack changes is instead of getting multiple attacks e.g. from iterative attacks etc, you get 1 attack against each opponent.

I tend to agree that it is only with a single weapon tho.


Be careful about whirlwind, I recently started a thread myself that devolved into a very heated discussion on this same subject (IE one attack vs several attacks).

However, the description says you give up any bonus/extra attacks, and I would tend to say your second attack (with TWF) would count as a bonus attack. The description of the extra attack of TWF pretty much says it's an extra attack (from d20pfsrd):

Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light.

And dont forget, even with TWF, if you have 2 massive weapons, you're going to have -4/-4. I would suggest either using a smaller weapon (with lunge, which adds 5 feat to reach) in your off hand.

Ultimately, pathfinder doesnt make it easy to look like a final fantasy character.


TWF only comes into play if you're leveraging the TWF penalties in order to attack above your BAB allowance of iterative attacks. IE. if you have BAB +6 (2 iteratives) and a weapon in each hand (for example, say a mace and a longsword), you could make both attacks with the mace, both with the longsword, or one with each and it is not counted as TWF; no penalties, neither is a "bonus" attack, and neither gets penalized on Str to damage. Only if you're specifically designating an off-hand weapon for the purpose of taking attack penalties and getting more than 2 iterative attacks does it become TWF. So your attacks from a weapon in your other hand aren't "extra" or "bonus" attacks.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I am not planning on TWF why would I, I am holding two weapons each with a different threat range. until I complete the whirlwind attack feat tree I will do one attack per round either at an enemy closeby or further away and I will get lots of targets of opportunity (assuming combat reflexes) for enemies closing in on me.

When I would complete the WWA feat tree,I am making the point that each opponent within reach is 2 circles wide instead of one circle, I attack with my highest bab a seperate attack that is not "sweeping", its quite the opposite, I have to roll individually each to hit and each damage...

1) can I do this,
2) if i do this do I incur massive penalties that can be offest by having a light weapon in the second hand and go for TWF, or is this irrelevant
3) if I cant do this could I at least choose and say I do it with the reach weapon or do it with the non reach weapon ie a whirlwind attach of one circle


@ Kazaan: any (normal) full attack action can only be done with a single weapon. The moment you get a second weapon in the mix, it counts as TWF. Which cant be done with whirlwind attack.

@ Wicky: As far as I can tell, you can not sweep with both weapons. As said before, a normal full attack is with a single weapon (1).

So you shouldnt incur any penalties, since you can only use the weapons one at a time (2). So you can easily choose which weapon you want

(3): You can definitly choose which weapon to whirlwind with (since you choose your full attack weapon anyway). If you want to expand you range, you can consider the lunge feat:

You can increase the reach of your melee attacks by 5 feet until the end of your turn by taking a –2 penalty to your AC until your next turn. You must decide to use this ability before any attacks are made (so unfortunately, you cant whirlwind 2 "circles" around you) Edit: I checked around, and what I put in parentheses isnt necessarily true. Some people say you can whirlwind multiple circles around you. So with lunge you might be able to hit at 5' and 10', and with a reach weapon at 10' and 15' (not at 5', because of the reach weapon)(NOTE: check with your DM. This is an often debated interpretation without any clear answer from paizo, so this enters DM choice territory)

While it doesnt allow you to hit more than one "circle" of enemies, it does allow you to be more flexible. I've made a build based on this, but whirlwind is an unfortunately limited ability. So cool though.


williamoak wrote:
@ Kazaan: any (normal) full attack action can only be done with a single weapon. The moment you get a second weapon in the mix, it counts as TWF. Which cant be done with whirlwind attack.

False: TWF FAQ clarifies that Two-Weapon Fighting is a specific mechanic that doesn't just come up because you happen to be making attacks with two different weapons. It only comes into play when you're using a second weapon for the express purpose of getting more attacks than your BAB iteratives would normally allow.

FAQ wrote:

Multiple Weapons, Extra Attacks, and Two-Weapon Fighting: If I have extra attacks from a high BAB, can I make attacks with different weapons and not incur a two-weapon fighting penalty?

Yes. Basically, you only incur TWF penalties if you are trying to get an extra attack per round.
Let's assume you're a 6th-level fighter (BAB +6/+1) holding a longsword in one hand and a light mace in the other. Your possible full attack combinations without using two-weapon fighting are:
(A) longsword at +6, longsword +1
(B) mace +6, mace +1
(C) longsword +6, mace +1
(D) mace +6, longsword +1
All of these combinations result in you making exactly two attacks, one at +6 and one at +1. You're not getting any extra attacks, therefore you're not using the two-weapon fighting rule, and therefore you're not taking any two-weapon fighting penalties.
If you have Quick Draw, you could even start the round wielding only one weapon, make your main attack with it, draw the second weapon as a free action after your first attack, and use that second weapon to make your iterative attack (an "iterative attack" is an informal term meaning "extra attacks you get from having a high BAB"). As long as you're properly using the BAB values for your iterative attacks, and as long as you're not exceeding the number of attacks per round granted by your BAB, you are not considered to be using two-weapon fighting, and therefore do not take any of the penalties for two-weapon fighting.
The two-weapon fighting option in the Core Rulebook specifically refers to getting an extra attack for using a second weapon in your offhand. In the above four examples, there is no extra attack, therefore you're not using two-weapon fighting.
Using the longsword/mace example, if you use two-weapon fighting you actually have fewer options than if you aren't. Your options are (ignoring the primary/off hand penalties):
(A') primary longsword at +6, primary longsword at +1, off hand mace at +6
(B') primary mace at +6, primary mace at +1, off hand longsword at +6
In other words, once you decide you're using two-weapon fighting to get that extra attack on your turn (which you have to decide before you take any attacks on your turn), that decision locks you in to the format of "my primary weapon gets my main attack and my iterative attack, and my off hand weapon only gets the extra attack, and I apply two-weapon fighting penalties."

—Sean K Reynolds, 11/04/11

Liberty's Edge

williamoak wrote:
@ Wicky: As far as I can tell, you can not sweep with both weapons. As said before, a normal full attack is with a single weapon (1).

Nope. SKR kinda boned that one.

link to the Faq


@ strange package: Well, I was not aware of that. I'm definitely wrong. Not sure whether that still counts for whirlwind attack since it's not a normal full attack), but eh... I dont feel like arguing about it. It would be pretty cool to whirlwind with 2 weapons.

So Wicky, just have some fun. With the combo of weapons you should be able to whirlwind pretty sweetly with lunge (either 5'+10' or 10'+15'). Talk to your DM about whirlwind attack, see how he understands it, and plan your build in consequence. Ultimately, it's the DMs choice, so work with them. I might have been rules lawyering earlier, and I really dont want to do that.


williamoak wrote:

@ Kazaan: any (normal) full attack action can only be done with a single weapon. The moment you get a second weapon in the mix, it counts as TWF. Which cant be done with whirlwind attack.

This is not correct.

If you are for example fighter level 6 with a bab of 6, and wield a Longsword in one hand and a Mace in the other. All 4 of these would be legal attacks NOT using TWF and not takign any penalties.

1) Longsword +6, Longsword +1
2) Mace +6, Mace +1
3) Longsword +6, Mace +1
4) Mace +6, Longsword +1

Now if you are using twf and improved twf you could get 4 attacks at penalties.

Edit: Ninjaed


You got ultra ninjaed Ughbash, even I had time to respond before you...


Well, if you had used the growth domain ability the PREVIOUS turn, it would have worn off by your next turn. The growth domain ability only lasts 1 turn, which is why it's a swift action to activate.

It's legal to use a reach weapon and a greatsword with jotungrip. It's not necessarily advisable though. Your attack penalties are horrendous. -8 / -8 and that's WITH the Two Weapon Fighting feat. Without it, you're looking at -10 / -14 to hit.

As to whether you can TWF with Whirlwind Attack... I defer to the rules experts. I would say the answer is "yes", but the TWF penalties still hurt a lot, and you only get one extra attack against one opponent, per the normal TWF rules.

For feats that could complement a theoretical build like this, you need all the attack bonus you can scrounge up, so Weapon Focus obviously. Greater Weapon Focus too, since you're going to be taking a bunch of fighter levels most likely. Lunge is another feat you're going to want, it's just so good with reach weapons and Whirlwind Attack.

Other things you'll want are the Reckless Abandon rage power, Big Game Hunter feat if it's allowed, and anything that improves your Strength score (thereby improving your to-hit). If your Charisma will support it, taking the Eldritch Heritage feat chain with either the Abyssal or Orc bloodlines will net you a +6 to strength eventually.

A level in Alchemist (Ragechemist archetype) will help, as well.


cool, thanks !


You can't TWF while making a Whirlwind Attack, but wielding a weapon in each hand isn't necessarily two-weapon fighting. If you had a Longspear in one hand and a Greatsword in the other via Jotungrip, and +6 BAB for 2 iteratives, you can attack one target at reach with the Longspear, and another target adjacent with the Greatsword and it is not two-weapon fighting; you take no attack penalties, there are no "extra" attacks, and neither weapon takes 1/2 Str to damage.

The question at hand is how much Whirlwind Attack counts as "making one melee attack". If it's make one separate attack vs each individual target you threaten, then you could attack all targets at 5' with the Greatsword and at 10' with the Longspear and it is not TWF so none of those are "extra attacks". If it's one attack that targets each enemy, then you're making one series of attacks with a single weapon at your disposal and, possibly, even rolling damage only once and applying it to all targets you make your attack roll against or, alternatively, choosing to replace that one attack with, say, Trip so that you are tripping all enemies that you hit (no cherry-picking trip this guy, disarm that one, bash that other one in the face). I, personally, hold with this last interpretation as I feel it carries the intent of the ability the best, but most people debate between the first method (attack with any weapons) and the basic second method (attack with one weapon, roll damage and apply maneuvers on individual basis). However, it's only one attack vs each target you threaten so even if you had a Greatsword and a Heavy Flail (going by the first method), you couldn't attack each target twice. However, you could, in this case, use the Sword vs targets with DR/S and the Flail against targets with DR/B.


@ nuclearsunburn: Im casting the enlarge person which is the first level domain spell, not activating the domain power.

@ Kazaan: the explanation actually specifies: You must make a separate attack roll against each opponent.

Quote "Benefit: When you use the full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. You must make a separate attack roll against each opponent"


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Yes, I know that. The point is that you're making "one melee attack". Even if each target gets their own attack roll, that doesn't inherently mean that each attack roll constitutes an individual attack. There are certain abilities (Dead Shot, Deadly Shuriken) in which you make multiple attack rolls against a single target which all amount together to a single damage roll; in this case, the more attack rolls you succeed at, the more bonus dice you add to your damage. This is just that concept extrapolated out to multiple enemies; you're making one sword swipe a la Link's Circle-Slash and deal a consistent amount of damage throughout the series of attacks (or, alternatively, a single sweeping maneuver vs everyone around you). To illustrate:

Say you have 5 targets around you:
A) 15 AC
B) 13 AC
C) 14 AC
D) 20 AC
E) 11 AC

You first roll attack individually:
A) 13 vs 15 AC (miss)
B) 20 vs 13 AC (hit)
C) 28 vs 14 AC (hit + crit)
D) 28 vs 20 AC (hit + crit)
E) 19 vs 11 AC (hit)

You missed target A, hit targets B and E, and confirmed crits against targets C and D. Now you roll damage:
2d6 + 10> 19 damage (+16 crit)
Apply 19 damage to targets B and E, and 35 damage to targets C and D. This is how it ought to work to properly convey the idea of a "whirlwind attack" making "one melee attack" that is spread like butter over the various types of biscuit you're fighting. It's quite a plausible interpretation of the rules, not inherently ruled out but the rules still carry a touch of ambiguity to them on the matter. I've prompted in the past that this should have a FAQ or Errata, but it never materialized.


I'm starting to think that you've got to throw logic out of the window. After all, the "attack" roll seems to combine both HOW HARD you hit (IE, you can add strength) and HOW ACCURATELY you hit (IE, wepon finesse and adding bab). Logically, it doesnt make sense that the guy with a bazillion strength should be able to hit someone in no armor with a +7 on dex as easily as someone rooted in one place wearing plate armor.

I guess it's inherent in the system; I mentally perceive armor as DR, and not as a factor making you "harder to hit". Same goes for strength adding to damage, but not necessarily to accuracy (in my mind at least). I imagine in the pre-DR days AC made sense, when you were not necessarily thinking about your guy dodging, or a guy taking no damage at all.

Dead shot and deadly shuriken also make no sense to me. Clustered shots (IE all attacks in one, identical spot) yes, but the power from all attacks invested in one?

If we think of whirlwind attack as from LOZ, I would tend to make it pure AOE; no roll for damage, just a reflex save for those around the whirlwinder not to get hit. And then multiple damage rolls (one for each dude hit).

In the end, we can only hope for an FAQ, because the rules will never quite resemble what we expect from the real world.

Oh, and I marked your post for FAQ kazaan, I'd really hope for one as well, I've seen to many threads discussing Whirlwind attack, Whirlwind+lunge, etc.


The idea behind using Str for your to-hit is that "hitting" isn't just about landing the weapon on them, but also landing the weapon on them "effectively". If you manage to nick them, or you hit them in the armor, even though you technically "made contact", it wasn't enough to warrant rolling for damage. Also, with big heavy weapons, Strength affects your capacity to lift it. It's easier for a strong person to swing a heavy weapon effectively than for a weak person and, at that point, having a high dexterity counts for little. In other words, with high strength, you carry the weapon with ease and are free to manipulate it as you please whereas with low strength, you're putting a lot of effort into just carrying and swinging it around so your attacks are going to be rather clumsy and inaccurate, even if you're particularly dexterous.

Regarding the reflex-driven AoE possibility for Whirlwind Attack, that would really be amazing, giving martials the capacity to reliably hit high-ac targets by having a physical damage attack that does an end-run around their AC and targeting their reflex save instead, though it inherently cuts out critical hits.


Avianfoo wrote:
Whirlwind Attack feat wrote:

Benefit: When you use the full-attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach. You must make a separate attack roll against each opponent.

When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.

Pretty clear: You roll attack and damage separately for each target as normal, the only thing whirlwind attack changes is instead of getting multiple attacks e.g. from iterative attacks etc, you get 1 attack against each opponent.

I tend to agree that it is only with a single weapon tho.

I disagree. There is no hint at you being limited to using the same weapon. It's rather clear that you are allowed to use seperate weapons because you have to make an attack roll against each opponents.

The general rule is that you can attack with any of your wielded weapons for each attack you have as you like. You do not need TWF or such for that.

I don't know the effects for Jotungrip, but wrt. whirlwind attack you can do this various weapons IMO :-)


Sangalor wrote:
It's rather clear that you are allowed to use seperate weapons because you have to make an attack roll against each opponents.

Non sequitor: Does not follow; needing to make separate attack rolls doesn't lead logically to being able to use different weapons.


Kazaan wrote:
Sangalor wrote:
It's rather clear that you are allowed to use seperate weapons because you have to make an attack roll against each opponents.
Non sequitor: Does not follow; needing to make separate attack rolls doesn't lead logically to being able to use different weapons.

Well at the very least the opposite is not true either ;-)

This is the way I interpret it.

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Non-obvious yummy treat in Cleric Plant[growth] domain:

Quote:
Enlarge (Su): As a swift action you can enlarge yourself for 1 round, as if you were the target of the enlarge person spell. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.

Enlarge lasts only until the beginning of your next turn. This effectively gives you an extra 5' step at the start of the next turn after you Enlarge. Tactically, this can give you full attacks with a reach weapon, while denying full attacks to your non-reach foes. Of course, it only works sometimes.

Here's how it works:

Your turn 1: You start your turn with Enlarge. You choose which 4 squares to expand into. You do stuff.

Enemy Turn 1: Because you threaten such an enormous area you will often get AoOs. You threaten a 50' diameter doughnut around your center of mass. A foe survives your AoO screen, closes well inside your minimum reach, and attacks. Awkward!

Your turn 2: Your turn begins with you shrinking back to Medium-sized. You choose which of your four large-sized squares your one-square self now occupies. Choose to occupy a square farthest from the foe, putting Medium-size you at ideal Medium-size reach range. Then you 5' step out to 15' distance. You can enlarge again and take your full attack Enlarged, or you can conserve uses by taking your full attack before you 5' step away. Your foe is likely too far away to full attack you back, and must give up more AoOs if it wants to close with you again.


Nothing in the spell states or suggests you change squares. You basically still occupy the same square as before and choose one square that is your "true" position.
It is a bit of a grey area, but I doubt that many would rule it your way. Getting additional non-provoking movement this way is too good for a 1st level spell equivalent, the spell is already very good.


Quote:
. . . make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.

This seems to me like each opponent gets its own attack. This is supported by the fact that you still make separate attack rolls. Granted, there are some abilities that use multiple attack rolls for single attacks (e.g., Dead Shot, double-barreled pistol), so it's a little ambiguous. But going by the spirit of the two-weapons-without-TWF ruling, and the fact that you can make an attack of opportunity with any ready and threatening weapon, I would conclude that the rules allow you to choose any weapon you have at the ready--including unarmed strikes and natural weapons--for each attack, so long as that weapon can reach the given target. Forgetting Jotungrip for a second, anybody should be able to pull this off with a scorpion whip and a short sword (proficiency aside).


There is another archetype from Spes Magna you might be interested in.

The Jotunkin, basically, turns you rage into an anger induced growth spurt. It is a huge boost at low levels

Liberty's Edge

Wicky1976 wrote:

Ive got a question with regard to the Jotungrup ability under the Titan Mauler archetype.

Im looking at this to make a new character that I think can have an unique battlefield control ability.

My idea would be to get Jotungrip,use a 2handed reach weapon in one hand and a 2 handed non reach weapon in my other hand. For simplicity sake asumme a D12 reach weapon and a 2D6 greatsword. I think this is legal from what I read. Imagine I am dwarf wearing a dwarven boulder helmet. I go for a single dip into cleric with the growth domain.

What happens when I complete the whirlwind attach feat chain after I have used enlarge person the previous turn

What feats could could complement the build.

If it is not evident already, Im quite a noob at pathfinder

Yes, you can do this. Each weapon will have a -2 to attacks.

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