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Rise of the Runelords Anniverary Edition Players Guide
lists Chelaxian as a language in the Varisian Languages text box on page 14.
But the inner sea world guide on page 13 lists the language of the Chellaxian race as "Common"?
And again on page 54, the languages for the region Cheliax are listed as "Common, Infernal"
Ok.. so is there a language named Chellaxian that is spoken in Chelliax or no? Which source is correct...
I think it was retconned out of existance. Its likelt a dialect of taldan now.
Rise of the Runelords Anniverary Edition Players Guide lists Chelaxian as a language in the Varisian Languages text box on page 14.
I think you're looking at the original 3.5 version of the RotRL Players Guide from 2007. (The one with the faux black leather cover with a Sihedron in the middle.)
The Anniversary Editon Players Guide doesn't have a section about languages at all.
Chelaxian was indeed retconned out of Golarion. There are a number of things in that guide and in the support articles of Pathfinder #1-6 that have been retconned.
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It is inferred in Dave Gross's "Queen of Thorns" that 'Chelaxian', while not a separate language from Taldane (Common), is recognizable as a dialect. Probably like British English, American English, Texas Drawl, Suh-thern' Ahng-lash, etc.Some languages are also mutually intelligible, like Danish-Norwegian-Swedish or Spanish-Catalan-Galician-Portuguese.
So Chelaxian might be a separate language, but anyone who speaks Taldane (Common) can still understand it and be understood.
Oh I love this one.
- So your language is basically like Russian and they're mutually intelligibllruuugghhlllllllwhy ... is ... that ... knife ... in ... my thhhhhhroa....?
- Because you dared to compare our language to Russian, and not the other way round.
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Polish and Russian? Aren't they both just dialects of Slovakian?
Oh I love this one.
- So your language is basically like Russian and they're mutually intelligibllruuugghhlllllllwhy ... is ... that ... knife ... in ... my thhhhhhroa....?
- Because you dared to compare our language to Russian, and not the other way round.
Poles about Slovak/Czech: Heh, it's like somebody would try to talk our language while high on helium and pot, oh and that person is being giggled, too.
Slovaks/Czechs about Polish: Heh, it's like somebody would try to talk our language while simultaneously trying to chew a mouthful of rocks.
Whereas Swedes and Norwegians think Danes talk like they've got their mouth and throat full of porridge.
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Rise of the Runelords Anniverary Edition Players Guide lists Chelaxian as a language in the Varisian Languages text box on page 14.I think you're looking at the original 3.5 version of the RotRL Players Guide from 2007. (The one with the faux black leather cover with a Sihedron in the middle.)
The Anniversary Editon Players Guide doesn't have a section about languages at all.
Chelaxian was indeed retconned out of Golarion. There are a number of things in that guide and in the support articles of Pathfinder #1-6 that have been retconned.
Thanks Haldar
Can you link to the new one though? I thougth I downloaded fresh from paizo this week and it still shows a languages callout on page 14. Watermark says sep 7, 2013. So there must be a totally *different* players guide.. eh?
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It's a bit tangential to the OP's question, but I for one hope that we'll someday get to find out a little more about the prehistory of Cheliax and Andoran. As far as I can tell, the published setting information about those countries in the period between the fall of the Jistka Imperium (which included part of Cheliax) and the Taldan conquest of the northern coast of the Inner Sea consists of just a few tantalizingly vague references scattered about in artifact backstories and the like.
We know that the debased civilization of Nidal has survived in something resembling its current incarnation since the Age of Darkness, and there were apparently Kellid tribes living as far south as Isger at one time, but the cultures and languages of ancient Cheliax and Andoran are largely a mystery, it seems.
Thanks [Haladir]Can you link to the new one though? I thougth I downloaded fresh from paizo this week and it still shows a languages callout on page 14. Watermark says sep 7, 2013. So there must be a totally *different* players guide.. eh?
The Anniversary Edition Player's Guide is a(nother) free download, available here. ;)
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Ok. I relent.. the *new* material is all in sync I guess.
There is no Chellaxian language.
They speak common.
They speak a dialect of common to which only (generally) chellaxians naturally get it. That concept is taken mostly from pathfinder tales, not from the campaign/setting supplements.
So.. I figure this dialect can help most people identify a natural born chellaxian from someone who is just pretending to be a chellaxian... and the opposite must also be true that it is harder for someone to impersonate a chellaxian who is not actually from there... but shouldn't prevent anyone from conversing with a chellaxian.
[nothing a reasonable disguise skill or someone with linguistics couldn't overcome... but it would take some skill or magic I would think]
My only complaint is that they didn't update the older document to REMOVE chellaxian.. its OGL and 3.5 compatible.. ok.. but there is no other source which suggests Chellaxian is a language.. it should be ammended. but then again, it is not worth the effort... they would be better off putting a big banner on the original rulelord player guide product page directing people to the NEW one.. and maybe even add it automatically to everyone's account who has the original in their downloads area.
But anyway, thanks for the information on the new document. All is right with the world once again.
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There was a printed version of the RotRL player's guide, so the PDF should match that.
Also while retcons are gonna happen, I disagree with actually editing them out of old PDFs. Sending stuff down the memory hole is a disservice to us all.
I actually did not know there was a chelixan language mentioned in RotRL. This however will be something that I do add and use. I am not a fan of 'common' yes common is taldane IG but still.
So to me Chelish and Taldane would be similar but different languages. Sort of how like some of the romance languages are similar to each other yet seperate languages.
Whereas Swedes and Norwegians think Danes talk like they've got their mouth and throat full of porridge.
I thought it was a potato in the back of our mouths. Oh well, I like porridge. ;-)
Same way that Dutch is like speaking German with a mouth full of popcorn. :-p
If there is no separate Chelaxian language, why are names for people and places so different between Taldor, Cheliax, and the rest of the countries that speak Common, like Ustalav for example?
That makes sense, but wouldn't that difference naturally lead to separation of languages?
Also, Ustalav was founded by Varisians. Soividia Ustav was a Varisian. 'Common' isn't necessarily as common in Rural Ustalav, where you have mostly ethnic Varisian's duking it out with the 'even more ethnic' Kellids they displaced...
Also, Ustalav was founded by Varisians. Soividia Ustav was a Varisian. 'Common' isn't necessarily as common in Rural Ustalav, where you have mostly ethnic Varisian's duking it out with the 'even more ethnic' Kellids they displaced...
It's not just Ustalav. I think in my campaign I'll have to treat Taldane like Polyglot: a bunch of related dialects that are mutually intelligible to a greater or lesser extent. And Common as a standard and perhaps simplified form used by traders and travelers. I'll assume that characters that know Common can adjust to a regional dialect after spending a few weeks in an area, or can speed it along with Gather Information or Linguistics checks. The Latin influence on Cheliax proper nouns and the Slavic influence on Ustalavan proper nouns really does suggest separate languages though.
One other thing: I'm using Tolkien's Khûzdûl as Dwarven in my campaign, which is pretty pure and isolated as a language. Names like Thorin and Balin, etc. were not Khûzdûl but rather borrowed from the human Dalish tongue because dwarves liked to keep their language secret. Golarion Dwarven proper nouns seem to alternate between a Nordic-Germanic influence (e.g. Harsk, Janderhoff) and a Tolkien Khûzdûl influence (e.g. Khadon, Taargadth, Saggorak). I'm tempted to attribute this to a Skald influence on Dwarven after they reached the surface and took a particular liking to this human language, incorporating Skald or pseudo-Skald names and vocabulary into the Dwarven of their time.
Creative Director
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That makes sense, but wouldn't that difference naturally lead to separation of languages?
In time, perhaps. But Cheliax spent most of its early years under the influence and controlled by Taldor. Today, Infernal is spoken quite a lot by those in charge, and if Thrune remains in charge for a lot longer, eventually their language will develop, I suppose. That's not a present issue though.
EDIT: More to the point... while it might be realistic to have lots of different languages, it also makes the game just harder to play since the whole concept of roleplaying requires shared languages among characters. Every additional language invented makes skill ranks spent to learn languages more spare and precious, and makes it more difficult to have conversations between characters. For a shared world in an RPG... there's a point where additional languages become clutter. I'm pretty sure Golarion's not there, but it's pretty close.
Look at it this way...
The United States was originally conquored and settled by the English starting about 400 years ago. After the success of the Revolutionary War in the late 1770s, the US became an independent state. We retained the language of our former Imperial overlords, ans still use it.
After almost 240 years, American English and British English are somewhat distinct in pronounciation, spelling, and their lexicons. However, the languages are close enough to be be the same language. When I'm in London, I have almost no trouble understanding what people are saying, and Londoners have almost no trouble understanding me.
(You can say pretty much the same thing regarding the French spoken in France and the French spoken in Canada.)
According to the Inner Sea World Guide, Imperial Taldor at its height included Andoran, Cheliax, Galt, Isger, Lastwall, Molthune, Nidal, and Nirmathas. (p.183) It really does make sense that the language of the old imperial power in the region is today's common tongue. In my game, I usually allow a Knowledge (local) or a Linguistics check to determine where someone's from his or her accent.
It's only been 650 years since the break-up of Imperial Taldor at its height. That's enough time for languages to diverge slightly, but not enough time for them to evolve into separate languages.
The existence of sending, teleportation, and similar magic may further slow down the diversification of languages simply through enhancing the ease of travel and communication across long distances.