Best defensive options (gear)?


Advice


Let me preface this by saying that I'm aware that there is a prevailing theory on these boards (and others) that tends to argue that offense is defense. It is theory craft that applies in many games and many circumstances, but it isn't anything I'm interested in hearing about here. The nature of the game that I play in, the people I play with, and the overall tone of the game is such that while offense is important, defensive options have increasingly become important. Resurrection magic’s are rare, enemies are often nebulous and unclear until they make a move, and I’m relatively attached to a long term PC.

Anyway, that said, I’m curious as to what people view as some of the best defensive items, especially the kind that are likely to be overlooked. The party just hit 15th level, and in the somewhat immediate future I should have something on the order of ~40-60k to spend in item purchases and crafting. This will mark by far the largest amount of cash on hand I've had to spend in the course of the game, and the first time in the last three years of play that I've had a chance to really customize magic item choices with crafting and purchases instead of relying heavily on items looted from enemies. I’m currently playing a 15th level arcane spellcaster (wizard).

There are a few house rules in place, the most important of which in this circumstance is likely the bundling of all crafting feats into a singe feat that only provides a 25% discount on crafting items – instead half price. What this means is generally I can craft anything, but it costs a bit more.

The following are my applicable defense stats:

Defense
AC 25, touch 21, flat-footed 20
(+4 mage armor, +5 deflection, +5 Dex, +1 monk)
hp 182 (1d8 + 14d6 + 104)
CMD 29
Resist endure elements
Special Defenses detect scrying, Evasion
Fort +12, Ref +13, Will +16

Applicable Items cloak of resistance +3, monk's belt, ring of evasion

My largest concern is the low saves – especially the fortitude save – though the relatively low armor class has also bit me in the ass on occasion. I’m particularly interested in passive defenses, but active means that can be used as swift or immediate actions aren't terrible despite what is a relatively high drain on my action economy at present. While active defenses like mirror image can be great against a single target, they fall flat against larger groups which the party fights with some frequency or when we are unable to buff before the encounter begins (also a frequent problem).

As an example of such, we’re in the process of cleaning up an encounter with ~50 or so martial attackers using javelins and blades, ~20 or so low level wizards using wands of magic missile and scorching ray (at caster level 9th and 7th respectively), ~15 assassins fighting under the cover of greater invisibility and mirror image, and one enemy wizard between level 11 and 14. In this encounter the party has been peppered with javelins for five or six rounds and tough enemy attack bonuses aren't great (probably somewhere in the +10-12 range) they’re sufficient to put on a lot of damage in the scene of things given the numbers deployed. While I don’t think there’s much hope of ever putting an AC out of range of high end attackers, it would be nice if I wasn't vulnerable to low end attrition.

My current thoughts on spending are as follows: Upgrading the cloak of resistance to +5, snagging an amulet of natural armor (probably +2), and maybe snagging a luckblade for the 1/day reroll and +1 bonus on saves that stacks with the cloak. I’m interested if anyone has other thoughts on the matter, or if there are any obvious options I’ve overlooked.

As it stands I've been using extended heroism spells to help make up some of the difference on saving throws, spamming shield spells to keep my AC a little more competitive, and leaning heavily on quickened mirror images.

I'm curious as to what other people have come up with. Thanks in advance for any suggestions.


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Peter Stewart wrote:
As it stands I've been using extended heroism spells to help make up some of the difference on saving throws, spamming shield spells to keep my AC a little more competitive, and leaning heavily on quickened mirror images.

You're at the level now where AC matters less than other forms of defense, and to be honest trying to keep your AC up to the same level as your tanks would be far too costly for the benefit, since ideally you won't be tanking.

The Quickened Mirror Images are a very good base. You might consider keeping Improved Invisibility or Mislead up as well. Sure, some foes will have blindsight, but many still will not, and that's one more layer of defense they have to defeat to target you.

I presume you have Fly ready at all times as well, since against foes unable to fly--melee brutes mostly--being out of reach is also a superb defense.


Lord Pendragon wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:
As it stands I've been using extended heroism spells to help make up some of the difference on saving throws, spamming shield spells to keep my AC a little more competitive, and leaning heavily on quickened mirror images.

You're at the level now where AC matters less than other forms of defense, and to be honest trying to keep your AC up to the same level as your tanks would be far too costly for the benefit, since ideally you won't be tanking.

The Quickened Mirror Images are a very good base. You might consider keeping Improved Invisibility or Mislead up as well. Sure, some foes will have blindsight, but many still will not, and that's one more layer of defense they have to defeat to target you.

I presume you have Fly ready at all times as well, since against foes unable to fly--melee brutes mostly--being out of reach is also a superb defense.

I appreciate the suggestions and the theorycrafting you are offering, but they aren't really what I'm looking for, nor are they things I've seen play out in my campaign over the course of approximately five years (two of which have been spent at level 14 or 15).

I have access to all day flight, and the reality of it I've discovered is that there are a great many circumstances in which it is completely non-applicable due to interior locations, low ceilings, hard points the party is trying to defend, enemies with potent ranged options, surprise attacks, and larger enemies with reach who can connect for the first round or so due size and reach, the attention that flight calls down on you from other foes, and the double movement cost for ascending. In some circumstances it can be an absolute defense - such as against lone animals - but in most it is at best a mitigating factor. More often than not it hasn't helped at all or even made things worse. Flying around the jungle invites attention from other forces in it, while flying around a city telegraphs my intentions to anyone watching and makes me an even clearer target. The last three or four times my PC has been seriously threatened flight was a complete non-factor.

Similarly, while I appreciate that invisibility can be a powerful tool, it has a lot of drawbacks. Means of defeating invisibility start at level 1 with a bag of flour and move onward and upward with glitterdust, see invisibility, true seeing, and so forth. This to say nothing of how I've seen even secondary melee characters dish out literally hundreds of damage against invisible opponents at this level in a single round - 50% miss chance is not much. Finally, the largest issue with greater invisibility in the context of a consistent kind of defense is that it requires a standard action to get up and lasts for only rounds. In circumstances in which I've got the initiative it can be a useful buff, but more often than not combat begins on terms we don't dictate. As such, it's not really an applicable defense in most circumstances.

While at one time I bought into the idea that armor class or other passive defenses weren't really important next to the active options available to a high level spellcaster years of play under the same DM have divested me of that notion, at least in the context of his games. The example cited above - against dozens of opponents armed with applicable ranged weapons (in this case javelins) - is just one of many in the course of the campaign in which a relatively low armor class has proven to be a liability. Again, I don't seek a fighter level AC, but a few more points to put it out of the reach of low level foes (which also has the pleasant side effect of saving mirror images from them for more important attackers) is something I'm interested in gaining.

With that in mind I'm asking again, are there any defensive magic items that anyone might suggest for the purpose of fortifying a caster's passive defenses? Especially things that may have come out in relatively new publications (especially Ultimate Equipment) that I might have overlooked which can assist?

Silver Crusade

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Peter Stewart wrote:
Applicable Items cloak of resistance +3, monk's belt, ring of evasion

So from what I see you are filling three slots with defensive items?

By far this is not a complete list. Also, you didn't mention what you have in your equipment slots. Further, a lot of defensive items are about preventing or shoring up different areas. Immunity to this here and that there can significantly add up to a very resilient character.

Do you have a familiar that can use magic items? One that can get you both buffed up with very effective action economy, leaving you available for other options is not exactly passive, but still great.

Look into weapon enchants that provide defensive qualities to accessorize your existing equipment. Get a buckler and enchant it. You still have your hands free to cast, and defensive enchantments are often great.

Anyway, I hope that gets you started. Good luck!


First do you have a con boosting item? I'm guessing yes because of the HP, but if not, it helps with the fort save, and the extra HP will be useful. Similarly, Dex items add to AC and reflex save.

Second, have you considered some long duration (1hr) defensive spells, even if you have to do custom spell research. Things like Defending Bone , an improved Mage Armor (say a 3ed level version - maybe use one of the oracle armor revelations as a basis). At your level these will combine especially well with a rod of lesser extend (3000 gp).

Third, surprise: Armor and shields are actually quite useful...

A mithril buckler +x is cheap and 0% ASF and 0 ACP, and some of the shield enhancements are quite nice (arrow deflection, fortification).

A haramaki is a 0% ASF, 0 ACP, and AC+1. It can be enchanted; at +3 it's better than your mage armour spell (or you could research a wizard version of magic vestment...).

Depending on what your DM will tolerate by way of item customization, the on command smoke that doesn't impair the users vision property of a Volcanic Shield would be exceedingly nice. In theory, at the higher end, you can make a Mithril Breastplate into Celestial Armor, with 0% ASF and 0 ACP. Some DMs call shennanigans and say Celestial Armor is already Mithril, so ask first. Some Discussion here

Grand Lodge

Also: Displacement. 50% miss in one spell. Adding the minor cloak of displacement to your current one isn't bad either.


pad300 wrote:
A haramaki is a 0% ASF, 0 ACP, and AC+1. It can be enchanted; at +3 it's better than your mage armour spell

Well, its just as good as mage armor, and it cost 8k, doesn't get better until the +4 Haramaki pops up. Alternatively wear a +1 haramaki with =2 in armor qualities and cast mage armor and get the best of both worlds.

I don't think anyone's mentioned the ring of protection or Dusty rose Prism Ioun Stone yet. I never go out without my clear spindle ioun stone in a wayfinder.

Silver Crusade

I too am playing a 14th level blaster wizard and yes I do have quickened mirror image and overland flight prepared. I agree with master pendragons comments, AC means nada, it' s all about tactics.

I have teamed up with the monk in my party to form a devastating combo i.e. he protects my squishy ass I buff him.

Also use your highest level SM to provide meat shields


ErrantPursuit wrote:
Peter Stewart wrote:
Applicable Items cloak of resistance +3, monk's belt, ring of evasion

So from what I see you are filling three slots with defensive items?

...

Thanks ErrantPursuit, this was actually exactly the sort of list I was looking for. There was a lot here I'd seen, but also a bunch of little things I hadn't noticed (buffering cap, jingasa of the fortunate soldier, stormlure). I appreciate all the leg work that went into this post.

As to some questions - the monk's belt functions as a monk's robe. It's sort of a 3.5 throwback - and I'm pretty sure it came out of a 3.5 adventure's treasure haul. Still, it functions as the Pathfinder item rather than the cheesy 3.5 version that let you add your wisdom to AC for 13,000gp.

I do have a familiar, but not one capable of using magic items (no thumbs). He instead serves as a sort of last resort meat shield, packing the bodyguard and in harms way feats. I've often considered swapping him out, but at this point he's been in the game for upwards of two years, and baring death such a thing isn't likely from an IC perspective, regardless of how valuable a thumb wielding familiar would be in terms of action economy.

As for item slots, that's actually one of the major game houserules - we don't limit PCs by item slots (generally). Instead they are limited by a total number of active magic items. Basically you can have up to 15 items active (the same number allowed by the normal item slot rules) but they can be broken up more or less as you please within reason. This means for instance that if you'd rather wear eight rings and skip on six other item slots you are free to do so. Full details are here (third post down) if you are curious. Basically it allows a level of visual customization for a character above the norm. As a general rule we can reslot items, though the Gm reserves the right to veto.

I do appreciate the value of building immunities and resistances instead of simple save bonuses - though that sort of thing goes back and forth in terms of value. My preference is building as high a save as is practical then to build out on immunities to things like poison or will saves, depending on which you're vulnerable to.

Kiinyan wrote:
Also: Displacement. 50% miss in one spell. Adding the minor cloak of displacement to your current one isn't bad either.

Cloak isn't a bad idea. I'm pretty sure we houseruled to say that it wasn't sufficient to provide complete immunity to sneak attacks though, which mitigates its usefulness a little bit. Certainly something to keep in mind for the long term though.

pad300 wrote:
A haramaki is a 0% ASF, 0 ACP, and AC+1. It can be enchanted; at +3 it's better than your mage armour spell

At +3 it's equal, while at +4 or better it is better. That's sort of a steep investment to snag a +1 armor bonus (16,000 or 12,000 if I craft it myself), but I'll definitely keep it in mind as a long term sort of thing.

MrSin wrote:
Well, its just as good as mage armor, and it cost 8k, doesn't get better until the +4 Haramaki pops up. Alternatively wear a +1 haramaki with =2 in armor qualities and cast mage armor and get the best of both worlds.

I wonder, does that actually work that way? I know with bracers of armor and mage armor only the one with the greater bonus applies, and that if the mage armor spell provides a larger armor bonus it suppresses all the qualities of the bracers (such as fortification). I'll have to poke around the FAQ. Not sure the GM would go for it in any case but it may be worth a shot in high threat areas.

MrSin wrote:
I don't think anyone's mentioned the ring of protection or Dusty rose Prism Ioun Stone yet. I never go out without my clear spindle ioun stone in a wayfinder.

I've already got a large deflection bonus through another means (+5 actually), but the dusty rose's +1 insight isn't a bad option for 5,000gp. I'd almost forgotten about it.

Tin Foil Yamakah wrote:

I too am playing a 14th level blaster wizard and yes I do have quickened mirror image and overland flight prepared. I agree with master pendragons comments, AC means nada, it' s all about tactics.

I have teamed up with the monk in my party to form a devastating combo i.e. he protects my squishy ass I buff him.

Also use your highest level SM to provide meat shields

While I appreciate the enthusiasm and your own experiences, this is sort of the equivalent of coming up to someone who is asking what the best flavor of ice cream is and responding that doughnuts are way better and that ice cream blows. Simply suggesting in the absence of knowledge that tactics are all it takes is pretty insulting.

I understand that your experiences may have pointed you in the direction of "AC means nothing". That's great, and I'm glad it has worked for you in your game. Many people feel the say way that you do. I do not. It hasn't in my game - and I've tried. Different games for different people I suppose. My GM is not your GM, and in my game a low AC is a liability. It attracts attacks from weak enemies that eat away at hit points, makes you a power attack target, and means that full attacks are all likely to connect on all attacks in a lethal away (this is an even larger problem with mythic allowing fighters to full attack more or less at will.

I've got the lowest AC in the party by 4 points, and those directly above me rocking the 29 AC are about to upgrade their own defenses measurably (probably to the effect of ~3-4 points). I'd love to break into the ~30 AC club with most of the other PCs and escape from taking a beating from mooks and drawing attacks from enemies during surprise rounds because I both appear to be and am the most vulnerable target.


Permanent See Invisibility, permanent Reduce Person. Ring of Freedom of movement and a good belt of Dexterity and Constitution.


basically just brainstorming here, not saying any of this is the best idea:

off topic, but ...
- the encounter you described, you could basically shut it down with protection from normal missles (2nd level spell that lasts an hour per level, why not have it on all the time), see invisibility (10 mins/level, so basically you can have it on all the time if you are expecting trouble -- or, you can just make it permanent), globe of invulnerability. Those are three pretty standard spells to have, just saying.
- Contingency is also a good defensive measure you can always have one of going (e.g. "Break Enchantment when I fail a save against an enchantment, transmutation, or curse.", "mirror image when somebody makes an attack roll against me and i don't have mirror image up" (or improved invisibility?), "teleport when somebody grapples me", maybe "teleport when i say 'lalapalooza'", "dispel magic when i am affected by (silence|a dispellable debuff|...)"... i don't know what the best one is, but you should have one up.)
- "protection from spells" (8th level spell) is quite good. stoneskin obviously. those run a little pricey but i think that a guy with a 30 intelligence isn't going to cheap out when it comes to protecting his own skin.
- my high-level wizard had loremaster and "secret of true stamina" in addition to great fortitude. (i also carried around a wish scroll for in case we got jumped and i needed to alter reality. just putting that out there. "man, i wish we had spent a couple of rounds buffing and then jumped these guys" - i never found out if that would work, but, for 5000gp i think the DM can cut you a break once in a while)
- moment of prescience, mind blank (just ideas, they last a long time so are basically like passive defenses. +15 on the surprise save is not bad!)
- resist energy
- being flying all the time is good, gets you out of a lot of trouble
- if you became a lich or something that would take care of most of your fort saves.
- resilient sphere is a decent emergency defensive measure sometimes, i usually have one memorized
- prying eyes lasts a long time, might be able to warn you about danger a little ahead of time
- i think most of the defenses of a wizard are that you did a lot of scrying and divination and stuff ahead of time and know what is going on. doesn't work all the time but i think it should work a lot of the time. (in this sense nondetection and detect scrying are important defensive spells)
- having a telepathic bond up is good for things like "everybody grab on, we're teleporting right now"
- haste gives you a little AC
- if you have a guy who can cast heroes' feast, it's not a bad idea to have one of those every morning before you head out ...

on topic...
- I agree with things like prioritizing cloak of minor displacement over AC. it will be useful even against the big guys (most of the time).
- dust of disappearance is useful for the time that you run into the guy who has true seeing on and sort of smirks at you while you're invisible.
- the robe of the archmage has armor bonuses right? i don't know if i would buy one, but that is the kind of thing you find on a bad guy.
- ring of counterspells is cheap and versatile. (feeblemind? finger of death? disintegrate? whatever you want).
- bracers of arrow deflection
- dex-boosting item, con-boosting item
- i guess you could enchant your bathrobe (or something) with +1 armor and fortification if you wanted to?
- i think permanent see invisibility and permanent arcane sight should be considered ("so, that guy over there has 30 combat buffs up, i think we should leave ...")
- brooch of shielding? not always that useful but i had one and it would have helped in the encounter you mentioned.
- maybe periapt of proof against poison or health
- i suppose at this level you could start considering inherent bonuses to dex/con, but, that isn't the most cost-effective thing
- maybe: necklace of adaptation (thinking about things like cloudkill)
- maybe: ring of energy resistance


The nice thing about the haramaki is that you can enchant it with defensive armor enchantments. Give it a +1 and then start stacking things on it other than armor. You'd still cast mage armor for your armor bonus (and the haramaki's armor wouldn't stack with that) but you'd get all the advantages of the armor enchantments, which would be the point.

For instance, I'd recommend Spell Storing. You could store a Displacement in it, which you could then bring up as an immediate action the instant you are hit with a melee attack. Not quite a passive defense, but very close to it. Other armor enchantments like Fortification, etc. would be fully passive.

Also, keeping Ablative Barrier up would give you some passive damage mitigation, and it's an hour/level spell so you could put it up at the start of your adventuring day and have it up all day. Again the armor bonus wouldn't stack with mage armor, but all its other benefits would still be in play.


Peter Stewart wrote:
I wonder, does that actually work that way? I know with bracers of armor and mage armor only the one with the greater bonus applies, and that if the mage armor spell provides a larger armor bonus it suppresses all the qualities of the bracers (such as fortification). I'll have to poke around the FAQ. Not sure the GM would go for it in any case but it may be worth a shot in high threat areas.

The bracers explicitly call out an exception. The bracers are also powered by mage armor itself, and the spell used to create an item usually doesn't stack with the spell itself.

Peter Stewart wrote:
I understand that your experiences may have pointed you in the direction of "AC means nothing". That's great, and I'm glad it has worked for you in your game. Many people feel the say way that you do. I do not. It hasn't in my game - and I've tried. Different games for different people I suppose.

AC mathematically isn't the best. You drop a ton of resources into it and your AC doesn't scale with your character, but with a ton of gold you dump into the magic item treadmill. Displacement is a constant 50% miss chance and mirror images are far more effective than AC is. All these things stack too, so no reason to turn them down.

The thing is the fighter shouldn't be able to reach, see, then hit a flying invisible wizard with mirror images, displacement, and a moderate AC, with something in front of him. Full BAB tends to hit against AC pretty often, so avoiding being hit altogether or finding alternative means to avoid the hit(or survive it!) are pretty important, and its why spells look pretty nice. That, and spells stack with your AC. Don't just think people are insulting you, its honest advice and it stacks with your AC so no reason to take it as such.


jerrys wrote:
- the encounter you described, you could basically shut it down with protection from normal missles (2nd level spell that lasts an hour per level, why not have it on all the time), see invisibility (10 mins/level, so basically you can have it on all the time if you are expecting trouble -- or, you can just make it permanent), globe of invulnerability. Those are three pretty standard spells to have, just saying.

Interestingly, we threw up both a globe of invulnerability and had both casters rocking see invisibility during the encounter. It was a big part of how we survived the onslaught of attacks – right up until the enemy wizard hit the globe with a dispel. They helped a great deal, but didn’t solve the problem. Protection from arrows also would have helped, but not fixed the problem of javelins, each of which was doing 12-16 damage. Not a bad spell to throw into the mix of buffs though for encounters we see coming.

jerrys wrote:
- Contingency is also a good defensive measure you can always have one of going (e.g. "Break Enchantment when I fail a save against an enchantment, transmutation, or curse.", "mirror image when somebody makes an attack roll against me and i don't have mirror image up" (or improved invisibility?), "teleport when somebody grapples me", maybe "teleport when i say 'lalapalooza'", "dispel magic when i am affected by (silence|a dispellable debuff|...)"... i don't know what the best one is, but you should have one up.)

Sure, the issue with contingency is that it’s a one off – it only works towards the end of one threat, and even then not absolutely. It can solve a single problem, but not every problem as some people suggest.

jerrys wrote:
- "protection from spells" (8th level spell) is quite good. stoneskin obviously. those run a little pricey but i think that a guy with a 30 intelligence isn't going to cheap out when it comes to protecting his own skin.

I don’t have access to 8th level spells yet, but I think you and I have different measures of what constitutes a good spell. Protection from spells has a short duration, expensive material component, and takes up an extremely high level slot. It’s not the worst spell, but highly circumstantial since it doesn’t stack with a cloak of resistance. I’m also curious as to how you’re rocking a 30 intelligence at 15th level…

jerrys wrote:
- my high-level wizard had loremaster and "secret of true stamina" in addition to great fortitude. (i also carried around a wish scroll for in case we got jumped and i needed to alter reality. just putting that out there. "man, i wish we had spent a couple of rounds buffing and then jumped these guys" - i never found out if that would work, but, for 5000gp i think the DM can cut you a break once in a while)

You mean ~30,000gp? Wishes are really expensive, and while I’ve kept a limited wish in reserve at this point a full wish would be pretty expensive.

jerrys wrote:
- moment of prescience, mind blank (just ideas, they last a long time so are basically like passive defenses. +15 on the surprise save is not bad!)

Both great spells but a bit out of my reach. Even when they are in reach they’re expensive in terms of opportunity cost for a long while because of the high level slots they occupy.

jerrys wrote:
- resist energy

Another useful spell that I’ve actually had up for the duration of our current combat.

jerrys wrote:
- being flying all the time is good, gets you out of a lot of trouble

This I don’t agree with at all. I’ve had access to all day flight in my game for approximately three years, and it’s never played out as a lifesaver, merely a convenience. As I noted above there are an awful lot of means of getting around flight both in a campaign world and in a simple encounter.

jerrys wrote:
- if you became a lich or something that would take care of most of your fort saves.

Probably not in the cards for my LG PC, but points for out of box thinking.

jerrys wrote:
- resilient sphere is a decent emergency defensive measure sometimes, i usually have one memorized

Indeed, but it carries with it al imitation – inside the sphere your ability to contribute is marginalized. It’s still a useful spell that I keep on hand and which has saved my bacon, but it is by no means a replacement for solid defenses.

jerrys wrote:
- prying eyes lasts a long time, might be able to warn you about danger a little ahead of time

Actually, no. That isn’t how the spell works. It provides no knowledge or warning until you recall the eyes, at which point they replay what they’ve seen.

jerrys wrote:
- i think most of the defenses of a wizard are that you did a lot of scrying and divination and stuff ahead of time and know what is going on. doesn't work all the time but i think it should work a lot of the time. (in this sense nondetection and detect scrying are important defensive spells)

Indeed, and you’ll note one on the sheet above. Nondetection is another buff I usually get from another PC who can cast it without the expensive component, and isn’t listed only because I don’t provide it and thus can’t count on it if he’s not around. Still, neither helps very much against more conventional attacks.

jerrys wrote:
- having a telepathic bond up is good for things like "everybody grab on, we're teleporting right now"

Indeed – it’s a habitual combat buff from the sorcerer.

jerrys wrote:
- haste gives you a little AC

Usually the first spell cast every combat – usually by the bard.

jerrys wrote:
- the robe of the archmage has armor bonuses right? i don't know if i would buy one, but that is the kind of thing you find on a bad guy.

It’s the kind of thing you can find on a bad guy but can’t use, because robes of the archmage are alignment locked.

jerrys wrote:

- i think permanent see invisibility and permanent arcane sight should be considered ("so, that guy over there has 30 combat buffs up, i think we should leave ...")

- brooch of shielding? not always that useful but i had one and it would have helped in the encounter you mentioned.

These are generally good ideas. Arcane sight carries an implicit drawback in NPC encounters, since it causes your eyes to glow, but see invisibility and a brooch of shielding are both on the agenda.

jerrys wrote:
- maybe: necklace of adaptation (thinking about things like cloudkill)

Another good option – while these haven’t featured as major problems to date I have no doubt this will come in handy in the long term.

Lord Pendragon wrote:

The nice thing about the haramaki is that you can enchant it with defensive armor enchantments. Give it a +1 and then start stacking things on it other than armor. You'd still cast mage armor for your armor bonus (and the haramaki's armor wouldn't stack with that) but you'd get all the advantages of the armor enchantments, which would be the point.

For instance, I'd recommend Spell Storing. You could store a Displacement in it, which you could then bring up as an immediate action the instant you are hit with a melee attack. Not quite a passive defense, but very close to it. Other armor enchantments like Fortification, etc. would be fully passive.

Like I said, I'll have to see how this one jives with the Gm. I don't know that he's going to be ok with just suddenly picking up a piece of rare eastern themed armor out of the blue towards this end, and further I'm not actually sure how this interacts with similar rules - such as with mage armor and bracers of armor - which explicitly don't work in this way. I'm going to poke around the FAQ a bit to see if there's a real answer though.

Lord Pendragon wrote:
Also, keeping Ablative Barrier up would give you some passive damage mitigation, and it's an hour/level spell so you could put it up at the start of your adventuring day and have it up all day. Again the armor bonus wouldn't stack with mage armor, but all its other benefits would still be in play.

I hadn't seen that one (probably because I haven't looked at Ultimate Combat much). Nice catch, between it and cushioning bands it should provide a fair bit of extra protection for a mild cost.

One thing that does strike me though with a lot of these suggestions is that they advocate for a tremendous investment in terms of spells per day devoted towards personal protection. Is this really how other people play the game? Keep eight or ten buffs of varying levels up at all time? and opening combat with lots of defensive stuff?


Peter Stewart wrote:
Protection from arrows also would have helped, but not fixed the problem of javelins, each of which was doing 12-16 damage. Not a bad spell to throw into the mix of buffs though for encounters we see coming.

Well, it would be better if they were doing 2-6, right? my point is, it lasts 15 hours. you don't have to see it coming. cast it every day after breakfast (preferably a hearty breakfast of heroes' feast), just on the off chance you run into a bunch of a*+&#*@s with nonmagical javelins. It'll probably never come up again, but all it costs you is a 2nd level slot that at this point you won't otherwise use anyway.

Peter Stewart wrote:
Sure, the issue with contingency is that it’s a one off – it only works towards the end of one threat, and even then not absolutely. It can solve a single problem, but not every problem as some people suggest.

Of course it's not going to win the whole game, but it might keep you alive for a round. in the worst case it's basically like a free spellcast that doesn't cost you any action. e.g. if you had a contingency and a moment of prescience up, you will probably avoid 2 very dangerous things, without spending any actions. If you live through the first 2 rounds of combat in pathfinder you are probably in pretty good shape.

(I am under the impression that the use case here is that you guys just got jumped and are trying to survive the encounter, then will go hide in your base while figuring out who the bad guy is and planning a deep strike on him. During which time you would put another contingency up. Maybe that is not how everybody's campaign runs, i don't know.)

Peter Stewart wrote:
Arcane sight carries an implicit drawback in NPC encounters, since it causes your eyes to glow,

eh, i think sandbagging doesn't really work at 15th level. I don't think anybody of note is going to not know you are extremely dangerous. I'd rather have the ability up. If it really bothers you you could probably come up with some kind of illusion to make you look like a normal nerd again.

Quote:
It provides no knowledge or warning until you recall the eyes...

but, you could instruct them "If you see Baron Klaus, a dangerous monster, or a group of armed men approaching come and warn me." Again, it's not going to be relevant in every case, but it lasts an hour per level, you can cast it every day after breakfast, and once in a while it will save your butt.

Quote:
... all day flight...

well for instance, if you are 150' up then the javelin guys are at -8 to hit you, and you are still inside medium range. If they happened to be greatsword guys you could be 20' up and inside close range. Again, not an "i win button", but it helps sometimes.

Quote:
...You mean ~30,000gp?...

ah, you're probably right. I guess we found the scroll as "loot" and i just hung onto it for this purpose instead of using it for anything else. (my wizard was an over-the-top control freak.)

Quote:
...Protection from spells...

It's not that short... a couple of hours. If you know you are going to run into bad guys you can put it up and it will very likely last. Yeah, i don't know. Not for everybody. But if you don't want to fail a save... again, my guy was a control freak. I remember one time the DM hit me with some spell, and was like "DC 21 save" ... i was like, "ha, that's lower than my bonus!"


Peter Stewart wrote:
One thing that does strike me though with a lot of these suggestions is that they advocate for a tremendous investment in terms of spells per day devoted towards personal protection. Is this really how other people play the game? Keep eight or ten buffs of varying levels up at all time? and opening combat with lots of defensive stuff?

I can only speak for myself in this regard, and the answer is no. I keep up as many long-term buffs (hr/level or 10min/level) as possible, then usually one defensive buff at the start of each encounter. If the encounter runs long, then I might cast another depending on how threatened I'm feeling, but usually by mid-levels round/level is enough to last even tougher fights.

I think part of the reason it might seem this way based on this thread is because you're asking for defenses, so people are throwing every defensive idea/strat they can at you, not that they actually use all of them simultaneously. :)


I would agree with Lord Pendragon. I tended to keep quite a few buffs of the hour/level variety going whenever possible plus a few short term buffs to be cast right before combat assuming that was possible. If not I rarely cast more than 2 buffs during combat (and I'd say if I did cast more than 1 or 2 it was from absolute necessity and likely using Quicken as well).

Around 15th to 17th my Loremaster had Detect Scrying, See Invisibility (permanent), Darkvision, Nondetection, Telepathic Bond (permanent) and Overland Flight running 24-7 (via Extend) whether sleeping at home or on an adventure. I always had a Contingency and frequently had Moment of Prescience (unless something in home rules prevents you should have access to this spell at 15th level). I would often have Moment over Mind Blank relying on my Will save and Detect Scrying to deal with most of the stuff Mind Blank would. I used Wands often for those quick buffs before a fight and using Quickened versions as memorized spells for if and when we got jumped. Likewise I mixed in Staffs when I could for offense.

From early on Shield, Blur, Resist, Displacement, Greater Invisibility formed I guess what you could call my basic personal defense spells. As I got higher level then others started getting mixed in >> Stoneskin, True Seeing, Arcane Sight/Greater Arcane Sight. For some odd reason I never much used Mirror Image and the campaign never really forced me to investigate further defenses. Probably in part because if the foe(s) could be messed with by Images then Displacement probably messed with them badly enough already. If the foes easily defeated Displacement they likely beat Images just as readily.

I usually focused on items that helped my Fort then Will then Reflex saves in that order whether directly or indirectly. I figured the Fort and Will are the ones that will incapacitate me in one shot while Reflex just hurts.

Quote:
My current thoughts on spending are as follows: Upgrading the cloak of resistance to +5, snagging an amulet of natural armor (probably +2), and maybe snagging a luckblade for the 1/day reroll and +1 bonus on saves that stacks with the cloak. I’m interested if anyone has other thoughts on the matter, or if there are any obvious options I’ve overlooked

Sounds like a solid plan. I don't see anything obviously missing. A weapon with the Defending property might be worth looking into. The only drawback is needing to state the amount used towards AC each turn albeit it is a free action that still might be problematic depending how your GM rules it.


You've got a lot of good advice so far. Here's what I can come up with beyond what's already been said.

Benevolent Armor - I'm not sure how you got a familiar with the Bodyguard feat, but you might want to consider putting +3 or +4 Benevolent armor on him as be a cheap way to boost your AC by 3 or 4 against big foes. It can be padded armor or a mithril chain shirt if you want. It is just the enhancement bonus which matters.

Spell Storing - As mentioned in previous posts, there are few types of armor without Arcane Spell Failure problems now. Enchant one of them as +1 Spell Storing and store the Frigid Touch spell in it. If somebody hits you release the spell and it will make the enemy staggered and unable to full attack.

@Kayerloth - I believe there's a FAQ stating that you need to attack with a Defending weapon to gain the AC bonus. If the OP is running a caster that might not come into play too often (then again, maybe it does)


Change into earth elemental form and hide in the floor?


Lots of 2nd level pearls of power to keep the mirror images up.

Lesser rod's of maximize spell for vampiric touch (via spectral hand) for 30 hit points back to you. You could always intensify it for 42 hp's.

If you have a high UMD you could cast swarm skin, via scroll, to ignore all damage.


Devilkiller wrote:
... @Kayerloth - I believe there's a FAQ stating that you need to attack with a Defending weapon to gain the AC bonus. If the OP is running a caster that might not come into play too often (then again, maybe it does)

Wouldn't be the least bit surprised. In any case juggling a weapon plus a wand or staff plus still having a hand free to cast might prove difficult and at minimum I suspect you do have to have it in hand/wielded (i.e. be able to threaten anyone approaching) to be used for an AC buff. But I thought I'd toss it into the fray of options.

I got the feeling at one point while reading the thread that his party often finds themselves not doing the surprising but the other way around. This sounds like something to work on. In that vein more divination or items to ward against that might be useful such as a Rod of Alertness (pricey) or Rod of Enemy Detection. Spells like Prying Eyes/Greater Prying Eyes or Arcane Eye can be useful for scouting or to keep an eye on a lone companion scout so they don't just 'disappear'. Status while not an arcane spell can also be useful to keep an eye on everyone particularly in situations of limited visibility whether that's fog, precipitation or just a lot of alleyways, corners etc. like in a busy marketplace. Status might make a good wand choice for its utility. Note that while "harmless" nothing prevents one from using Status on foes either. Likewise you could place Arcane Eye (or Clairaudience/Clairvoyance) on a wand but its level makes it less ideal (i.e. costly) to do so. A Staff of Divination has among other things Prying Eyes available. Again cost is an issue, but perhaps just a custom Staff of Prying Eyes?

In general any character I have, defensively speaking, is going to look for (beyond AC and increased saves):
- A way to deal with Grapple and other combat maneuvers.
- A way to deal with death attacks, energy drain and all those undead special attack types
- Ways to deal with AoE (and environmental damage to a lesser degree).
- A way to continue to function outside of normal environments.

So things such as: Ring of Freedom of Movement, Ring of Evasion (you have), Ring(s) of Energy Resistance, Pearl of the Sirines, Scarab of Protection, Necklace of Adaptation, Items granting Flight/Flying, Goggles of the Night, Robe of Eyes come to mind as things my various higher level characters have possessed to deal with the above.


Wall of text incoming

I was reluctant to do this, because I'm sure it will lead to tons of playstyle bashing and comments about optimization, but here is the full PC character sheet for those curious. Before anyone comments stat boosting items (e.g. +4 intelligence, ect) are not generally available in the game world.

Current spending plans
-Permanent see invisibility
-Upgrade to cloak of resistance
-amulet of natural armor
-luckblade (maybe)
-brooch of shielding

Kayerloth wrote:
Wouldn't be the least bit surprised. In any case juggling a weapon plus a wand or staff plus still having a hand free to cast might prove difficult and at minimum I suspect you do have to have it in hand/wielded (i.e. be able to threaten anyone approaching) to be used for an AC buff. But I thought I'd toss it into the fray of options.

Free hand for casting is certainly a concern. I'm often juggling wands, staves, and other items for the party since I frequently serve as the primary dispenser of divine related things in the form of wands (death ward, restoration, healing). Adding something else into that mix isn't ideal. The situation is actually likely to get worse in the immediate future, with a held item that increases caster level.

Kayerloth wrote:
I got the feeling at one point while reading the thread that his party often finds themselves not doing the surprising but the other way around. This sounds like something to work on. In that vein more divination or items to ward against that might be useful such as a Rod of Alertness (pricey) or Rod of Enemy Detection. Spells like Prying Eyes/Greater Prying Eyes or Arcane Eye can be useful for scouting or to keep an eye on a lone companion scout so they don't just 'disappear'. Status while not an arcane spell can also be useful to keep an eye on everyone particularly in situations of limited visibility whether that's fog, precipitation or just a lot of alleyways, corners etc. like in a busy marketplace. Status might make a good wand choice for its utility. Note that while "harmless" nothing prevents one from using Status on foes either. Likewise you could place Arcane Eye (or Clairaudience/Clairvoyance) on a wand but its level makes it less ideal (i.e. costly) to do so. A Staff of Divination has among other things Prying Eyes available. Again cost is an issue, but perhaps just a custom Staff of Prying Eyes?

Some useful advice in here. There are a fair number of encounters that something like this would have helped in significantly. Even something as basic as clairvoyance would have been a tremendous boon in a couple of recent circumstances. In other circumstances, less so - a couple examples from the last year:

-Assassin takes a shot at a PC (my PC) from atop a rooftop using a ton of means to jack up his stealth check. Save vs. death and poison.
-Asassins hidden by conventional means in a room open combat with a volly of crossbow bolts as soon as the party is all in the room. Save vs. death and poison.
-Assassins hidden in a crowd take pot shots at the party when they meet with a public figure.
-Killers attack tavern party is in - crowded with noncombatants. They pour in through three doors and begin killing NPCs and attacking PCs.
-In deep woods attackers snipe at the party as they move forward, heavily impeded by terrain (and without a cleric for FoM).

The other, more common, scenario for the party is dialogue before conflict, or having the jump on a group but not knowing how overtly hostile they are or not wanting to kill them. Rarely does the party just leap into killing people, even when we have the drop on people. Even if we get the chance to combat buff often times it's a risky thing, since if we end up talking we have a clock running on shorter buffs. Examples from the last year:

-Warduke approaches a mansion the party has just wrecked in the context of killing off a band of rapists, murderers, and thieves. (GM actually said after the fact that he hadn't ever imagined the party would fight him).
-Powerful mage in a mage's guild waits at the top of a flight of stairs. a civil war is ongoing in the guild, with some hostile to the party and others friendly. His position is unknown.
-Powerful but misguided mage in the above group is threatening the party, believing them to be cultists. We are attempting to avoid a fight.
-Deathknight is possessing the body of a friendly NPC paladin. We choose to talk before initiating conflict in the hopes of saving the NPC ally.
-Powerful undead the party previously had a truce of sorts with approachs the party as they stand victorious over an abomination from the far realms. Intent unknown.
-Fey and elven survivors of a murderous plot are taking pot shots at the party in the deep jungle as we attempt to move around. The party wants to talk them down rather than fight or kill them.

This sort of stuff is kind of a theme of the game of sorts: gray areas where the party's morality can guide it one way or another. In every case we could potentially struck first, but in most cases that would have ended in disaster. We would have understood a circumstance poorly, faced death, killed off allies, and more. Basically what I'm getting at is that the old "prebuff up and kill em on sight" approach isn't one we often use - and with good reason.

Kayerloth wrote:

In general any character I have, defensively speaking, is going to look for (beyond AC and increased saves):

- A way to deal with Grapple and other combat maneuvers.
- A way to deal with death attacks, energy drain and all those undead special attack types
- Ways to deal with AoE (and environmental damage to a lesser degree).
- A way to continue to function outside of normal environments.

Beyond AC / Saves, the bolded one is the only one I'm worried about (more later). I don't know of a good means of defeating negative level / energy draining attacks passively. When I know they are coming I can waste an action on a wand of death ward, but if there is a better passive defense for them than a scarab of protection (with high cost and limited uses) I'd be eager to hear about it. It's somewhat rare for the party to have easy access to restoration and similar divine magics, so avoiding taking this kind of damage is rather important.

Kayerloth wrote:
So things such as: Ring of Freedom of Movement, Ring of Evasion (you have), Ring(s) of Energy Resistance, Pearl of the Sirines, Scarab of Protection, Necklace of Adaptation, Items granting Flight/Flying, Goggles of the Night, Robe of Eyes come to mind as things my various higher level characters have possessed to deal with the above.

I've got a ring of evasion, pearl of the sirines, flight, darkvision, a very high perception mod, and so forth. Energy resistance is rarely a problem at this point - at least not enough to devote a lot of money towards marginal resistance. Necklace of adaptation is likely not in the cards given the pearl - though it has fringe benefits. Scarab I hate to invest in because it costs so much and burns out so quickly. If there was a more renewable option I'd love to hear about it.

More items that fit into this kind of category (along with AC / Save boosters that I might have missed) are awesome and exactly what I'm looking for.

Lightbulb wrote:
Change into earth elemental form and hide in the floor?

Not helpful.

stuart haffenden wrote:
Lots of 2nd level pearls of power to keep the mirror images up.

I've got plenty of 2nd level slots. I'm not looking for spell suggestions - I want passive defenses that don't require that I spend my actions trying to keep up my defenses. Thanks though.

stuart haffenden wrote:
Lesser rod's of maximize spell for vampiric touch (via spectral hand) for 30 hit points back to you. You could always intensify it for 42 hp's.

If only 30 damage was meaningful. Brutes this party throws down with frequently dish out hits in the 60-70 point range. This wouldn't be a drop in the bucket.

Devilkiller wrote:
Spell Storing - As mentioned in previous posts, there are few types of armor without Arcane Spell Failure problems now. Enchant one of them as +1 Spell Storing and store the Frigid Touch spell in it. If somebody hits you release the spell and it will make the enemy staggered and unable to full attack.

This is the sort of cheesy I'd feel bad about normally - but after the GM butchered us with that spell in our itemless 20+ encounter day I'll consider it. I'd need to find an armor type that was light and not eastern though.

Devilkiller wrote:
@Kayerloth - I believe there's a FAQ stating that you need to attack with a Defending weapon to gain the AC bonus. If the OP is running a caster that might not come into play too often (then again, maybe it does)

Indeed.

Lord Pendragon wrote:
I think part of the reason it might seem this way based on this thread is because you're asking for defenses, so people are throwing every defensive idea/strat they can at you, not that they actually use all of them simultaneously. :)

But I just asked for item suggestions. I don't know how much clearer I could have been

Devilkiller wrote:
Spell Storing - As mentioned in previous posts, there are few types of armor without Arcane Spell Failure problems now. Enchant one of them as +1 Spell Storing and store the Frigid Touch spell in it. If somebody hits you release the spell and it will make the enemy staggered and unable to full attack.

This is the sort of cheesy I'd feel bad about normally - but after the GM butchered us with that spell in our itemless ~17 encounter day I'll consider it. I'd need to find an armor type that was light and not eastern though.

Devilkiller wrote:
@Kayerloth - I believe there's a FAQ stating that you need to attack with a Defending weapon to gain the AC bonus. If the OP is running a caster that might not come into play too often (then again, maybe it does)

Indeed.

jerrys wrote:
Well, it would be better if they were doing 2-6, right? my point is, it lasts 15 hours. you don't have to see it coming. cast it every day after breakfast (preferably a hearty breakfast of heroes' feast), just on the off chance you run into a bunch of a~!$@#&s with nonmagical javelins. It'll probably never come up again, but all it costs you is a 2nd level slot that at this point you won't otherwise use anyway.

Yes, it would be better. Amusingly I discovered I actually had this spell prepared and had meant to cast it, though I lost track of it during other events. My bad for not casting it earlier though. Between it and ablative barrier I think that pretty much rounds out my defenses for the day in terms of spellcasting.

jerrys wrote:
I am under the impression that the use case here is that you guys just got jumped and are trying to survive the encounter, then will go hide in your base while figuring out who the bad guy is and planning a deep strike on him. During which time you would put another contingency up. Maybe that is not how everybody's campaign runs, i don't know.

Actually, this isn't how we play at all. Typically combats ensue at points where the party is trying to achieve or prevent something. Either we've got allies we don't want to abandon, goals that are time sensitive, or are otherwise disinclined to flee. Rarely are we in a circumstance that we can just say "screw this" and bug out to regroup later. That isn't to say it never happens, but is to say that we are very much the opposite of the 15 minute work day style of play. We spent almost a year playing out a single day IC that involved 20+ encounters.

jerrys wrote:
well for instance, if you are 150' up then the javelin guys are at -8 to hit you, and you are still inside medium range. If they happened to be greatsword guys you could be 20' up and inside close range. Again, not an "i win button", but it helps sometimes.

Again, while I appreciate the suggestion I'm beginning to feel like a broken record here. Flight in my campaign has never panned out in the way that some assume it will. Many fights take place indoors with low ceilings. Many fights take place in areas that limit mobility (such as dense jungle). Many fights take place in circumstances in which flying away and raining destruction isn't an option - either because foes will flee, allies will be put in danger, objectives will be failed, or some such. The net result is that I have never seen flight as a viable means of avoiding all danger play out. Period. I don't suspect I ever will. Please stop suggesting simply flying away / out of reach.

jerrys wrote:
eh, i think sandbagging doesn't really work at 15th level. I don't think anybody of note is going to not know you are extremely dangerous. I'd rather have the ability up. If it really bothers you you could probably come up with some kind of illusion to make you look like a normal nerd again.

This is a very long running campaign where each of the players (myself included) is more interested in maintaining character continuity than in maximizing overall power and efficiency. We attempt to play characters as three dimensional as possible - with goals, friendships, commitments, relationships, and so forth driving them. That means, among other things, that interactions with NPCs are very important. My PC has long established goals that require extensive community interaction that I would rather not be colored by glowing blue eyes at all times. I appreciate the suggestion, but permanent arcane sight probably isn't in the cards at this time.

jerrys wrote:
but, you could instruct them "If you see Baron Klaus, a dangerous monster, or a group of armed men approaching come and warn me." Again, it's not going to be relevant in every case, but it lasts an hour per level, you can cast it every day after breakfast, and once in a while it will save your butt.

That's actually a pretty clever use of the spell I'd never thought of. Not super applicable as a defense, but defiantly something I'll keep in mind. Usually I'd kind of pictured prying eyes as a 'get a lay of the land' sort of spell.


Rod of extend metamagic (lesser or regular) would let you have hour/level buffs last all day and six hours into the next day,which might be handy, and 10 min/level buffs last five hours instead of 2.5 hours.

A darkskull is very expensive (40k gold) but lets you walk around with an unhallow spell and presumably its attached buff going. See if your GM will let you craft a good version of that (holy relic, banner, whatever).

Dex boosting items will increase AC, reflex saves, and most importantly your initiative.
You could tie that in with your Con boosting belt, though given the prevalence of poison it might be better to further boost your Con item to increase your hit points and Fort save.


Spells:

Stoneskin (10 minutes per level, 250gp component) will save you 10 damage per attack. Those assassin bolts have to hit for 11 damage prior to having to make your save vs. Death rather than 1 damage. Stack this with Ablative Barrier to prevent 15 lethal damage per attack.

False Life (1 hour per level) gives you 1d10+10 temp hitpoints per casting.

Items:

26,000gp - +5 Mithril Buckler (+6 shield bonus AC)
16,000gp - upgrade cloak of resistance +3 to +5
18,000gp - +3 Amulet of Natural Armor (+3 natural armor bonus AC)

That will give you +2 to all saves, +8 AC passively, 11+ hitpoints per encounter, and lots of weapon damage resistance.

Wand/Rod/Party Caddy (for fun):

Cast Floating Disc (1 hour / level).

Cast Unseen Servant (10 minutes / level). Have it pick up all the wands, rods, etc. that you drop on the ground and place them on the Floating Disc. Have it typically stay 5 feet from you. Never worry about having a free hand again. Name your servant "Charlie" and always refer to it in the third person.

If an enemy ever targets a dispel magic at either of these two spells, chuckle a little, wink at it, and be happy the enemy didn't target something important!


Buckler isn't particularly attractive to me since use of that hand costs you the bonus. Thanks for the suggestion though?

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