Glibness


Pathfinder Adventure Card Game General Discussion


Picked up this spell on Lem, which is fantastic. It raises a few questions in terms of timing.

The spell gives a +3 bonus to Charisma checks for the rest of the turn. The question is how this interacts with other spells. Now, you can't play more than one spell on one check, so if you encounter a monster, you can't use Glibness and then use Force Missile. But what if you've already used Glibness? Some use cases, and how I'm interpreting them:

1. I encounter an Ogre. I cannot use Glibness and then Force Missile to cast Force Missile with a +3 bonus. This violates the rule preventing me from playing two spells on the same check.

2. I encounter an Ogre. I use Force Missile to try to defeat him, and succeed. I then use Glibness to make my Recharge attempt easier. I get a +3 bonus on my Force Missile recharge, then a +3 bonus on my Glibness recharge. Since I still have a +3 bonus on recharges, I go ahead and use a Cure spell while I'm at it, and recharge that with a bonus as well.

3. I use a Cure spell. For my Cure recharge, I use Glibness and gain the +3 bonus on the recharge for both spells. Then, on the same turn, I encounter an Ogre. I use Force Missile to fight it. I still have the effects from Glibness, so I gain a +3 bonus on my Force Missile attack. This might be questionable, but my interpretation is that I didn't play Glibness on this check - I just still have the bonus from a previous play.

4. So if #3 is correct, then how about this? I encounter an Ogre. I decide to play Glibness immediately, before any checks occur. I play and recharge at +3. Then, I use Force Missile to combat the Ogre, gaining the +3 bonus from Glibness, which was played prior to this check.


I'd love to hear a ruling on this! So far, it just seems like there are really no real "timing" rules for this game. It doesn't seem like you could "respond" to pulling an ogre with playing Glibness and then doing your force missiles.

I never thought of using it to help Lem recharge is cards easier though! that's kinda genius. I just started using Lem last night and have to say that he's my favorite character thus far.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Remember, the rule is that you can only use one spell per check. All the recharge checks are all separate checks, so there is no conflict. So the only check in your example that might be questionable, would be using the Force Missile on a combat check that is also being enhanced by the Glibness. Though, you can't use CHA as a combat check without using the Force Missile. I would say that both examples [casting it before the Force Missile or after] would be in violation, because that is still using two spells to modify the check.

So basically, you can't use it with Force Missile or any other spell that makes a CHA combat check.

Mind you have you a similar issue with the Strength spell that adds +3 to all STR checks.


I think #3 works. #2 is questionable, and #4 does not. It think as soon as you encounter the oger you are in the check. You can play glibness but that would be the only spell you could play for the check, i think you should be able to play it after the check with the oger, when you try to recharge your attack spell, since it is the start of a new check, and then you could play cure with the bonus too. The best option is playing as stated in #3 but you do not know the oger is coming. But with some location deck scrying, you could set it up to use Glibness at the most optimal time.


TClifford wrote:
Mind you have you a similar issue with the Strength spell that adds +3 to all STR checks.

Strength doesn't get you into any real stickiness though, because 95% of the things you'll play "as your check" for a STR enchantment are weapons. There's zero question about being able to cast Strength and then use a weapon.

In DnD lore, there's no reason why you couldn't cast Strength on yourself, and then Fiery Weapon, and then go on a killing spree with your Longsword of Poot Noodeling.

I'm willing to bet this will be errattaed eventually.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

DrSnooze wrote:
1. I encounter an Ogre. I cannot use Glibness and then Force Missile to cast Force Missile with a +3 bonus. This violates the rule preventing me from playing two spells on the same check.

While that is true, there's another reason it doesn't work: during each step of a check, you may only perform the specified actions. The first time you can play a card during the check is when you're determining the die you're using—that's when you must play your Force Missile. A couple of steps later, you can play cards that affect checks, but not now.

DrSnooze wrote:
2. I encounter an Ogre. I use Force Missile to try to defeat him, and succeed. I then use Glibness to make my Recharge attempt easier. I get a +3 bonus on my Force Missile recharge, then a +3 bonus on my Glibness recharge. Since I still have a +3 bonus on recharges, I go ahead and use a Cure spell while I'm at it, and recharge that with a bonus as well.

Nope—you don't recharge that Force Missile at the end of the check, you recharge it immediately after playing it—and, as above, at the time you're playing the Force Missile, you can't play the Glibness.

DrSnooze wrote:
I use a Cure spell. For my Cure recharge, I use Glibness and gain the +3 bonus on the recharge for both spells. Then, on the same turn, I encounter an Ogre. I use Force Missile to fight it. I still have the effects from Glibness, so I gain a +3 bonus on my Force Missile attack. This might be questionable, but my interpretation is that I didn't play Glibness on this check - I just still have the bonus from a previous play.

Yeah, that's all good.

DrSnooze wrote:
4. So if #3 is correct, then how about this? I encounter an Ogre. I decide to play Glibness immediately, before any checks occur. I play and recharge at +3. Then, I use Force Missile to combat the Ogre, gaining the +3 bonus from Glibness, which was played prior to this check.

Nope—this will be clarified in the FAQ, but when you begin an encounter, if you don't evade it, you immediately begin attempting the check. There's no opportunity to play cards there.

Basically, there are three times when you can play that glibness—before the encounter, during the "play cards that affect the check" step, and after the encounter. And if you're using an Attack spell, the second of those is not an option because of the "one spell per check" rule.


So, I'm Lem in a combat check with a monster. I cast Inflict, and then I immediately attempt the check to recharge it, so this is a new check and I am allowed to play one boon of each type, so I play glibness to assist to get +3 charisma to Lem's divine die which lasts the rest of the round. Back to the check with the monster, I roll Lem's divine die get the +3 bonus to my combat check too.

This seems kind of wrong, but if I'm allowed to preform a recharge check in the middle of the check to defeat the monster, it's a new check, so I see no reason why I could not play another spell.

Edit: this is probably incorrect, I'm sure we will find out more about recharge timing from the developers soon.


I think the problem is spells like Glibness, Strength, and Speed specify that they affect every check for the rest of the turn.

Are they then able to be played at all during the timing window of playing a card to assist with a check...like Aid, or Guidance?

Should they be their own category of spell that must be played proactively prior to an encounter or a check?

Or should they be allowed to be either proactive or reactive?

If they can be played reactively then the timing of when a spell recharge is performed matters. If they are only proactive then recharge timing, for these spell effects at least, is a non-issue.


Vic Wertz wrote:
Nope—you don't recharge that Force Missile at the end of the check, you recharge it immediately after playing it—and, as above, at the time you're playing the Force Missile, you can't play the Glibness.

So, is this restriction only because you are involved in an encounter? In other words, pretend that there is a spell that lets me draw 3 cards. I play that spell and then I happen to draw Glibness. Can I then use Glibness to help me recharge this theoretical card that let me draw 3 cards?

Liberty's Edge

I believe that would be acceptable.
Is there a spell that lets you draw cards?


Myriade,

No, I made up such a card to try to better understand the reasoning for the original ruling (still waiting for an answer here for my theoretical question, but they are probably too busy answering real questions right now :)


Vic Wertz wrote:
Nope—you don't recharge that Force Missile at the end of the check, you recharge it immediately after playing it—and, as above, at the time you're playing the Force Missile, you can't play the Glibness.

This ruleing brings up a couple of questions.

1) If its imediately after playing that you re-charge does that mean that cure can recharge itself from the discard if you fail the re-charge check? I suspect not, because the effect has to happen first.. but that seems a little wonky since the effect of Force Missle only sort of already happened.

2) More importantly since the check happens after playing the card can't you play cards that affect that check? Meaning play Glibness to affect the re-charge not the combat? Or has it been ruled that re-charge is not a check? So I can't use a blessing to get an extra die or lem or Lini's powers?


Gary,

Vic responded about this in another thread.

They're still discussing it, but it sounds like Vic's comment about immediately recharging card when they're played may turn out to be incorrect.


Gary Johns wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
Nope—you don't recharge that Force Missile at the end of the check, you recharge it immediately after playing it—and, as above, at the time you're playing the Force Missile, you can't play the Glibness.

This ruleing brings up a couple of questions.

1) If its imediately after playing that you re-charge does that mean that cure can recharge itself from the discard if you fail the re-charge check? I suspect not, because the effect has to happen first.. but that seems a little wonky since the effect of Force Missle only sort of already happened.

There's no chance of this happening with Cure since it has a very specific wording about taking cards out of the discard pile, shuffling them into your deck and only then do you discard [and by extension, attempt to recharge] the Cure spell itself.

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