Patrick Harris @ MU |
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As of 10/4/2012, it was clarified that certain requirements for the Diabolist are not fully waived.
First, on documentation: The Guide 5.0 says that "Roleplaying requirements for prestige classes (such as particular ceremonies or killing a devil) are waived in Pathfinder Society" and that needed adjustments are found on the Additional Resources page. From what I can see, the message board ruling has not made the transition to AR or FAQ, and the list of clarifications is now gone. This makes that information nonobvious, leading to confusion--people might make take Diabolist at 6th level, since all mechanical requirements are met at that point, only to find out later they were meant to wait until level 8 or 10 (the first level after they can cast 4th level cleric or 5th level wizard spells). Resolution of this is problematic.
Second, on the requirement: This sets the Diabolist class apart from most others. In fact, unless there's a corner case of which I'm not aware, it makes it functionally unique. In PFS, roleplaying requirements "such as particular ceremonies or killing a devil" are waived (again, per the Guide). Additionally, the clarified requirements for Diabolist listed above require an expenditure of resources, which no other prestige class (of which I am aware) requires.
Finally, on the class: As written, the mechanical requirements of the Diabolist class are set to post-5th-level, which is fairly standard. In a home game, the GM would presumably work with the player to meet the roleplaying requirements; since that can't be done in PFS the requirement moves the class back to post-7th- or post-9th-level (depending on divine/arcane). Considering the dearth of higher level play in PFS, this goes a long way to making the Diabolist difficult, if not impossible, to play with.
Proposal: Waive this requirement. This brings Diabolist in line with other prestige classes both for requirements and availability. I do not feel that this is overpowering--the Diabolist PrC comes with some pretty serious limitations, especially in Organized Play (failed Raise Deads are not really affordable in this setup).
Otherwise: I feel strongly that this requirement should be waived; I don't think it benefits anyone to have one specific PrC significantly more restricted than others. That said, if this requirement absolutely cannot be waived for whatever reasons, please note it on the Additional Resources page to avoid confusion in the future. The Guide does say that "any minor adjustments needed" will be noted on the AR page; while this isn't actually a change from RAW, it's a change from PFS RAW back to standard RAW (if that makes sense), so it should be noted visibly.
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Alternatively, Mike could just make a mention in the Additional Resources after the listing of Diabolist: "you must be able to cast lesser planar ally or lesser planar binding to take levels in this prestige class." Seems simple enough.
Mechanically, this PRC is excellent (I have two in PFS play thusfar). You get an imp animal companion, which I think is better than a familiar as it has it's own feat selection (total customization of your wand mule). You get straight spellcasting (a rarity as far as PRCs go). The only mechanical drawback is if you die, which hopefully shouldn't be happening anyway. Additionally, opening it up at 6 would be giving Imps to players prior to people with IMProved Familiar, which doesn't feel right.
So I would be opposed to waiving that part of the requirements for those reasons.
Well written petition, Patrick. But I humbly disagree.
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Patrick Harris @ MU |
Alternatively, Mike could just make a mention in the Additional Resources after the listing of Diabolist: "you must be able to cast lesser planar ally or lesser planar binding to take levels in this prestige class." Seems simple enough.
That's what I had in mind for my "otherwise" section. :)
Mechanically, this PRC is excellent (I have two in PFS play thusfar). You get an imp animal companion, which I think is better than a familiar as it has it's own feat selection (total customization of your wand mule). You get straight spellcasting (a rarity as far as PRCs go). The only mechanical drawback is if you die, which hopefully shouldn't be happening anyway. Additionally, opening it up at 6 would be giving Imps to players prior to people with IMProved Familiar, which doesn't feel right.
That's a fair point, and one I hadn't considered. I still think uniformity in PrC requirements is critical, but I'll settle for a note in the AR so there's less confusion about it.
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The animal companion imp can't use wands because only a select group of improved familiars can use wands, and animal companions cannot.
The FAQ on Familiar/AC with Magic Items has no measurable difference between AC's and Improved Familiars.
Only listed difference:
Improved Familiars just get the "hands slot" for free.
The brownie, faerie dragon, imp, lyrakien azata, mephit, quasit, sprite familiars, granted by the Improved Familiar feat, use the Biped (hands) section of the chart.
An Imp Animal Companion can take the Extra Item Slot feat to get the hands slot.
Previously, it was listed in the FAQ that various Improved Familiars could use wands. Such text was removed however, so now the FAQ is vague regarding the activation of wands by improved familiars.
CRobledo |
David_Bross wrote:He also stated you summoned it and have to pay the costs. Even for a nonhazardous task a 1 day summon costs like 2 thousand goldExactly! Unusual in the extreme for a PFS PrC.
Not exactly. Living Monolith also has a 1,000 GP "tax" to go into it, as well as a 5,000 GP tax to later on to take level 5 of it.
MrSin |
Not exactly. Living Monolith also has a 1,000 GP "tax" to go into it, as well as a 5,000 GP tax to later on to take level 5 of it.
Both of them are weird in that they have an effective tax imo.
You get straight spellcasting (a rarity as far as PRCs go).
Which is why most PrCs suck for spellcasters to be honest. Same as 3.5, you almost always want the full casting progression and anything less is a bit on the lame side of things, with an occasional 9/10 sneaking in. Wizards and other prepared casters take another smack to the face in paying for spells they really should've gotten in the first place.
Anyways, I'd be cool with less exceptions to the rules, in particular weird ones like this one.(well, I think its weird anyway.)
Patrick Harris @ MU |
Not exactly. Living Monolith also has a 1,000 GP "tax" to go into it, as well as a 5,000 GP tax to later on to take level 5 of it.
So that's two out of how many? "Unusual" still seems an apt adjective.
The animal companion imp can't use wands because only a select group of improved familiars can use wands, and animal companions cannot.
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CRobledo wrote:Not exactly. Living Monolith also has a 1,000 GP "tax" to go into it, as well as a 5,000 GP tax to later on to take level 5 of it.So that's two out of how many? "Unusual" still seems an apt adjective.
CWheezy wrote:The animal companion imp can't use wands because only a select group of improved familiars can use wands, and animal companions cannot.clarified: Diabolist's Imp can use wands
Well found, Patrick!
CRobledo |
CRobledo wrote:Not exactly. Living Monolith also has a 1,000 GP "tax" to go into it, as well as a 5,000 GP tax to later on to take level 5 of it.So that's two out of how many? "Unusual" still seems an apt adjective
You said "to the extreme" :P Nevertheless, I just wanted to establish for others reading this thread that there is precedent for there being a cost.
BigNorseWolf |
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BigNorseWolf wrote:Many characters could conceivably meet the pre reqs and not even know it...Is that a problem?
Not really. I mean There's friendly contact with an outsider, and then there's friendly contact with an outsider...
CWheezy |
clarified: Diabolist's Imp can use wands
Oh that's nice.
Do they use all the same rules? Because a diabolist imp has a lot more skill points to play around with than a familiar
MrSin |
You get what you pay for with prestige classes, if the class has higher requirements it generally has better abilities to compensate (Living Monolith, Mammoth Rider, Diabolist).
I'm not sure if that's how that works. How much gold you have ingame grows pretty quickly, so making an 'entrance fee' doesn't really affect much beyond making it a bit painful at the start maybe, and late to bloom isn't really balance. What does mammoth rider pay for exactly?
Mystic Lemur |
If it's not going to be reconsidered, it needs to at least be put somewhere more visible like additional resources. I've been building my wizard towards this PrC since I created him, and this is the first I'd heard about it. He was delaying until after 7th anyway, but knowing that he'd have to delay until after 9th makes it much less attractive.
Patrick Harris @ MU |
If it's not going to be reconsidered, it needs to at least be put somewhere more visible like additional resources. I've been building my wizard towards this PrC since I created him, and this is the first I'd heard about it. He was delaying until after 7th anyway, but knowing that he'd have to delay until after 9th makes it much less attractive.
This is what I'm saying. Hell, I know someone who took his Diabolist through to retirement after taking the PrC at 7th level Wizard, and nobody realized what was going on. These requirements are way too specific to be left in a forum post somewhere.
MrSin |
MrSin wrote:
Which is why most PrCs suck for spellcasters to be honest. Same as 3.5, you almost always want the full casting progression and anything less is a bit on the lame side of things, with an occasional 9/10 sneaking in.Yet people persist in playing sorcerors and oracles.
I dun get it.
Well, losing 3 or even 5 caster levels/progression over 10 levels isn't exactly the same as playing at the spontaneous progression and I definitely wasn't attacking spontaneous progression. Spontaneous lose even more from that deal imo.
MrSin |
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While I'm always a fan of more clarity, assuming you can use a scroll to sneak your way into a prestige class early is kinda sketchy. Some of us ask ahead of time, instead of playing the character a lot assuming we can get away with the sneakiness.
On the other hand it could mean you honestly made a mistake, I though the planar binding thing was a roleplaying requirement and waved when I saw it. Gotta' be careful about assuming the worst for everyone, because then no one has fun and its impossible to do anything.
Victor Zajic |
I thought it was a roleplaying requirement too. But I asked to be sure, since removing the requirement takes either a hefty gold cost, or a minimum level requirement off of the class, which is very unlike the other roleplaying requirements they waive, like killing a devil of greater HD in single combat, or getting permission to join the lollipop guild.
People were plenty willing to link me to the multiple discussions of the topic where PFS staff had made their ruling that you have to actually know the spell to meet the requirements.
Making a character in PFS requires some prep work - making sure the stuff you want to take is legal in pathfinder society. When something's not straightforward, it's always best to ask about it.
Patrick Harris @ MU |
While I'm always a fan of more clarity, assuming you can use a scroll to sneak your way into a prestige class early is kinda sketchy. Some of us ask ahead of time, instead of playing the character a lot assuming we can get away with the sneakiness.
It's not sneaking. The requirement is that you have to have cast the spell, not that you are able to cast it again. In a home game, that would work.
I thought it was a roleplaying requirement too. But I asked to be sure, since removing the requirement takes either a hefty gold cost, or a minimum level requirement off of the class, which is very unlike the other roleplaying requirements they waive, like killing a devil of greater HD in single combat, or getting permission to join the lollipop guild.
People were plenty willing to link me to the multiple discussions of the topic where PFS staff had made their ruling that you have to actually know the spell to meet the requirements.
Making a character in PFS requires some prep work - making sure the stuff you want to take is legal in pathfinder society. When something's not straightforward, it's always best to ask about it.
Not everyone's on the boards. The number I see thrown around is 3%. That's why I want to put it on the AR page if we can't waive it.
Victor Zajic |
You and I, sir, have different interpretations of the word "sneaky". Intent seems pretty clear to me, trying to get around it levels early qualifies as sneaky in my book. The guy who wrote the class used similar terminology to describe the possibility of using scrolls to get early access.
But as I posted above, I'm all for more clarity in the AR page, no arguements there.
I wouldn't hold your breath for it to be waived, since PFS staff has alerady rules that what it means for PFS is that you have the spell known and able to be cast.
Honestly, late access to the class isn't terrible. Since the Imp is based on caster level and not class level, you get a super-powered wand/scroll monkey right off the get go. Next level he's going to start making up for the lack of a cleric in my main group.
Dylos |
Even if you do need to be level 9 for wizard or 7 for cleric before entering into Diabolist, wouldn't you be able to retrain into the PrC after fulfilling the requirement?
Say you have the level 7 cleric, the first time you are level 7 you cast Lesser Planar Ally and at the end of the scenario you retrain level 6 and 7 of cleric into Diabolist, since the requirement only needs to be met once and the other requirements are meant by having 5 cleric levels. It'd cost a good chunk of Prestige, but it could be worth it.
For the level 9 wizard, they would cast Lesser Planar Binding as soon as they hit 9, and then retrain into 4 levels of Diabolist as they sell their soul to the devil. Again it would cost a lot of Prestige, but it might be worth it.
Victor Zajic |
Because the PFS ruling is that you have to be able to cast the spell for in order to qualify.
Mark Moreland just posted in another thread that you can't retrain to bootstrap around requirements, if without the prestige class you don't meet the requirements for the pretige class, it's not a legal retrain in PFS.
Straight RAW, what you propose would be legal, because the RAW requirement doesn't mention anything about being able to cast the spell.
Patrick Harris @ MU |
Even if you do need to be level 9 for wizard or 7 for cleric before entering into Diabolist, wouldn't you be able to retrain into the PrC after fulfilling the requirement?
Say you have the level 7 cleric, the first time you are level 7 you cast Lesser Planar Ally and at the end of the scenario you retrain level 6 and 7 of cleric into Diabolist, since the requirement only needs to be met once and the other requirements are meant by having 5 cleric levels. It'd cost a good chunk of Prestige, but it could be worth it.
For the level 9 wizard, they would cast Lesser Planar Binding as soon as they hit 9, and then retrain into 4 levels of Diabolist as they sell their soul to the devil. Again it would cost a lot of Prestige, but it might be worth it.
... huh. I think that would work, yes. It would cost at least 11 scenarios worth of PP (or at least 3 2/3 levels worth of scenarios) to do, but I don't see any reason it wouldn't work.
Or would you argue that Diabolist has synergy with Wizard? It fits the description under Prestige Classes in the Retraining section. Hmmmm!
Cao Phen |
Ok, so I had actually played a sorcerer in a module with the prestiege class, assuming that the requirements were waived, since I was looking at page 22 in the Guide to Organized Play and thought that it was part of the Roleplay portion with the binding. I recieved experience and leveled with it. Does this mean I have an invalid chonicle sheet? Do I have to start from the beginning to change stuff to where it becomes PFS Legal, as stated in page 27?
Dylos |
Because the PFS ruling is that you have to be able to cast the spell for in order to qualify.
Mark Moreland just posted in another thread that you can't retrain to bootstrap around requirements, if without the prestige class you don't meet the requirements for the pretige class, it's not a legal retrain in PFS.
Straight RAW, what you propose would be legal, because the RAW requirement doesn't mention anything about being able to cast the spell.
Except the prestige class doesn't say you need to continue to be able to cast the spell, just that you need to cast the spell once, therefore you still meet all requirements after having cast the spell once even when you retrain to 5 wizard or cleric levels and the rest diabolist.
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Patrick Harris @ MU |
Cao Phen wrote:Ok, so I had actually played a sorcerer in a module with the prestiege class, assuming that the requirements were waived, since I was looking at page 22 in the Guide to Organized Play and thought that it was part of the Roleplay portion with the binding. I recieved experience and leveled with it. Does this mean I have an invalid chonicle sheet? Do I have to start from the beginning to change stuff to where it becomes PFS Legal, as stated in page 27?Just rebuild the invalid levels. You still played the game. No harm, no foul.
That would be my advice as well.
That said, this is an excellent example of the problem. If you have no knowledge of the special circumstances of this particular PrC, these requirements seem to be RP requirements, which are handwaved for PFS. And I think they should be. But if not, we need to put it in the AR.
Sesharan |
I would also like this to be addressed. I've been looking at the Diabolist for a Sorcerer of mine, and I'd really like to know how I should be planning the next few levels. Can I use a scroll? Does it make any difference that I already have an Imp familiar? After all, I spent a feat on getting that imp, and as I understand it, that feat will basically be wasted once I take the class (unless one imp can be both a familiar and a companion, which seems unlikely). Even if I retrain the feat, it's going to end up costing me an amount fairly close to what I would have spent on the binding.
And if I can't use a scroll, do I actually have to know the spell or do I just have to be technically able to cast it? Because learning a new 5th level spell that I probably won't use just to qualify for the class is a big drain on my resources, one way or the other.
Also, as a side note, it would be great to have some confirmation on what item slots an imp companion gets under the Animal Archive rules. I assume the same as an imp familiar, but I've got nothing to really back that up.
Patrick Harris @ MU |
I would also like this to be addressed. I've been looking at the Diabolist for a Sorcerer of mine, and I'd really like to know how I should be planning the next few levels. Can I use a scroll? Does it make any difference that I already have an Imp familiar? After all, I spent a feat on getting that imp, and as I understand it, that feat will basically be wasted once I take the class (unless one imp can be both a familiar and a companion, which seems unlikely). Even if I retrain the feat, it's going to end up costing me an amount fairly close to what I would have spent on the binding.
And if I can't use a scroll, do I actually have to know the spell or do I just have to be technically able to cast it? Because learning a new 5th level spell that I probably won't use just to qualify for the class is a big drain on my resources, one way or the other.
Also, as a side note, it would be great to have some confirmation on what item slots an imp companion gets under the Animal Archive rules. I assume the same as an imp familiar, but I've got nothing to really back that up.
As it stands, all of these questions have been officially answered. If you look through the thread above, you will find most of them.
The purpose of this thread is not to ask for clarity. It is to ask for a reconsideration, or failing that, documentation.
That said, your questions demonstrate the need for better documentation, so thank you for that.
Skorn |
I have a PFS Diabolist (My very first Pathfinder character). He became one at level 6, buying and using scrolls to meet the requirements. He paid for the scrolls, cast the spells and made the rolls to bind the devil, and had a DM witness and sign for said rolls. I have email from campaign staff documenting the procedure at the time. The character is in a binder at home so I cannot share who blessed this process today, but I could do so tonight.
He is, of course, from Cheliax. :)
Patrick Harris @ MU |
I have a PFS Diabolist (My very first Pathfinder character). He became one at level 6, buying and using scrolls to meet the requirements. He paid for the scrolls, cast the spells and made the rolls to bind the devil, and had a DM witness and sign for said rolls. I have email from campaign staff documenting the procedure at the time. The character is in a binder at home so I cannot share who blessed this process today, but I could do so tonight.
He is, of course, from Cheliax. :)
Interesting. Do you know when this happened? My understanding is that this ruling is just a reinforcement of something Josh Frost said years ago, so I'm curious at what point the ruling changed and/or changed back.
Victor Zajic |
Victor Zajic wrote:Except the prestige class doesn't say you need to continue to be able to cast the spell, just that you need to cast the spell once, therefore you still meet all requirements after having cast the spell once even when you retrain to 5 wizard or cleric levels and the rest diabolist.Because the PFS ruling is that you have to be able to cast the spell for in order to qualify.
Mark Moreland just posted in another thread that you can't retrain to bootstrap around requirements, if without the prestige class you don't meet the requirements for the pretige class, it's not a legal retrain in PFS.
Straight RAW, what you propose would be legal, because the RAW requirement doesn't mention anything about being able to cast the spell.
Except that PFS campaign staff made a ruling for PFS the requirement is being able to cast the spell, not just cast it once. It has to be on your spells known, and you have to be able to cast 5th level spells, before you can take the class.
RAW, you are correct, but PFS-specific ruling trumps RAW, for PFS at least.
Mystic Lemur |
3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
As long as we're asking for clarification anyway, does the Cheliax vanity "Imp Servitor" meet the conditions for Diabolist if the game session lasts longer than one in-game day? Chelish are supposed to be better at binding devils, so it makes sense.
[Edit]If no, does it at least substitute for the gold cost?[/Edit]
Patrick Harris @ MU |
My email was from Mark Moreland and is dated Feb. 11, 2011.
Directions were to "Just by one scroll of Lesser Planar Ally and have a GM witness the spell craft roll."
Datewise, that's been overruled by the clarification I quoted above. Not to say it invalidates your character retroactively ... although someone else might. But since he's retired, screw it.
Patrick Harris @ MU |
1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As long as we're asking for clarification anyway, does the Cheliax vanity "Imp Servitor" meet the conditions for Diabolist if the game session lasts longer than one in-game day? Chelish are supposed to be better at binding devils, so it makes sense.
[Edit]If no, does it at least substitute for the gold cost?[/Edit]
This is a great question!
RAW I would say that it does, but since the intent of the PFS limitations seems to be making the class less accessible, I think the campaign leadership will probably say no.