Height of Black Tentacles


Rules Questions


Bit of a grey area. How would you rule on the following questions about the black tentacles spell?

1) What height can black tentacles reach to do their grappling? 5ft? 10ft?

2) Can black tentacles grapple (low) flying creatures? If yes, how low do they have to be?


The tentacles receive a +1 size bonus so they're probably at least 10' long, so 10 feet for both questions.


Speaker for the Dead wrote:
The tentacles receive a +1 size bonus so they're probably at least 10' long, so 10 feet for both questions.

That is what I thought as well but couldn't remember the reason.

Anyone else agree/disagree?


If I felt like doing the math, I'd figure what a 20' radius works out to as a sphere and use that in 5 foot increments. 20' tall at the center of the spell, tapering off towards the edges.

Or more likely I'd handwave it and say 10 feet, cause of Speaker's reason


It's no different than other area spells, creatures within the area are subject to spell effect: Grapple attacks in this case.
The area is radius: 20 foot spread, and you just apply the 20 foot radius template in the vertical plane as well.
That is 20' high at the central four squares, 15' for much of the area, and as low as 5' at the edges.
If it's close you just measure the actual distance from center vertex to the closest square of potential target creature using standard distance rules.
Since the rules don't state otherwise, I assume that a square diagonal to another in two dimensions just counts as any other diagonal distance, i.e. first one is 1 squares distance, second one is 2 squares.
A creature only needs one square in the area to be subject to a Grapple check of course.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

it is different, because spells with a spread and a height , like flame strike and sleet storm create cylinders, and are described as such in their entries.

the height of black tentacles is a rules-vague area. i've seen 10 ft., i've seen 5ft. , i've seen widened ones that claim to be 20' tall. you could also say the individual tentacle length is irrelevant:

Quote:
This spell causes a field of rubbery black tentacles to appear, burrowing up from the floor and reaching for any creature in the area.

, and treat it as a case of disregarding the height for determining range.

as a 20 ft. radius spread:

Quote:
A spread spell extends out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.
Quote:
When casting a cylinder-shaped spell, you select the spell's point of origin. This point is the center of a horizontal circle, and the spell shoots down from the circle, filling a cylinder. A cylinder-shaped spell ignores any obstructions within its area.

since its a spread, you could also infer it doesn't reach UP, and merely spreads out covering the ground indicated by the area of the spell, as its not described as a cylinder or sphere.

its not a cloud, its got no height given in the spell description. even obscuring mist says that it spreads 20 ft high :
Quote:
Effect cloud spreads in 20-ft. radius from you, 20 ft. high


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's not a sphere, so it doesn't stretch 20 feet up. I'd go with 5-foot high (the spell description is silent on the length of the tentacles). And it must be on a "floor", as per the first line of the spell.


Seraphimpunk wrote:
...i've seen widened ones that claim to be 20' tall. ..

I wish to make a joke about Heighten Spell.

More seriously, fluff aside the 20' radius spread on a fireball is no different to the 20' radius spread on a black tentacles. Given that they have the same mechanical area, why would they be any different in function? Given that, I'd say think of it more as a bunch of 20 foot long tentacles pop up from that point and grab everything they can lay their.... suckers?... rather than a sea of smaller tentacles popping up in a 20 foot radius.


Interesting that during the conversion from 3.5 to PF they dropped the bit about treating them as large creatures, though they left in the size bonus to the CMB. Strictly by RAW, I'd agree with Quandry since Spread spells affect in all directions. For ease of table use, I'd probably run it as a 20' radius circle on the ground that effects 10' upwards within that circle.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ecaterina Ducaird wrote:


More seriously, fluff aside the 20' radius spread on a fireball is no different to the 20' radius spread on a black tentacles. Given that they have the same mechanical area, why would they be any different in function? Given that, I'd say think of it more as a bunch of 20 foot long tentacles pop up from that point and grab everything they can lay their.... suckers?... rather than a sea of smaller tentacles popping up in a 20 foot radius.

mainly that one is burrowing up from the floor. requiring a floor to cast on, like the Pit spells.

Fireball is also ingrained in our minds as a "ball of fire". though nothing says that it blossoms into a sphere of fire, or reaches to a height of 20 ft. like the fog spells. Its just less common to question it because one is a ball, while the other is more like defining an area of inky blackness for tentacles to writhe.

interesting that for table clarity, you'd run it as a 20' radius spread / 10' high cylinder rather than as its written...


So by RAW it is effectively a 20ft half-sphere of tentacles (scary) but for ease of play some choose to use the 20ft radius, 10ft high option.

The 10ft high option is preferable to me since all the tentacles are "large". Unless maybe they are stretchy rubber tentacles.

I think we can agree that they are definitely more than 5ft high and that they can grab critters out of the air (if they enter the spell area).


Avianfoo wrote:
So by RAW it is effectively a 20ft half-sphere of tentacles (scary) but for ease of play some choose to use the 20ft radius, 10ft high option.

Rather than ease of play, it harkens back to an older version of the spell that specified 10ft. RAW you would imagine the tentacles coming only from the point of origin with a reach of 20ft

James

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

You know, the easy way to answer this question would have been to look at another spell with the exact same area (20ft radius spread): fireball.

They're both 20ft radius spreads, neither contains text creating an exception to what that means, therefore both have exactly the same area.

So whatever shape your fireball is, that's your black tentacles area too.

Liberty's Edge

To cite Wikipedia:

"Radius

In classical geometry, the radius of a circle or sphere is the length of a line segment from its center to its perimeter. The name comes from Latin radius, meaning "ray" but also the spoke of a chariot wheel."

So "Area 20-ft.-radius spread" in a 3 dimensional world is the radius of a sphere.

Magic chapter wrote:

Burst, Emanation, or Spread: Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, an emanation, or a spread. In each case, you select the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point.

A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. A burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.

...

A spread spell extends out like a burst but can turn corners. You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.

...

A sphere-shaped spell expands from its point of origin to fill a spherical area. Spheres may be bursts, emanations, or spreads.

As I see it, a spell with a "Area 20-ft.-radius spread" line in his description will have its effect start in a central point and extend for 20', paying the cost of turning corners (i.e. if he need to make a L turn or a U turn to reach a location, it will not fill a whole 20'radius sphere).

A spell with a "Area 20-ft.-radius sphere" will fill the whole area (or encompass the whole area) regardless of the actual distance traveled to reach the border of the area.
Notice that there are very few if any spell with a spherical area, the spell that cite a sphere have a spherical effect, like flaming sphere: "Effect 5-ft.-diameter sphere" or prismatic sphere: "Effect 10-ft.-radius sphere centered on you".


It really amazes me how many times this specific question comes up and how much debate there is on it.

Haven't any of the threads where this has come up prompted a FAQ or any developer input?

As far as I'm concerned, in the absence of some compelling evidence to the contrary, radius = radius, so that means the spell's effect is a half-sphere that reaches 20 feet up into the air.

Exactly why does this become such an issue? Is it because people try to fly over the spell effect to avoid it?


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

It really amazes me how many times this specific question comes up and how much debate there is on it.

Exactly why does this become such an issue? Is it because people try to fly over the spell effect to avoid it?

Yes.

Liberty's Edge

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

It really amazes me how many times this specific question comes up and how much debate there is on it.

Haven't any of the threads where this has come up prompted a FAQ or any developer input?

As far as I'm concerned, in the absence of some compelling evidence to the contrary, radius = radius, so that means the spell's effect is a half-sphere that reaches 20 feet up into the air.

Exactly why does this become such an issue? Is it because people try to fly over the spell effect to avoid it?

Probably.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Exactly why does this become such an issue? Is it because people try to fly over the spell effect to avoid it?

Because by the level that you will encounter the spell, many combatants will be able to access all three dimensions available.

The issue on why it comes up, is that it is a change from previous editions without much fanfare; thus it gets played as if it wasn't changed a significant amount of the time...

-James


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Seraphimpunk wrote:
Fireball is also ingrained in our minds as a "ball of fire". though nothing says that it blossoms into a sphere of fire, or reaches to a height of 20 ft. like the fog spells. Its just less common to question it because one is a ball, while the other is more like defining an area of inky blackness for tentacles to writhe.

Actually that is more of a Legacy ruling regarding Fireball. You don't want to know how many characters I have had die, pre-3rd ed, because the Magic-User's Player didn't bother to do the math to determine just how much volume was taken up by their Fireball when we were in an enclosed space...


Irnk, Dead-Eye's Prodigal wrote:
Actually that is more of a Legacy ruling regarding Fireball. You don't want to know how many characters I have had die, pre-3rd ed, because the Magic-User's Player didn't bother to do the math to determine just how much volume was taken up by their Fireball when we were in an enclosed space...

I seem to recall 33,510.25 cubic feet... but it's been ages.


It makes sense to me that a fireball is a half sphere with a 20' radius. Less so a spell like black tentacles. I think all the tentacles would be exactly the same length, not 20' in the center of the cluster and tapering down to little wee ones on the outside edge.

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