Is it possible to keep the DCs up on a caster bard?

[FangDragon]

At low levels caster bards seem to work OK, although they don't get many spells per day. At higher levels that's less of an issue, however as a 2/3 casting class they casting 4th level spells when wizards are casting 6th so they'd need Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus just to keep the DCs up with a wizard who didn't take those (and the Wizard probably did take those).

There's Varisian Tattoo and Bloodmage Initiate to boost CL by 2, apart from traits is there any other way of boosting CL / DCs I missed?

There is Dirge of Doom at level 8 for the Debuff, but that means you're not running inspire.

Thoughts?

[Sangalor]

There are various ways, yes.
One is an ioun stone (orange I believe) that increases your caster level.

Otherwise you always have two options:
1. Increase your DC
2. Decrease (debuff) your enemy's saving throws.

Wrt. #1 you are not really much different from a wizard that focused on evocation. Read the blockbuster guide to blaster wizard, most of the ideas there apply to you as well.
Regarding feats you already mentioned (greater) spell focus. You can also go for (greater) spell specialization and the spell perfection feats.
Heighten spell is often underestimated. For a spontaneous caster it is worth a lot since you can make sure that one spell you want will have your highest DC. And it will at least pass a globe of lesser invulnerability ;-)
Items that allow you the use of metamagic feats such as the one where you have to save twice (is its persistent spell?) will improve your odds as well.
Besides those things stat boosts are pretty much the only thing you can do.

Wrt. to #2 you can try to apply conditions to them, target different saves, if possible with spells with additional riding effects. For example a creature that has a strong fortitude save might have a weak will save, or a weak reflex save. Be sure to have spells for each of those saves - your bardic knowledge will help you assess creature's strengths.
A sandman bard gets boosts to his DCs against flatfooted opponents, so the combination with weapon focus/dazzling display/shatter defenses and a high intimidate skill, alternatively used with nonlethal weapons and the enforcer feat, or striking from stealth or invisibility will boost it further.

Hope that gives some ideas :-)

[FangDragon]

Thanks for the ioun stone pointer, will nab that.

Sandman bard is pretty cool, shame it gives up inspire which I'd prefer not to.

Debuffs are a good point and Bards rock at intimidate, so opening with Blistering invective seems like a great idea.

Is there anything worthwhile taking from eldritch heritage for a caster bard? If so going human and taking Focused study may be good since you can pump perform comedy for versatile performance intimidate checks and qualify for Eldritch heritage and perhaps boost perception too.

[Ximen Bao]

FangDragon wrote:

Is there anything worthwhile taking from eldritch heritage for a caster bard? If so going human and taking Focused study may be good since you can pump perform comedy for versatile performance intimidate checks and qualify for Eldritch heritage and perhaps boost perception too.

Yes, but since you're feat-starved as a bard, there's usually a better (if blander) option.

[Thymus Vulgaris]

Not a suggestion for heightening DC's, but rather for lowering the opponents' saves:

Of course there is Dirge of Doom. Yes, that means you're not inspiring courage, and isn't that the downfall to all performances that aren't Inspire Courage? Well, there is a way around that. Or two, actually: Virtuoso Performance and Shadowbard. Cast one of these, and you may now maintain two performances at once. The downfall to this is that Shadowbard is a 5th level spell (but its performance rounds are free, so that's cool), and the 4th level spell Virtuoso Performance requires you to spend an additional two performance rounds for the second performance, adding up to 3 rounds of bardic performance per round.
(I do like these spells, and while I haven't gotten around to casting Shadowbard yet, Virtuoso Performance totally saved our butts just yesterday, although I used it for Soothing Performance rather than Dirge of Doom).

Second, if you know you want to target someone's reflex save (or you know someone else in the party wants to), soften them up with Touch of Gracelessness. It's a first level spell, targets fortitude save, gives a penalty to dex equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels (max 1d6+5). The save on this is for half, so when you're at CL10, even if the targets makes its save, it'll be penalised by 3 to 5 points. At a failed save, they'll take 6 to 11, averaging at 8,5. (Note how this penalty might be different from the strength penalty from ray of enfeeblement, in that it's never stated not to stack with itself).
A failed save also means that creatures are knocked prone and any fly manoeuvrability is worsened by one step.

Get a wand of Ill omen. If you're a caster bard you have the Charisma for UMD any way. Now, unless you have a quickened spell to cast or have a quicken rod, this isn't likely to affect you directly. However, if you discuss it with your party beforehand, maybe it can open up for someone else to land some cool debuffs/penalties on them that'll help your own spells succeed.

[Atarlost]

Dirge of doom is inspire courage for caster heavy parties. There's no shame in using it instead of inspire courage if half the party is going to cast a spell with a save.

[strayshift]

Easy to overlook, the first level spell Cultural Adaptation has a long duration (10 min/level), gives 2 minor but potentially useful skill bonuses (+2 diplomacy and disguise) and gives +1 DC to enchantment spells against a selected culture - e.g. goblins, drow, etc.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/cultural-adaptation

[FangDragon]

Touch of Gracelessness sounds like a good idea, thanks!

I'm thinking of this for a possible build:

Standard Bard*, Human
1) Spell Focus; Enchantment, Varisian Tatoo: Enchantment (Daze as SLA is nice at this level)
3) Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
5) Spell Specialization: Cacophonous Call (nauseated is a nasty debuff)
7) Spell Song (debatable, but has some really cool uses)
11) Discordant Voice
13) Heighten Spell ?

* I'd want to keep Inspire, and possibly Dirge of Doom for boss fights, which rules out most archetypes. Dirge Bard, however, may be good for an undead heavy campaign.

Worshiping Shelyn seems like a good idea too, for eagles splendor at level 1.

Edit: Oh thanks for pointing out Cultural Adaptation, that's pretty sweet!

[Thaliak]

If you're allowed to use third party material, consider Magic Reservist, a feat from 4 Winds Fantasy Gaming that boosts the DC of hybrid casters' spells to keep them on pace with dedicated casters.

Once you hit level 13, you can start Dirge of Doom as a swift action to render your enemies shaken, cast a spell while their saves are low, and restart inspire courage with your move action. This consumes two rounds of bardic music and requires you to be within 30 feet of the target at the start of the round, but it's useful when you can pull it off.

If you use Eldritch Heritage to gain access to the Arcane Bloodline, you can double the bonus gained from Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus in one school. This requires four feats and only applies at level 17, so I wouldn't recommend doing it unless the game starts close to that level.

The Arcane bloodline could also give you access to a familiar. If you pick a familiar that can wield a wand and you pump Use Magic Device, you could buy a Wand of Ill Omen and have your familiar cast it on the enemies you want to fail their saves. Alternately, you could pump Intimidate and have it try to render them shaken. In either case, consider taking the Evolved Familiar feat to give your Eidolon the skilled evolution, which will grant it a +8 racial bonus to Use Magic Device or Intimidate.

If you play a Samsaran with the Mystic Past Life alternative racial feature, you can add a few spells from other arcane casters' lists to your class spell list. For example, you might pick spells that target Reflex, something that's rare for bard spells.

You could also pick up Ill Omen. With the Magical Lineage trait, you could quicken it as fourth level spell. Alternately, you could take three metamagic feats (e.g., heighten spell, persist spell and quicken) and Spell Perfection to quicken Ill Omen for free. But if you're going to do that, you might be better of using Spell Perfection to persist one of your favorite spells for free.

The Level 3 spell Arcane Concordance increases the DCs of your spells by 1 and allows you to apply Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Silent Spell, or Still Spell to all of your spells. I like Extend, as many of the bards' best control spells spells are close range. However, unless you have a caster-heavy party or you know trouble is coming, I doubt the spell will see much use. Using a combat action and a third level spell to increase your DC by 1 should rarely be worthwhile.

Needless to say, you can also buy items to boost your charisma.

Your party might be able to help. For example, you might be able to convince your bruisers to take Cornugon Smash, which will let them intimidate any enemy they hit with Power Attack.

Having said that, I wouldn't worry too much about having DCs slightly behind dedicated casters. You can get around low DCs by targeting enemies' weak saves, using spells that affect several enemies instead of individuals, working with your party to set up enemies, or using debuffs that don't require a save (e.g. Silent targeted on the fighter next to the spellcaster). When that's not possible or unwise, you can use Haste and Good Hope to turn your bruisers into killing machines, cast Greater Invisibility on the rogue to make all of his attacks Sneak Attacks, use Jester's Jaunt to position the Fighter for a full attack, or cast Heroic Finale to give the dedicated caster a chance to cast his favorite ninth level spell twice in one round. And if none of that seems wise, you could always pull out a high-level wand of Scorching Ray or a bow to deal damage.

Speaking of damage, consider the Sound Striker archetype, which trades Inspire Competence and Suggestion for short-range damaging performances. The only one worth using in most situations is Weird Words, which lets you make a number of ranged touch attacks equal to your level (max 10) that deal 1d8+Cha damage. It's far from perfect, but it's a great way to do damage without buying magic weapons or wands, or spending feats.

Regarding your build, I would spend fewer resources on boosting your caster level. Remember, CL only affects the range and duration of your spells, not the DCs. Range can be a problem for close range spells like Cacophonous Call, but the 5 or 10 feet you gain from caster level bumps will rarely make a difference.

Duration shouldn't be a concern beyond low levels. Unless your DM differs drastically from the ones I've played with, battles will rarely last longer than 10 rounds, with most ending long before that. This is particularly true with a bard and a few bruisers or archers in the party, as bards make weapon-based characters much, much stronger.

Caster level also helps with spell resistance, but if you're concerned with that, take Spell Penetration so you get the bonus to all of your spells. I would only do that if you know your DM likes enemies with spell resistance.

Personally, I would recommend replacing Varisian Tattoo with Improved Initiative. As a bard, you want to act before everyone else so you can start Inspire Courage before they act or cast area-based battlefield control spells such as Glitterdust and Confusion without worrying about affecting your melee bruisers.

For ideas on what to replace Spell Specialization (Cacophonous Call) with, consider consulting j b 200's Bard Guide. I'd also suggest Treantmonk's older guide, but he seems to discourage caster bards.

I like Quick Draw. If you're planning to use rods of persistent spell and your DM agrees that the feat applies to rods, it's useful. Bards require a full round action to apply metamagic to a spell, so without Quick Draw, you need to keep the rod on hand at all times or spend a move action to get it out on the round before you cast the persisted spell.

[Atarlost]

FangDragon wrote:

Touch of Gracelessness sounds like a good idea, thanks!

I'm thinking of this for a possible build:

Standard Bard*, Human
1) Spell Focus; Enchantment, Varisian Tatoo: Enchantment (Daze as SLA is nice at this level)
3) Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
5) Spell Specialization: Cacophonous Call (nauseated is a nasty debuff)
7) Spell Song (debatable, but has some really cool uses)
11) Discordant Voice
13) Heighten Spell ?

* I'd want to keep Inspire, and possibly Dirge of Doom for boss fights, which rules out most archetypes. Dirge Bard, however, may be good for an undead heavy campaign.

Worshiping Shelyn seems like a good idea too, for eagles splendor at level 1.

Edit: Oh thanks for pointing out Cultural Adaptation, that's pretty sweet!

Touch of Gracelessness isn't that good. I think there's still only one reflex spell (grease) on the bard list and it's first level. If spontaneous casters weren't penalized on metamagic action economy heightening it might be okay, but you're going to need your move actions for moving to keep enemies in dirge range while without charge lanes and to switch between dirge and courage.

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

Keep in mind that increasing your caster level doesn't affect the DCs of your spells at all. If you're casting illusion spells, go gnome. If you're casting enchantment spells, go Kitsune if you can. Otherwise go Human and take SF(Enchantment).

[FangDragon]

Kitsune sounds great from a mechanical point of view, but I'm not a fan of the fluff (pun intended).

So how about this:

Standard Bard, Human
Traits: Reactionary, Savant (Perform: Oratory) -- boosts intimidate DC
1) Spell Focus: Enchantment, Improved Initiative
3) Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
5) Spell Song or Quick Draw (for metamagic rods if allowed)
5) Heighten Spell -- shame it's a full round action
7) Harmonic Spell or maybe Persistent Spell
11) Discordant Voice

Standard tactics:
Cast Cultural Adaptation in advance where possible, get inspire up asap, then use Blistering Invective to demoralize. That all gives an effective +5 to DC (counting the demoralize as equivalent to +2) which I hope is enough to keep it relevant.

I thought about using Harmonic Spell for a swift action shift to Dirge of Doom, but that't doesn't stack with Blistering Invective, although the no save aspect of Dirge Of Doom might make this a good option anyway.

[Atarlost]

If you're not sure what to do with your level 7 feat take leadership. A witch can take another -2 off saving throws at will with evil eye with a one round duration even if the victim saves.

[Thaliak]

Your build looks fine to me. But remember, applying Versatile Performance to Oratory lets it count as Sense Motive and Diplomacy. If you're interested in boosting your Intimidate DCs, take Comedy, which also gives you bluff; Keyboard Instruments, which also gives you Diplomacy; or Percussion, which also gives you Handle Animal.

If you're taking Spell Song for the ability to maintain concentration on illusion spells, you could take Racial Heritage (gnome) to get access to Effortless Trickery, which would let you concentrate on illusion spells as a swift action.

You might also consider Master Performer and Grand Master Performer, two feats from the Faction Guide that boost the bonuses your performances grant by 1. Master Performer requires Extra Performance and Grand Master Performer can't be taken until 9th level, but they're solid feats if you want to focus on buffing or don't think the feats you've planned to take will be useful.

[Thymus Vulgaris]

Atarlost wrote:

Touch of Gracelessness isn't that good. I think there's still only one reflex spell (grease) on the bard list and it's first level. If spontaneous casters weren't penalized on metamagic action economy heightening it might be okay, but you're going to need your move actions for moving to keep enemies in dirge range while without charge lanes and to switch between dirge and courage.

There's also Snapdragon Fireworks, but other than that I can't think of any. Meaty friends and fellow casters with fireball will still appreciate the dex penalty though.