Purchasing animal for combat use


Pathfinder Society

Sczarni 4/5

Hello everyone and I know that this sort of questions have been answered a lot, but there is so many specific threads that I cannot find a definite answer for my question. Other then that, question is simple;

Can I purchase a bear (grizzly) or dire bear as an animal? Is it considered always available for purchase and if not, what additional source does provide such animal?

Reason behind this is that I have been toying with an idea of dwarven bear rider for some time but not via regular animal companion/bonded mount features but instead as simple purchased animal mount.

Thanks everyone for answers upfront.

4/5

I suggest being very careful about this. Dropping a bear into a low-level scenario overpowers the system. IF you do it, just buy it and ride it, without having it kill all the enemies that are scaled for your CR and not the bear's.

In my experience, no one wants to watch your mount solo the scenario.

4/5

But to answer your question (which I seem to have missed): you need the Bestiary that contains the stats for the mount you want (Bestiary 1 in this case). You'll need Handle Animal to make it do anything, exotic saddles, etc. They are not "Always Available" so you need the appropriate level of Fame to be able to purchase items of that value.

Sczarni 4/5

@Scott Young

Regarding soloing scenario's; I am well aware of it and I know how much it could devastate low level scenario's both as a GM and player. I have no intentions to solo scenario's. This is merely for show off, plus, I won't be able to ride/handle and afford it until higher levels of play.

Regarding Bestiary 1; I did check this on additional resources but it didn't say anything about animals that can be bought as gear/equipment.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

You'll need the Bestiary for its stats, and whatever book lists it as an item you can purchase (I'm not aware if one exists in Animal Archive or not).

Liberty's Edge 5/5

I don't believe there is any source that grants access to purchase a combat-trained Bear.

Sczarni 4/5

@Andrew
I also believe that it cannot be bought combat trained. I plan to train it fully myself. It takes a single good Handle Animal roll to teach it combat training if I understood everything right.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

The point being, the only animals you can buy have to show up on a list of animals you can buy.

The horses and poney and stuff from the Core Rulebook.

There are some animals in Ultimate Equipment.

There are also some animals in the Animal Archive.

The ones in the Animal Archive, you can purchase as combat trained.

I don't believe any of those books has any form of a bear available.

Sczarni 4/5

@Andrew
Shame. I guess I will reserve the idea for home campaign then. I guess a regular armored horse will do.

Thanks on reply's.

Venture-Agent, Canada—Ontario—Ottawa aka Mistwalker

Animal Archive has Dire Bear for 1,750 gp, but no price for combat trained (page 15).
And it also has Grizzly Bear, 740 gp, but no price for combat trained (page 15)

Liberty's Edge 5/5

If its larger than Large, you can't purchase it per Additional Resources.

Not sure about the Grizzly, but I'm pretty sure the Dire Bear is Huge.

Venture-Agent, Canada—Ontario—Ottawa aka Mistwalker

Both bears are large.
Page 31 bestiary.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

huh... well I guess that's almost worse than the combat-trained Tiger or Bison then.

Sczarni 4/5

Well, Bison is 50x times cheaper so.

Thanks Mistwalker for answering my question.

I have one more question tho, unconnected with previous issue; Would reskinning a horse into bison be appropriate enough? This is partially answered in FAQ, but I need still opinion or two from others.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

no.

The idea of reskinning is to get a creature that does not already have its own stat block.

In other words, if you want a lynx, take small cat (leopard or cheetah as you wish) or if you want a St. Bernard, take riding dog.

But since the Bison has its own stat block, you cannot reskin a horse to be that.

Sczarni 4/5

Got it. Thanks.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

also, be aware, that the price for the combat-trained bison is likely a misprint. I'm not sure how a creature that is a higher CR than the Tiger, ends up being so much cheaper.

Being that its likely a misprint, expect that you could be out of luck if you try to buy one for 75gp.

Also, please be aware, that many GM's will ask you to leave the Bear or Bison or whatever, at home, if they fear you are going to actually use it in combat, especially at the lower tier tables.

Venture-Agent, Canada—Ontario—Ottawa aka Mistwalker

Andrew Christian wrote:
also, be aware, that the price for the combat-trained bison is likely a misprint.

In the Animal Archive, the combat trained versions of all of the creatures listed is the regular price times 1.5, which is also the guidance given for those that do not have combat training prices listed, to multiple by 1.5 for combat trained versions, subject to GM approval.

Sczarni 4/5

@Andrew
No worries. I GM myself and would question myself also if I brought a bison at tier 1-2.

5/5 Venture-Agent, Canada—Alberta—Edmonton aka Artoo

Just a note, purchasing dire animals from animal archive are not legal for PFS. The Grizzly Bear is fine, but not the Dire Bear.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Mistwalker wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
also, be aware, that the price for the combat-trained bison is likely a misprint.
In the Animal Archive, the combat trained versions of all of the creatures listed is the regular price times 1.5, which is also the guidance given for those that do not have combat training prices listed, to multiple by 1.5 for combat trained versions, subject to GM approval.

As a general rule for animals that don't have a combat-trained line item.

But there are animals that have a combat-trained line item.

Tigers are 500gp
Bison somehow are only 75gp

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Malag wrote:

@Andrew

No worries. I GM myself and would question myself also if I brought a bison at tier 1-2.

Ok, good. Just making sure.

Sovereign Court

Well Bison are a lot easier to breed the Tigers are...

I'd imagine they aren't priced based on effectiveness but availability.

Venture-Agent, Canada—Ontario—Ottawa aka Mistwalker

Andrew Christian wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
also, be aware, that the price for the combat-trained bison is likely a misprint.
In the Animal Archive, the combat trained versions of all of the creatures listed is the regular price times 1.5, which is also the guidance given for those that do not have combat training prices listed, to multiple by 1.5 for combat trained versions, subject to GM approval.

As a general rule for animals that don't have a combat-trained line item.

But there are animals that have a combat-trained line item.

Tigers are 500gp
Bison somehow are only 75gp

Non combat trained tigers are 325 gp

Non combat trained bison are 50 gp

Combat versions are approximately 1.5 times the non-combat trained ones (I took a quick look at the list, and for the most part, the general rule holds for non-combat vs combat trained).

Andy, I think that you will be horrified by my soon to be implemented emergency plan - all brought about by your concern over battle cattle.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Morgen wrote:

Well Bison are a lot easier to breed the Tigers are...

I'd imagine they aren't priced based on effectiveness but availability.

They are priced by CR.

Aurochs, Bestiary page 174, are priced at 300gp, or 450gp for combat trained. CR 2

Bison, Bestiary page 174, are priced at 50gp, or 75gp for combat trained. CR 4

Tiger, 325gp, 500gp combat trained. CR 4

Lion, 200gp, 300gp combat trained. CR 3

Elk, 100gp, 150gp combat trained. CR 1

It is pretty clear that the Bison is a misprint.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Mistwalker wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
also, be aware, that the price for the combat-trained bison is likely a misprint.
In the Animal Archive, the combat trained versions of all of the creatures listed is the regular price times 1.5, which is also the guidance given for those that do not have combat training prices listed, to multiple by 1.5 for combat trained versions, subject to GM approval.

As a general rule for animals that don't have a combat-trained line item.

But there are animals that have a combat-trained line item.

Tigers are 500gp
Bison somehow are only 75gp

Non combat trained tigers are 325 gp

Non combat trained bison are 50 gp

Combat versions are approximately 1.5 times the non-combat trained ones (I took a quick look at the list, and for the most part, the general rule holds for non-combat vs combat trained).

Andy, I think that you will be horrified by my soon to be implemented emergency plan - all brought about by your concern over battle cattle.

dare I ask?

4/5

A bison is much easier to obtain than a tiger, I would imagine, and this is what drives the (in-game) price, not the (meta-game) CR. This has been discussed before, and no one has flagged it as a misprint, just a bad idea. In fact, it would have to be 2 misprints, which both happen to follow the exact relationship expected and required of combat-trained versus non-combat-trained costs. That seems unlikely to me.

Venture-Agent, Canada—Ontario—Ottawa aka Mistwalker

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Andrew Christian wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:


Andy, I think that you will be horrified by my soon to be implemented emergency plan - all brought about by your concern over battle cattle.

dare I ask?

Well, reading your objections to battle cattle planted a seed in my mind (always a bad thing to do).

The plan:
The plan is relatively straight forward. As often as I can, I buy a battle trained bison, make it helpful (magic or other method) and cast Carry Companion spell, from the Knights of the Inner Sea Player Companion. This will turn the bison into a statuette that I can throw into bag of holding/pathfinder pouch/handy haversack/etc. Have it noted on the chronicle sheet.

This way, when I am in a desperate situation, I bring them out, say the command word (same for all of them) and order them to charge!

Imagine 10 battle bisons running over everything in their path. A real stampede. Minimum damage of 10d6+60 if all 10 saves are made.

I could even get the party mounted on them, and have everyone ride out on the trampling battle bisons.

Are you sorry that you peaked?
:)

4/5

You can only have one combat "pet" in play at a time, sorry.

Venture-Agent, Canada—Ontario—Ottawa aka Mistwalker

Scott Young wrote:

You can only have one combat "pet" in play at a time, sorry.

Spoil sport.

Then I lend them out to the rest of the party, giving us 6 of them to work with.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Also, while the bear is available via bestiary, and is available combat trained, it is *not* available as a riding animal. (It is under other animal) meaning, I believe, that it is not available to use as a mount short of a feat or class feature.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

chuckle... If you pull that out in say Waking Rune, the Battle Bison will last maybe a round.

If you pull that out in anything lower than a 8-9 or 10-11, or for anything other than a "save my bacon" type of moment... I'd be like...

Spoiler:
YOU CHEESEBALL!

And yeah, I'd say that to the player's face if they started pulling that out for no reason than to just run over every encounter.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

What is the duration on carry companion? I have a vague recollection that they have to be destatued periodically to feed and then you would have to recast the spell. (Or am I thinking of a different spell?)

Venture-Agent, Canada—Ontario—Ottawa aka Mistwalker

Andrew Christian wrote:

chuckle... If you pull that out in say Waking Rune, the Battle Bison will last maybe a round.

If you pull that out in anything lower than a 8-9 or 10-11, or for anything other than a "save my bacon" type of moment... I'd be like...

** spoiler omitted **

And yeah, I'd say that to the player's face if they started pulling that out for no reason than to just run over every encounter.

Oh, it will only be used in an emergency.

Even if they only lasted a round in Waking Rune, they would still have done some damage, occupied the opponents for a few seconds, etc.. Maybe enough to give the party a chance to survive.

Hmmm, maybe I could take one out at a high society event, play with it in my hands, just to torment the GM.
:)
And for some reason, find that all of the opponents all randomly rolled to attack my PC.

Venture-Agent, Canada—Ontario—Ottawa aka Mistwalker

FLite wrote:
What is the duration on carry companion? I have a vague recollection that they have to be destatued periodically to feed and then you would have to recast the spell. (Or am I thinking of a different spell?)

You are thinking of the armor property. Carry Companion is a permanent spell, well, until the command word is spoken again.

Liberty's Edge

FLite wrote:
Also, while the bear is available via bestiary, and is available combat trained, it is *not* available as a riding animal. (It is under other animal) meaning, I believe, that it is not available to use as a mount short of a feat or class feature.

"If you attempt to ride a creature that is ill suited as a mount, you take a –5 penalty on your Ride checks," - CRB. This leads me to believe that, given certain size limitations, anything can be ridden.

The Exchange

Sorry to sound uninformed but what is the "Animal Archive"? I don't remember a book being released of that name so I wonder if I missed it somewhere along the way....thanks. Links please if possible!

Venture-Agent, Canada—Ontario—Ottawa aka Mistwalker

Fake Healer wrote:

Sorry to sound uninformed but what is the "Animal Archive"? I don't remember a book being released of that name so I wonder if I missed it somewhere along the way....thanks. Links please if possible!

Animal Archive is a Player Companion

link

The Exchange

Mistwalker wrote:
Fake Healer wrote:

Sorry to sound uninformed but what is the "Animal Archive"? I don't remember a book being released of that name so I wonder if I missed it somewhere along the way....thanks. Links please if possible!

Animal Archive is a Player Companion

link

Thanks...can't believe I missed that for so long. I feel so out-of-the-loopish. Guess I need to pick that up too....

Lantern Lodge

If you want something more clearly available as a combat trained and viable mount you could always go for the axebeak, which I believe is 1500gp fully trained.

5/5

Mistwalker wrote:
FLite wrote:
What is the duration on carry companion? I have a vague recollection that they have to be destatued periodically to feed and then you would have to recast the spell. (Or am I thinking of a different spell?)
You are thinking of the armor property. Carry Companion is a permanent spell, well, until the command word is spoken again.

Nice try but spells dont persist past the end of a scenario do they?

Sovereign Court

I'm glad this thread came up. I hadn't even thought to do several of the things that are suggested by it.

Can't wait to break out my ridiculous combat animal.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

There are rules in the CRB that cover unusual mounts. There are rules in the CRB that cover training a creature (not necessarily an animal) for mounted combat. None of these rules have been flagged as verboten in PFS. The Grizzly is a large creature of the animal type, so it's a legal purchase. What seems to be the confusion, other than some people speculating wildly instead of checking the rules?

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