What would you like to see in Pathfinder 2.0?


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We love Pathfinder, at least I do, and Paizo managed to get a lot of things right. Eventually however the rules will need to be updated and things will have to evolve or risk becoming stagnant.

So what are some changes that you would like to see in the future that go beyond what simple errata can cover?

Things I'd like to see!

- A complete focus on skills, perhaps a further condensing of rarely used skills. Combining Fly with Acrobatics, combining Climb and Swim and call it Athletics, Combining Knowledge History and Nobility (probably still wouldn't take it.), putting appraise in the toilet. Most importantly detailing the skills and making sure they work fluidly for all 20 levels.

- Make Feint based on CMB vs CMD, have a feat line for it like trip does.

- Create a crafting system that is fun and makes sense, not just an after thought

- Clearly defining and seperating feats into categories that make sense, and giving every character bonus fluff feats or non combat feats. This would really help flesh out characters and promote RP.

- Bring back the darkness. Every creature in the world of Galorian has either low light vision or darkvision save for Humans, Halflings, and maybe a few other things that have some other sense that trumps darkvision. This is why stealth is useless now, concealment no longer exists really. Low light vision should be rare, darkvision should be stupidly rare and saved for things that would have it based on ecology. Also, light should cost resources, not just endlessly cast on stones by a cleric and slinged down a hallway.

- Class Balance, with some good editions to prestige classes or doing away with them completely in favor of base classes or archtypes.

-Facing! Rules that make it matter, and the benefits and drawbacks of it!


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I'd have to say that Paizo got it pretty much right, with a few exceptions: Monk, rogue, and fighter all need a little more love (OK, a lot more love for the monk, some more for the rogue and a little for the fighter).

Feats - some feat trees should be single feats which expand with level, given the proliferation of them and relative weakness of many. Two Weapon Fighting is the poster-child for this: Let it give you an extra attack, then two, then three, based on BAB and Dex score.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Holographic Telepathatic Technology integrated into the rule tablets that are distributed by matter transporters. IE I dont want to see a pathfinder 2.0 untill faaaaar in the future. I really dont want to see another edition period. I am happy exploring what I have. And for the things I dont like about the system, I can house rule it or use alternate rules either form paizo themselves or from 3rd parties. Theres lots of that floating around, and I've had years to work on my house rules for the system (if you count 3.x as well).

Shadow Lodge

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A skill system that abandons d20, and works like Chaosium's BRP.
Get rid of magic items that don't do anything but provide a numerical bonus.
Get rid of feats. They were a good idea, but they've become more of a limiting factor. At first level you have to pick whether your character knows how to wipe his ass or pick his nose.


More Wayne Reynolds pictures of Alaznist fighting Karzoug!
Seriously, if you have not done so already, look at *this* wallpaper. (Even if someone's added Selytiel in the foreground.)


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Has it been two months since the last go round already?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

A ton of stuff. Keep the framework of 3.x, but be willing to make some changes which go beyond skin deep.

- Overhaul magic item crafting to be not a cash cow but rather an efficient character customization tool.

- Limit the christmas tree factor.

- Get rid of Save or Die spells completely, not just some of them.

- Make it harder for full casters to twink out their save DC's.

- In the same vein, make high level monsters actually a threat to high level characters, i.e. more durability and more actions, so that they can actually do their stuff instead of dying in one or two rounds.

- Bring up the classes which are now lagging behind. Make your APG design the standard level of power to aspire to (outside of the Summoner, of course. Either get rid of that abomination or change it to something less broken).

- Make high-level play less of a number-crunching monster, reduce available buffs (limited buff slot idea from the beta, for example).

- Eliminate MAD, but also eliminate SAD. Both are bad.

- Finally get a clear idea what the Monk is about. If you are not willing to make him an ass-kicking Bruce Lee frontline class, then provide one, preferably not bound to the lawful alignment. I'm crossing my fingers for the ACG here, people!

- If you want to keep Sneak Attack around, make it less hard to actually get it into the action. At least the "bad light conditions or light fog make sneak attack impossible" problems have to go.

- And much, much more nitty-gritty, but those are the major things which are making high-level play not that fun and which hamper the game on a general level, IMO. The lower levels actually mostly work out.

Shadow Lodge

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BPorter wrote:
Has it been two months since the last go round already?

You misspelled "weeks".


BPorter wrote:
Has it been two months since the last go round already?

LOL! :-P

I love beating the dust, that use to be goo, that was formly known as a dead horse... just ask my GM, I give him headaches.

Of course, then our party tends to eat 10 Cone of Colds in one round, and then he looks at the Ranger who was like I got Evasion [Female Dog]!

Then says yeah, I'm going to go smoke, you think about how you're going to fix those other four that are dead or dying, should probably fix the cleric first if you can...


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BPorter wrote:
Has it been two months since the last go round already?

I love these threads. Partially because I like and agree with a lot of the ideas and partially because I can start including them now.

Plus I want Paizo to see what people are thinking/talking about.


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I hope they keep this edition for many many more years (every game can use changes but I think this game is fine just where it is. House rule things you and your group have a problem with)


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I would like to see "Copyright 2025, Paizo Publishing".


Mithral Mustang wrote:

Of course, then our party tends to eat 10 Cone of Colds in one round, and then he looks at the Ranger who was like I got Evasion [Female Dog]!

Then says yeah, I'm going to go smoke, you think about how you're going to fix those other four that are dead or dying, should probably fix the cleric first if you can...

As that said "Ranger" I can say seeing your party wipe as you and your animal companion stare at each other because of Evasion and lots of successful reflex rolls, is quite an experience.. Then again trying to fight 10 Yuki-onnas with a useless animal companion, by myself was another story..

But to stay on topic, I think i would like to see a modern setting for the game. After a failed attempt at trying D20 Modern, I've thought about trying to convert Pathfinder into a modern setting. I realize that the Pathfinder system is only limited by your imagination, so I think it could work!! I know there are threads with this very idea, but just saying what I would like to see


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DaveMage wrote:
I would like to see "Copyright 2025, Paizo Publishing".

Yeah, "First Printing, October 2025", something like that.


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Removal of all artifacts (not the items) that come about as a result of trying to maintain backward compatibility. That's it.


--Eliminate Spontaneous casting. You can already cast "spontaneously" with the prepared classes--just prepare the exact same spells every day.
--Divine rules: rules and stats for gods and divine abilities. Do it better than 3.0 "deities and demigods".
--More campaign settings. Only having Golarion is sort of dull, and alienating to people who don't like it as much. This does not mean splitting product lines the way TSR did (and WotC still does), it just means publishing the basic campaign setting book for several different settings (similar to how 4e handled settings--there was basically 1-2 books each in dark sun, Eberron, FR...nothing in the other old settings like planescape/spelljammer/greyhawk.)
--Make low-ranked skill-training easier. I.E., have each skill rank cost more than the one before it, so you are better off focusing on a couple core skills and spreading out the rest. And so that it doesn't kill you to take 1 rank in something for fun.
--Eliminate rolling ability scores.
--Eliminate rolling hit-points.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Rules for pickling things (cucumbers etc)
Functional subsystem for rugby games
Chocobo Knight base class
Armored Spiker base class

If these ain't in, I'm throwing a fit on the forum.


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Gorbacz wrote:

Rules for pickling things (cucumbers etc)

Functional subsystem for rugby games
Chocobo Knight base class
Armored Spiker base class

If these ain't in, I'm throwing a fit on the forum.

I agree completely! There just isn't enough pickled rugby in Galorian!

If they added Rugby, they'd finally have something that monk could excel at!

Owner - House of Books and Games LLC

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I want a publication date in the far distant future.


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I hope they finally show a little love to the NPC classes. Most of the world's population would be in the NPC classes.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

Q: What would you like to see in Pathfinder 2.0?

A: A page that says "April Fool's", and PFRPG 1.0 Fiftieth printing April 2021.

Shadow Lodge

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Anguish wrote:

Q: What would you like to see in Pathfinder 2.0?

A: A page that says "April Fool's", and PFRPG 1.0 Fiftieth printing April 2021.

I shudder to even begin to imagine the bloat.


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scary harpy wrote:


I hope they finally show a little love to the NPC classes. Most of the world's population would be in the NPC classes.

Don't worry I am sure Ultimate NPC will be annouced soon.


In maybe 20-30 years time I guess I could stand to see pathfinder 2, but then it should be mostly the same game. Only with minor changes like making save or die spells instant death effects again, instead of the lame damage spells so many of them have become.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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I'd like to see magic item creation get removed from feats and just require a number of ranks in a skill like Craft Magic Item. 1 for scrolls, 3 for potions, 5 for wands, etc. etc.

Simply accept the Xmas Tree effect and grant WBL in items at each level up, with the ability to re-customize at each level. Then PCs don't need to track 321 gp, 24 pp, 1542 sps, 3276 cps, 1 gem at 16 gp, 1 gem at 543 gp, 1 gem at 32 gp, 1 gem at 1920 gp, an ivory comb at 34 gp, a pair of elven statues worth 520 and 482 gp, etc. etc.

Bonus traits or something at levels 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18 (the non-class dead levels). They can be used for character flavor, etc. Or new ways to use Hero Points, gain new high-level racial abilities, mutations, interesting scars, etc. etc.

Increase skill ranks per level by 2 to all PC classes. Add Constitution-based skills, like Concentration, Endurance, and Labor.

Make Saving Throws static like AC and CMD, and let casters/special ability users roll 1d20 + spell level/half hit dice + ability modifier just like attack rolls and skill checks, etc. etc. Crits would be max damage instead of double.

More partial effects on Save or Suck spells, like if you make a save against Charm Person, the DC to use Diplomacy on you is reduced by 5 or something.

Convert arcane spell failure to ai d20 check, like Concentration checks.

Convert % miss chances to a d20 check, maybe related to Perception or just plain Wisdom check.

Re-do firearm damage so they're like d20 Modern rules (2d3, 2d4, 2d6, 2d8, 2d10, 2d12) so we can use d20 Modern-like rules, like Double Tap, etc. etc. Definitely keep touch attack at 1st range increment--brilliant!

I'd kind of like a d20 Modern-like rule for Massive Damage rules (Con score instead of 50), but then A LOT of spells would have to be re-designed. Maybe just double Con Score?

Maybe a class-based defense system? Possibly based on Base Reflex Bonus?

I'd like attacks against flat-footed opponents to be automatic critical threats (that still need to be confirmed normally!). It would make surprise rounds a lot more exciting and dangerous--especially with
the change to Massive Damage Thresholds.

I'd like burning hands and magic missile to use d6s instead of d4s (I REALLY HATE d4s!!!!!!!--pet peeve).

EDIT:

Every character gets 2 feats at 1st level. Humans get 3.

Humans get 3 traits at 1st level.

Humans get 3 Hero Points per session, standard races get 2 Hero Points per session, and more powerful races get 1 per session.

Rules for encouraging multiclassing. For example, instead of getting a favored class bonus, you can choose a multiclass boon, like fractioanal BAB, stack class levels for Poor Saves (like Fighter 2/Rogue 1 would have +1 Will), or have 1/2 non-spellcasting levels add to caster level. Stuff like that.

d20 Modern-like Allegiance rules instead of alignment. Can still choose alignments and have alignment-based abilities and effects, there will just be more characters that are at least partially neutraal or morally ambiguous, which might even tap into the anti-hero/GRRM SOFAI zeitgeist.


I would like to see the class system more consistently consolidated, and better balanced. I think the cavalier class is a waste of ink, and if you divide his abilities evenly between the paladin and the fighter the game would just end up better. I like a fighter that gets 4+INT per level and can also use the Tactician ability, and still wear heavy armor. I also like the prospect of a mounted paladin build having the option of having his mount at 1st level so his feats aren't completely wasted less he have to choose between adventuring gear and/or a mount.

Classes like the swashbuckler, and cavalier can easily be made into fighter archetypes, which will function the exact same way as having the class playable, and will also prevent level dipping which is what most people would use a full class for anyway.

I think staple feats should be eliminated. If every martial character takes Power Attack, then what is the point in it being a feat? Could easily incorporate a lot of things like Power Attack and Combat Expertise into the mechanics of the game, rather than taxing characters, allowing for more options without having to invent more (eventually overpowered) options.

Lastly I wanna see a revised and consolidated skill system that makes skills not only matter, but allows more characters to have more utility.

The Exchange

Fighter option parity for martial classes. Not "POWERS" but rather ways a Fighter/Rogue etc can disrupt casters and allow for more thinking about cost/benefit in fights for everyone. I'd LOVE some KO options, and other uses of the CMD/CMB.

Streamlining of some of the bonuses in combat rolls.

Cut out some skills that don't get used.

Archtypes from the get go, at least 4 per class in the core book.

Witch in the core book. Hexes are too damn good.

Making the Stealth fix offical, including the moutned combat fixes.

Again, I'd rather just a revised and updatec core with tweeks.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
gbonehead wrote:
I want a publication date in the far distant future.

Took the words right out of my mouth.


SmiloDan wrote:

I'd like to see magic item creation get removed from feats and just require a number of ranks in a skill like Craft Magic Item. 1 for scrolls, 3 for potions, 5 for wands, etc. etc.

Simply accept the Xmas Tree effect and grant WBL in items at each level up, with the ability to re-customize at each level. Then PCs don't need to track 321 gp, 24 pp, 1542 sps, 3276 cps, 1 gem at 16 gp, 1 gem at 543 gp, 1 gem at 32 gp, 1 gem at 1920 gp, an ivory comb at 34 gp, a pair of elven statues worth 520 and 482 gp, etc. etc.

Bonus traits or something at levels 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18 (the non-class dead levels). They can be used for character flavor, etc. Or new ways to use Hero Points, gain new high-level racial abilities, mutations, interesting scars, etc. etc.

Increase skill ranks per level by 2 to all PC classes. Add Constitution-based skills, like Concentration, Endurance, and Labor.

Make Saving Throws static like AC and CMD, and let casters/special ability users roll 1d20 + spell level/half hit dice + ability modifier just like attack rolls and skill checks, etc. etc. Crits would be max damage instead of double.

More partial effects on Save or Suck spells, like if you make a save against Charm Person, the DC to use Diplomacy on you is reduced by 5 or something.

Convert arcane spell failure to ai d20 check, like Concentration checks.

Convert % miss chances to a d20 check, maybe related to Perception or just plain Wisdom check.

Re-do firearm damage so they're like d20 Modern rules (2d3, 2d4, 2d6, 2d8, 2d10, 2d12) so we can use d20 Modern-like rules, like Double Tap, etc. etc. Definitely keep touch attack at 1st range increment--brilliant!

I'd kind of like a d20 Modern-like rule for Massive Damage rules (Con score instead of 50), but then A LOT of spells would have to be re-designed. Maybe just double Con Score?

Maybe a class-based defense system? Possibly based on Base Reflex Bonus?

I'd like attacks against flat-footed opponents to be automatic critical threats (that still...

Wow, I don't think I've ever seen such a long post of suggestions in which I agree with all of them. You win!

The only thing I'm uncomfortable with in your list is the massive damage rule--my experience with it in 3.5 was that almost every attack would result in a massive damage saving throw, that everyone past a certain level could make on a natural 2, so combat turned into a game of don't-roll-a-natural-1 (the 3.0 ELH even calls this out). I like the idea of making it scale, but double constitution score is going to be even less than 50 most of the time.
That being said, I wouldn't really mind it as long as a natural 1 wasn't an instant failure (which is a rule I never agreed with and don't use--a natural 1 means you roll again and subtract 20 from your roll; a natural 20 means you roll again and add 20 to your roll).


I would like to see BAB and saving throws as a fixed number relative to your character level, not a fraction of your level. If "poor BAB" was always "level minus 3," for example. I suspect this would help mitigate higher level play's math problems.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

137ben wrote:
SmiloDan wrote:

I'd like to see magic item creation get removed from feats and just require a number of ranks in a skill like Craft Magic Item. 1 for scrolls, 3 for potions, 5 for wands, etc. etc.

Simply accept the Xmas Tree effect and grant WBL in items at each level up, with the ability to re-customize at each level. Then PCs don't need to track 321 gp, 24 pp, 1542 sps, 3276 cps, 1 gem at 16 gp, 1 gem at 543 gp, 1 gem at 32 gp, 1 gem at 1920 gp, an ivory comb at 34 gp, a pair of elven statues worth 520 and 482 gp, etc. etc.

Bonus traits or something at levels 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18 (the non-class dead levels). They can be used for character flavor, etc. Or new ways to use Hero Points, gain new high-level racial abilities, mutations, interesting scars, etc. etc.

Increase skill ranks per level by 2 to all PC classes. Add Constitution-based skills, like Concentration, Endurance, and Labor.

Make Saving Throws static like AC and CMD, and let casters/special ability users roll 1d20 + spell level/half hit dice + ability modifier just like attack rolls and skill checks, etc. etc. Crits would be max damage instead of double.

More partial effects on Save or Suck spells, like if you make a save against Charm Person, the DC to use Diplomacy on you is reduced by 5 or something.

Convert arcane spell failure to ai d20 check, like Concentration checks.

Convert % miss chances to a d20 check, maybe related to Perception or just plain Wisdom check.

Re-do firearm damage so they're like d20 Modern rules (2d3, 2d4, 2d6, 2d8, 2d10, 2d12) so we can use d20 Modern-like rules, like Double Tap, etc. etc. Definitely keep touch attack at 1st range increment--brilliant!

I'd kind of like a d20 Modern-like rule for Massive Damage rules (Con score instead of 50), but then A LOT of spells would have to be re-designed. Maybe just double Con Score?

Maybe a class-based defense system? Possibly based on Base Reflex Bonus?

I'd like attacks against flat-footed opponents to be automatic

...

Maybe Massive Damage can scale, like Con score + level?

And the save DC should scale some way too. Like 10 + CR of critter that hit you?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:
I would like to see BAB and saving throws as a fixed number relative to your character level, not a fraction of your level. If "poor BAB" was always "level minus 3," for example. I suspect this would help mitigate higher level play's math problems.

Then maybe you could have skill-based melee, skill-based ranged attacks, skill-based unarmed strikes, skill-based natural attacks, maybe even skill-based Fighter weapon groups. Ditto for saves. Skill-based Combat Maneuvers and CMD, etc. etc. :-)


I've toyed with making the DC for the massive damage save depend on how much damage you take. E.g. if you take more than CON+2*level, you must make a DC (10+damage taken - con score -2*level) fortitude save. It makes sense that you'd be more likely to die from taking 90238752903 damage than from taking 50 damage, after all.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Dang it, I only have 90238752902 hit points.

10 + damage - Con score - 2xlevel is a bit complex....

Maybe just DC = to half the damage damage? Especially with a MDT of double Con score.

Grand Lodge

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Actually it has not BEEN that long that I even want to start to think about them doing a 2nd iteration of the Pathfinder rules. Right now I think that it is going well and strong. There is no rules bloat and the suggestions I am seeing in this thread would not improve much other then to promote a lot of power creep in to the game for the most part. Not all suggestions were like that but some were.

If I were Paizo I would not even consider worrying about it for another 4 years. Then and ONLY then I would do it and improve upon the rules with a very well done play-testing like they did with the original rule set in the 1rst iteration.

WotC is putting editions out to fast in my opinion, in 13 year they are in p;ay test for their third edition of a rule set and in such a way that they went through major changes with each rule set. To the point where it is hurting them with their fan base. By putting editions out so fast their fan base gets angrier because they have to buy so many books. But the rate in which they put books out with the rules bloat they almost HAVE to put new editions out the way they have been. This is not to be an edition war but as a means to a comparison. Even D&D next there is a lot of controversy with it and their fan base. In playing both D&D and Pathfinder I have to say I am one of those fans that is upset.

I do not think that WotC is making the right decision here. Nor would I think that Paizo would be making a good decision if they put a new edition out to fast. I know I am in the minority on this thread but I think it is too soon. Besides this edition still has a lot to do for it before that happens. Right now there is no rules bloat and lots of fluff as well as a goodly amount of rules without it being over burdened but either. Paizo has struck a good balance... Here is for them to keep it going!!! :)

Shadow Lodge

Deanoth wrote:
Right now there is no rules bloat...

O.o

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I would also like a ruleset for jumping or climbing onto a much larger opponent. Probably something as easy as CMB vs CMD, maybe with some kind of Acrobatics or Climb check with a DC equal to CMD or CMD + 5 or 10 or something.

I don't think there is a lot of rules bloat, but there are a lot of non-Core options out there. And I like options. :-)

Grand Lodge

TOZ wrote:
Deanoth wrote:
Right now there is no rules bloat...
O.o

TOZ, It might SEEM like there is a lot of rules bloat. But what is Rules Bloat, by it's very definition it is an excessive amount or rules. The Core Rule book has 3 Monster books (with a 4th coming soon), The Core Rule Book, The APG, Ultimate Combat, Ultimate Magic and the NPC Codex as well as the Ultimate Equipment. These are RULE books only with little to no fluff in them. The Campaign series of books have SOME rules in them with almost 90% of these being fluff and a means to fill in the background of Golarion. The Companion line is about 80% fluff with background information for GM's to fill out their campaigns and to better understand th creatures they are running for their players.

While some deal with a rule set most of them are fairly generic with no specific setting in mind. Ultimate Campaign, and the Game Mastery Guide are both suggestions on helping the GM better improve his campaign and GMing style with some filled in rules that might need more clarification, like weather and the like.

I do not consider any of the above as rules bloat because there really are not that many rules in the splat books with either the companion line nor the campaign line of books. The Core Rule books when compared to the WotC line at the same time of their editions being out had 3x as many "rules" books out in both 3rd edition, 3.5 and 4th edition. That was rules bloat. Paizo has a decent balance going and they are doing it slowly. With the companion line and the campaign line of books being optional and not required to play... the GM has the option to not allow them either. While the same could be said for the WotC Editions, it is a lot more difficult as a GM to debate against the players case to include the rules in the campaign when the rules in question are Core books. Shall we talk about 3 Player Handbooks, 3 Dungeon Masters Guides and The Essentials line of books in as little as 5 years?? THe Essentials line almost rewriting the Players Handbook 1&2!! We will not talk about all the other core books that came out in the same time.

My definition of Rules bloat stands in my opinion. Whether it does not in yours... at least I hope you know where I am speaking from then. This is all my opinion and again not a slam on WotC and their Rules system as after all this rule set "came" from Dungeons and Dragons to begin with :)


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I would like to see NO Pathfinder 2.0.

You'll get the whole AD&D 1st vs 2e thing going on, and then the conversions for everything to and from.

Split the player base? No thanks.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Deanoth wrote:
TOZ wrote:
Deanoth wrote:
Right now there is no rules bloat...
O.o
TOZ, It might SEEM like there is a lot of rules bloat.

Yeah, but you say there is NO rules bloat. That kind of boggles the mind.

It ain't 3.5-one-hardcover-a-month, but it ain't zero either.

Grand Lodge

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Deanoth wrote:
TOZ wrote:
Deanoth wrote:
Right now there is no rules bloat...
O.o
TOZ, It might SEEM like there is a lot of rules bloat.

Yeah, but you say there is NO rules bloat. That kind of boggles the mind.

It ain't 3.5-one-hardcover-a-month, but it ain't zero either.

Again TOZ, Rules bloat is an excessive amount of rules and by THAT definition there is NO rules bloat. Read the entire post not just one excerpt. I explained of what I thought was "no" rules bloat and explained what I thought was.

Paizo has struck a happy blanace here with the rules and the timing of them coming out. They do have to put rules out. To keep some people happy but they are keeping it to a minimum and where as they are releasing only 1 major rule book a year. That is not excessive by any means. This is not the 4 times a year that other companies do. I do not want to see another edition for a long time yet. 10 years is a good time frame. We are not there yet. Though I am sure they have an idea of what they want to do when they DO put another edition out and I am sure they will play test it as well, like they did with the original Pathfinder release. Either way.. Paizo would be, in my humble opinion making a mistake if they put another edition out to early.. and 5-6 years is WAY to early to do so.

Still confused? Please reread my previous postings and that might clear it up better then.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Deanoth wrote:
Again TOZ, Rules bloat is an excessive amount of rules and by THAT definition there is NO rules bloat.

By that definition Pathfinder was bloated before it started. Just part of the territory with a rules-heavy game like the D20 system.

You can't make a definitive statement about rules bloat because it is a subjective standard. One mans bloat is another mans options.

Grand Lodge

TOZ again all I said... is opinion on my end as I mention in all my postings above. Pathfinder did NOT start out with rules bloat "because" the rules are all included IN the books provided for Pathfinder the system. So if you thought that the D20 rules were bloated, well I am not sure what to say to you further as it is a moot point and you will not agree with me at all.

But as I mentioned in my above postings this is my opinion and while you may not agree on that subject I do agree it is one of subjectivity and as such.. you might feel it is rules bloat right now... I am taking it you want a new edition out now or in the next year or two?

If so, why so fast?? Also, why don't you define what it is to have rules bloat according to your opinion? Explain it in detail please, as what books contribute to the bloat and why?

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Why would I want new rules if I already thought there were too many rules as it is?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
TOZ wrote:
Deanoth wrote:
Right now there is no rules bloat...
O.o

Compared to 3.5, Deanoth's statement is correct. There's a good range of additional rules to core, but so far it doesn't seem too much. Many things are entirely optional.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Well if being optional is enough to negate rules bloat no system ever gets bloated.

All of the 3.5 splats were optional.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Not in the way books like Ultimate Campaign are.

Hardcover splatbooks like Complete Warrior/Arcane/etc. for 3.5 or Ultimate Combat/Magic for Pathfinder are getting much more traction with the community, because they are full of new base classes, feats and spells. Those "core mechanics" are generally assumed to be more "legit" than introducing new sub-systems is.

In any case, argueing between people who hate new classes, feats and so on and people who like them is wasted time. There seems to be a vast gulf between those two viewpoints and I've yet to see any agreement where the "sweet zone" of expansion to the core rules is. Hell, seems like the majority of "bloat is bad" people would like "core rules only" to be the paradigma for Pathfinder, which just seems unrealistic from an economic point of view.


Honestly, I'd like to see Paizo do something different with Pathfinder 2. None of this "New system! Now you have to buy all the books again!" BS. Maybe they could create a hardcover "rules patch" book that addresses (and converts) the problems with various classes, systems, and rules that exist in the current pathfinder. Now, this is just an idea. I acknowledge that it may not be feasible, so don't go jumping down my throat.

In more detail, I'd just like fixing of the wonky bits. Remove the SAD awesomeness of casters (like associating each attribute with specific spells and abilities), and give melee attackers a bit more mobility (though I wouldn't want a complete removal of the full round action).


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1) Butcher all of WotC's and TSR's sacred cows.
2) Actually think through the math.
3) Abandon the CMB/CMD system. It fails miserably against small creatures with high touch AC.
4) Balance feat and spell value.

Grand Lodge

TriOmegaZero wrote:

Well if being optional is enough to negate rules bloat no system ever gets bloated.

All of the 3.5 splats were optional.

I know we will NOT agree about what is bloat and what is optional type of thing. With that being said I want to clarify a thing or two. The 3.5 splat books were all rules for the most part.

My idea of the Campaign books and the Companion books from the Pathfinder line is more fluff about the campaign and relevant information for the player/gm to run their or campaign better respectively. These are optional... the 3.5 books are core rules and arguably less optional and more required. Again this is MY opinion for what it is worth. I am not trying to start a debate but more or less explaining my reasoning.

So far I have explained my reasoning but you have not answered my questions yet or explained yourself other then a line or two of text. Which does more to cause an argument/debate then to explain the reasoning behind it cohesively.

If you do not want a 2nd edition what is it YOU want? What do you think would be the stopping point for the current edition and what would be considered bloat if is not at that point already? Explain in detail please and the reasoning behind your explanation.

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