Talk me down off the ledge... I'm losing hope in PFS and I don't want to


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Liberty's Edge

First, thanks again SCPRedMage - as I was reading the Guide I saw the line "no PC can play at a subtier more than 1 step away from her character level." and misunderstood it. I can see no that if I have a level 4 character in a 1-7 scenario, no subtier is more than 1 step away, just as 3-4 is only 1 step away for a level 6-7.

As for character effectiveness, I certainly don't rely on this for advanced progression, but I cross-check my starting stats and abilities against Paizo's pregens for all my new characters. Paizo's 1st level pregens are generally effective characters. They become less so at higher levels, but I figure if my stats are roughly in line I can use feats and gear to work things out later on.

And even though I haven't gone over 17 on a starting stat, my main class stat is always a 16 or 17 (i.e. 16 DEX for my ranger and rogue, 17 INT for my wizard). I always plan to bump certain stats at 4th and 8th level (even 12th, if I ever get there in PFS). Plus, I expect to buy a belt or headband laterinthe game to boost my key stats too.

Feats can be confusing, though. There are a lot of feats that are misunderstood or misued. In general, I think that we should help each other other out. A player may not understand when Cleave is even useful, or how important Combat Casting can be.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
David Bowles wrote:

Not sure about 16 STR rangers. Switch hitter builds usually have a bit more STR than DEX. Nothing wrong there. Depends on his feats and the rest of his stats really.

Any PC with 10 CON or less is really taking a huge gamble. Again, this goes back to whether it's a jerk move to bring a glass-jawed PC to the table. Myself, I find its always worthwhile to put the 2 build points in for a 12 CON. And then usually favored class as well.

4 points if you're a race with the con penalty.

Silver Crusade

5 points. I know, because my magus had to cough it up.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Sadly, when you're the only one in melee with the stone guardian....

You've already made a bit of a tactical blunder here... :-)

Silver Crusade

There's no guarantee that the NPCs will automatically attack the most heavily armoured PC. Especially if the NPC are ranged or have acrobatics or the like. The more capabilities the NPCs have, the more they can reach out and touch whomever they like.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

That's the thing about being the trapfinder, you're the first one to enter the room and activate the guardian. :P

(But in this case, tumbling around to set up a flank was a bad decision as well.)

Silver Crusade

TriOmegaZero wrote:
That's the thing about being the trapfinder, you're the first one to enter the room and activate the guardian. :P

There's that, too.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Funky Badger wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Sadly, when you're the only one in melee with the stone guardian....
You've already made a bit of a tactical blunder here... :-)

Fighter attacks.

Stone whallops fighter

Rogue moves to flank, sneak attack! yay finally!

Fighter looks at hit points left, withdraws

Rogue needs new undies.

No tactical blunder necessary.


Derek Weil wrote:
A player may not understand when Cleave is even useful, or how important Combat Casting can be.

Not very, I would say... :-)

Liberty's Edge

Funky Badger wrote:
Derek Weil wrote:
A player may not understand when Cleave is even useful, or how important Combat Casting can be.
Not very, I would say... :-)

Right. Casting defensively is something that, IMO, you should always avoid at almost any cost.

By the by, what Feats would you take on a 1st level wizard? I'm playing my first and having a tough time choosing. He's human so I get two. I can move this to advice if it's too much of a tangent.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Derek Weil wrote:
By the by, what Feats would you take on a 1st level wizard? I'm playing my first and having a tough time choosing. He's human so I get two. I can move this to advice if it's too much of a tangent.

Toughness and Improved Initiative. You won't regret them.

Silver Crusade

Come visit us in Chicago. Lots of games at lots of tiers, with lots of different playing styles.


Derek Weil wrote:
Funky Badger wrote:
Derek Weil wrote:
A player may not understand when Cleave is even useful, or how important Combat Casting can be.
Not very, I would say... :-)

Right. Casting defensively is something that, IMO, you should always avoid at almost any cost.

By the by, what Feats would you take on a 1st level wizard? I'm playing my first and having a tough time choosing. He's human so I get two. I can move this to advice if it's too much of a tangent.

I always find feats for full spelccasters a bit of an afterthought - Improved Initiative is always good, a Spell Focus or two wouldn't hurt... there are all kinds of stunts you can do with Spell Mastery and the like, but I don't tend to play spellcasters along those lines (e.g. felxability > specialisation)...


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Funky Badger wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Sadly, when you're the only one in melee with the stone guardian....
You've already made a bit of a tactical blunder here... :-)

Fighter attacks.

Stone whallops fighter

Rogue moves to flank, sneak attack! yay finally!

Fighter looks at hit points left, withdraws

Rogue needs new undies.

No tactical blunder necessary.

:-)

You need better fighters (strategy, not tactics...)


Jiggy wrote:
Derek Weil wrote:
By the by, what Feats would you take on a 1st level wizard? I'm playing my first and having a tough time choosing. He's human so I get two. I can move this to advice if it's too much of a tangent.
Toughness and Improved Initiative. You won't regret them.

Toughness?

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Well given that most of my characters more and more are "I'll stand WAYYYYY back here, and buff." I guess I'm pretty ineffective. ;-)

(Fun fact, it wasn't until 7th level that Dexios hit anything with his katana, before that it was the spiritual weapon katana that I rolled well with.)

Grand Lodge

All I can offer is to suggest you come to Boston. Specifically to Pandemonium - the venue that Rogue Eidolon and Marie1 run PFS at - and play in the tier 5-9 and 7-11 tables.

A good number of the players and GMs really know their stuff and are seriously committed to the game. This also applies to the other venues in the metro Boston area as they are the same folks.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Funky Badger wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Derek Weil wrote:
By the by, what Feats would you take on a 1st level wizard? I'm playing my first and having a tough time choosing. He's human so I get two. I can move this to advice if it's too much of a tangent.
Toughness and Improved Initiative. You won't regret them.
Toughness?

Toughness.

2/5

Tanath wrote:
1. Most players are really, really bad.

That’s just the way it is. Maybe no one spent time educating the players. Maybe the play level is so low in the community, no one knows any better. Maybe they like it that way. Maybe it’s the best they can do. You just have to accept it or keep looking for other options.

You said you go to conventions, but my experience at conventions hasn’t been yours. Most players are somewhat competent. Also, it gets better as you break into level 6+, the players are much better (at least mechanically).

Here’s the bad news, most GMs and players don’t attempt to roleplay. Find people that like it.

Tanath wrote:
2. It's impossible to find one anything higher than 3-7

They’re bad, so when you’re not there they probably die, so they can’t get through tier 1-5. Also, things get harder at level 6+, they might not like it!

You go to conventions so you level PCs with these other groups and have an army of PCs for high level play at conventions.

Tanath wrote:
3. You can't ever play up

You don’t really get to choose to play up anymore, it’s decided for you depending on the season, your APL, and number of players.

Now you don’t have to deal with those annoying GMs that force everyone to play down when one PC wants to play down, choice has been eliminated. << Love it.

Tanath wrote:
4. People like me are despised

Find like-minded people to play with. Sometimes it takes time.

Also, you don’t need to play your PC at 100%. If you’re playing down, maybe you’re a 2H fighter. Instead of using the polearm, using a longsword instead. You’re still doing damage, just not as much. And then you let everyone have a turn. If things get bad, pull out the big guns.

Btw, I haven’t found any of the problems listed a problem at conventions.

Tanath wrote:
5. It's not the geo.

Yes, yes it is.

I find it highly unlikely that if you’re playing a level 6+ PC at Gencon that you experience all of these problems. The players are generally good at that level. You can play any tier you like. People almost always want to play up (and now there’s no choice). No one cares if you destroy the Care Baird in one round.

Scarab Sages

Derek Weil wrote:


By the by, what Feats would you take on a 1st level wizard? I'm playing my first and having a tough time choosing. He's human so I get two. I can move this to advice if it's too much of a tangent.

Tribal Scars and Toughness are two good 1st level human wizard feats ;)

And actually while Nimble Moves is usually not favored as too weak (first 5 feet of difficult terrain you can ignore - so you can always take a 5 foot step in difficult terrain.

And another 'crazy' human wizard feat I would suggest is Blind fighting - being able to move full speed in darkness, and NOT being able to be melee snuck attacked in darkness is an important thing for someone who can't see in darkness.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Jiggy wrote:
Funky Badger wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Derek Weil wrote:
By the by, what Feats would you take on a 1st level wizard? I'm playing my first and having a tough time choosing. He's human so I get two. I can move this to advice if it's too much of a tangent.
Toughness and Improved Initiative. You won't regret them.
Toughness?
Toughness.

Toughness!

5/5

Don Walker wrote:

All I can offer is to suggest you come to Boston. Specifically to Pandemonium - the venue that Rogue Eidolon and Marie1 run PFS at - and play in the tier 5-9 and 7-11 tables.

A good number of the players and GMs really know their stuff and are seriously committed to the game. This also applies to the other venues in the metro Boston area as they are the same folks.

I was also going to suggest Boston to the OP. Marie1, Don, and I worked hard and struggled to build the Pandemonium venue up from 1 tiny table per week to 4-5 per week and a guaranteed 5-9 or 7-11 nearly every week (except when we run a super-new 3-7 that we expect the veterans will all want to play).


Hey tanath!

While I can't speak directly to your experience, as I don't play PFS, but just straight PF, I feel our experiences share a lot of commonalities, and I'd like to weigh in.

Primarily, I'd like to share your frustration with other players. I'm 23 years old and my primary gaming group involves my father and a bunch of his gaming buddies that he's played with a long time. I've known a lot of these guys since I was about 8 years old, so we have a pretty good comraderie in the group. What strikes me, however, is that we have three types of players in the group, and it can get pretty frustrating for me. We have a pretty large group, 8 people when everyone shows up, but usually we have at least 2 missing for one reason or another.

Firstly, we have the group of what you would call "Decent" players, people who know the mechanics, play at least well if not optimizing, and who try and roleplay their characters whenever possible. We have three people (myself included) who play like this consistently, and then we have one who enters this realm sparingly, but usually falls into the second group. The second group being characters who like to roleplay, and do it well, but don't bother to learn the rules and mechanics. There are three of these in the group, including the one previously mentioned, but I give one of them a pass because he's knew to tabletop RPGs. Lastly, we have two people who simply don't do either. They don't bother to RP in any capacity, they don't bother to learn the mechanics, and they just generally drag the group down.

Now, the main reason this truly begins to irritate me is because of the extreme burden of knowledge this places on my shoulders. The group treats me like a living rulebook/encyclopedia. While I don't mind being a resource for my other players, it does get extremely stressful when I essentially need to learn every character at the table inside and out. What's more, is that on the few times when I get something wrong, I'm often made fun of because of it, and because I'm so much younger than most of the group.

I've started learning to play a self-sufficient character, so that if the party fails, my character can escape and live on.


Lamontius wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Funky Badger wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Derek Weil wrote:
By the by, what Feats would you take on a 1st level wizard? I'm playing my first and having a tough time choosing. He's human so I get two. I can move this to advice if it's too much of a tangent.
Toughness and Improved Initiative. You won't regret them.
Toughness?
Toughness.
Toughness!

Hmmm, toughness.

Scarab Sages

If you come to Atlanta, GA are - and don't mind driving you could play PFS every weekend. If you do mind driving - well Atlanta is not a good place to live.

http://www.georgiapfs.org/forum/

And every Labor Day weekend there is a convention in town which is not about gaming, but they do a few hundred tables of gaming each year - just book your hotel in advance - most downtown hotels sold out by October 2012 for DragonCon 2013 (some sold out in less than an hour).

Grand Lodge

David Bowles wrote:


Healing sink: a concept that dates back to Everquest MMORPG. An easy to hit/damage PC that is always having to be healed, and so runs the healer out of resources prematurely.

Seen this happen many a times mostly with Barbarian PCs with ungodly hps. Rage, lose a ton of hps, exhaust the cleric. Rinse, repeat per encounter.


I never really found Improved Init all that useful...I mean I'm not saying it's bad, but whenever I had a character with it I always think, "Man, there's a different feat that I'd much rather have right now." Plus it doesn't help when you inevitably roll crappy init, as my gunslinger and alchemist have found with their high init mods.


FanaticRat wrote:
I never really found Improved Init all that useful...I mean I'm not saying it's bad, but whenever I had a character with it I always think, "Man, there's a different feat that I'd much rather have right now." Plus it doesn't help when you inevitably roll crappy init, as my gunslinger and alchemist have found with their high init mods.

I think initiative becomes more important as you get higher up in levels, and over a longer period of time bad rolls even them selves out.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Improved init is useful for casters.

a) save or suck caster can end a fight quickly*

b) Buffing casters can get their spells off to aid party members so everyone gets the benefit when they go.

*

Spoiler:
Some might find this a pain, if you have solo foes or your caster spams save or suck.

Dark Archive 4/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Upper Midwest aka Silbeg

Lamontius wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Funky Badger wrote:
Jiggy wrote:
Derek Weil wrote:
By the by, what Feats would you take on a 1st level wizard? I'm playing my first and having a tough time choosing. He's human so I get two. I can move this to advice if it's too much of a tangent.
Toughness and Improved Initiative. You won't regret them.
Toughness?
Toughness.
Toughness!

I have to agree! In fact, my first build for Angelo Gaius Cassius Fiero had Toughness (as his ONLY feat), a 12 CON, and a Toad familiar (+3 hp). So, he was a Wizard with 13hp at 1st level!

Which was good, because when he got flanked by a pair of bandits, with the Precise Strike teamwork feat, and BOTH hit... he was just unconscious, instead of DEAD.

I did decide later that I really didn't want to bother with a familiar (originally was planning on getting him Reddiwhipple, but changed my mind), I retrained away the familiar (to get an Arcane Bond) with my level 1 free retrain.

So, yes.

Toughness!

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I was in an 8-9 once and the party's wizard had an "OH CRAP" moment while standing in the back as the party faced an advanced bulette when a second one popped up from behind and shredded her with four claw attacks. Took her from full HP to somewhere in the neighborhood of 5.

Dunno whether she had Toughness or not, but that's certainly the type of situation that makes me want it for MY caster(s)!

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Jiggy wrote:

I was in an 8-9 once and the party's wizard had an "OH CRAP" moment while standing in the back as the party faced an advanced bulette when a second one popped up from behind and shredded her with four claw attacks. Took her from full HP to somewhere in the neighborhood of 5.

Dunno whether she had Toughness or not, but that's certainly the type of situation that makes me want it for MY caster(s)!

Hey, the same thing happened with our slumber-happy witch when I played it, except he went unconscious. Then he got upset when I waited for the fighters to engage before I woke him up.

Lantern Lodge 5/5

Jiggy wrote:

I was in an 8-9 once and the party's wizard had an "OH CRAP" moment while standing in the back as the party faced an advanced bulette when a second one popped up from behind and shredded her with four claw attacks. Took her from full HP to somewhere in the neighborhood of 5.

Dunno whether she had Toughness or not, but that's certainly the type of situation that makes me want it for MY caster(s)!

Heh, I can't wait to run that battle for my group... partially for that oh crap! challenge moments :)

To agree with Jiggy, yes, Toughness is good for low HD casters. Saved my level 1 wizard from death to a coup de grace (managed to roll a Nat 20 on a 19 damage crit, but without Toughness and a 12 Con, would have died outright!


Matthew Morris wrote:

Improved init is useful for casters.

a) save or suck caster can end a fight quickly*

b) Buffing casters can get their spells off to aid party members so everyone gets the benefit when they go.

*** spoiler omitted **

Eh, I play a full caster. In the 7-8 and 8-9 games I've played, the other characters tend to kill everything before I can get most of my spells up anyway. It's just too long a buffing routine (Prayer, Blessing of Fervor, Bless, then if I'm lucky I get to summon an undead or use Fear or sprout wings, if I'm not having to use Dispel Magic or Invisibility Purge). Stuff is just over far too quickly.

I think we've gotten off topic.


Jiggy wrote:

I was in an 8-9 once and the party's wizard had an "OH CRAP" moment while standing in the back as the party faced an advanced bulette when a second one popped up from behind and shredded her with four claw attacks. Took her from full HP to somewhere in the neighborhood of 5.

Dunno whether she had Toughness or not, but that's certainly the type of situation that makes me want it for MY caster(s)!

Think I just played that adventure, but surely that's what Emergency Force Field is for?

Toughness: saving unprepared wizard's behinds since 1995.

:-)


Matthew Morris wrote:

Well given that most of my characters more and more are "I'll stand WAYYYYY back here, and buff." I guess I'm pretty ineffective. ;-)

(Fun fact, it wasn't until 7th level that Dexios hit anything with his katana, before that it was the spiritual weapon katana that I rolled well with.)

It's not that this is a bad character type, it's the fact that it's an overwhelmingly popular character type. That's where the problems come in.

The example of the Con 10 rogue illustrates this too. "When you're the ONLY ONE in melee with a stone guardian..." well, sure the rogue's gonna die. Because he's the only one in melee, and he's not supposed to be.

I see this a lot in PFS games. The whole party consists of casters and archers, and if one person shows up with ANY melee capacity at all--be it rogue, monk, or barbarian, or even bard--they are cheerfully shoved to the front with the label "tank" slapped on them. And everyone breathes a sigh of relief because now they don't have to worry about actually coming into direct contact with the baddies.

Never mind that the rogue/barbarian/bard/monk isn't built to be a solo tank... he's the only melee character who showed up.

The lack of players willing to be frontline fighters is becoming a bigger and bigger issue over time, in my experience. As I commented in frustration to a recent group, "You can't have EVERYONE stand in the back! What will they be in back of?"

Silver Crusade

My last three PCs have all had toughness or will have taken it: dwarf fighter, elf lorewarden/rogue and the GM baby summoner I'm working on. It's just a really solid feat, because more hps are almost always useful. Oh yeah, and my level 9 cleric grabbed it at level 7. So 4/6 of my PCs have it.

There is usually something useful a full spell caster can use their feats for. This can be the difference between a good caster and an excellent caster.


Calybos1 wrote:
Matthew Morris wrote:

Well given that most of my characters more and more are "I'll stand WAYYYYY back here, and buff." I guess I'm pretty ineffective. ;-)

(Fun fact, it wasn't until 7th level that Dexios hit anything with his katana, before that it was the spiritual weapon katana that I rolled well with.)

It's not that this is a bad character type, it's the fact that it's an overwhelmingly popular character type. That's where the problems come in.

The example of the Con 10 rogue illustrates this too. "When you're the ONLY ONE in melee with a stone guardian..." well, sure the rogue's gonna die. Because he's the only one in melee, and he's not supposed to be.

I see this a lot in PFS games. The whole party consists of casters and archers, and if one person shows up with ANY melee capacity at all--be it rogue, monk, or barbarian, or even bard--they are cheerfully shoved to the front with the label "tank" slapped on them. And everyone breathes a sigh of relief because now they don't have to worry about actually coming into direct contact with the baddies.

Never mind that the rogue/barbarian/bard/monk isn't built to be a solo tank... he's the only melee character who showed up.

The lack of players willing to be frontline fighters is becoming a bigger and bigger issue over time, in my experience. As I commented in frustration to a recent group, "You can't have EVERYONE stand in the back! What will they be in back of?"

Yet moar evidence that archers are sucking the fun out of everything.

Who would even want to play, you don't even have to move your mini about on the battlemat, just say 12, 14, 11 every 3 minutes or so (at higher levels this becomes 20, 18, 18, 21, 17 every 8 minutes).

Silver Crusade

Archers aren't so hot when GMs enforce shooting into melee *and* cover rules. Archers are very feat intensive and only the Zen archer and ranger can get improved precise before level 11 to my knowledge.


Still, playing an archer = Easy Mode

Player a Zen Archer = Easy Mode plus Stabalisers

;-)


David Bowles wrote:

My last three PCs have all had toughness or will have taken it: dwarf fighter, elf lorewarden/rogue and the GM baby summoner I'm working on. It's just a really solid feat, because more hps are almost always useful. Oh yeah, and my level 9 cleric grabbed it at level 7. So 4/6 of my PCs have it.

There is usually something useful a full spell caster can use their feats for. This can be the difference between a good caster and an excellent caster.

Always thought this came down to spell selections rather than feats, but every little helps...

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Wow, really? In my area, I've encountered maybe 4-5 archers in over two years of play. Meanwhile, it's a semi-common issue to have so many melee characters that battlefields get clogged, frustrating any charge-based or AoE characters the table might have.

I've played/GM'd far more tables with >50% melee than with a bunch of back-row types huddled behind a bard or rogue or whatever.

Yet another regional thing, I suppose.

Scarab Sages

David Bowles wrote:

My last three PCs have all had toughness or will have taken it: dwarf fighter, elf lorewarden/rogue and the GM baby summoner I'm working on. It's just a really solid feat, because more hps are almost always useful. Oh yeah, and my level 9 cleric grabbed it at level 7. So 4/6 of my PCs have it.

There is usually something useful a full spell caster can use their feats for. This can be the difference between a good caster and an excellent caster.

But now you have two options to obtain some extra health. Toughness and Tribal Scars. Sure, Tribal Scars starts/caps at 6 HP, but you get some neat perks to which clan you join. Raptorscale is always nice with the extra 5 movement speed.

Silver Crusade

Funky Badger wrote:
David Bowles wrote:

My last three PCs have all had toughness or will have taken it: dwarf fighter, elf lorewarden/rogue and the GM baby summoner I'm working on. It's just a really solid feat, because more hps are almost always useful. Oh yeah, and my level 9 cleric grabbed it at level 7. So 4/6 of my PCs have it.

There is usually something useful a full spell caster can use their feats for. This can be the difference between a good caster and an excellent caster.

Always thought this came down to spell selections rather than feats, but every little helps...

Well. It really depends. My cleric has the feat to be back up melee if the situation arises. Like a 4 person table with 3 flesh golems. And one member is a squishy sorcerer who can't affect them at all. Time to get out the adamantine hammer +1, buff a round or two, and start pounding! If only I had built for quicken channel!

As far as archers go, I self-enforce the cover rules since most GMs don't remember or don't bother. As a result, my archer is frequently outdamaged by all kinds of builds. So I fail to see how this is easy mode. Plus, I don't have any feats to spare for toughness or anything like that. So archers really can't afford for things to go wrong in many cases.

Sovereign Court 5/5 RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

For your casters Dave, don't forget false life if they can get it. I pretty much reserve a mage armor and a false life for Ksenia, plus a level 1 pearl of power (and soon a level 2!) PoP for dispel annoyances.

As to stand in the back, Mayim is an Arcane Duelist, so she should be up front, dancing and slashing the day away*. It just so happens the last couple times I've player her, we were melee intensive (and high level staffed) so she would keep the song going, and bladed dash when needed.

Both of my girls also have a con of 14, so that helps :-)

I do agree the archer builds do rely on feats or 'forgetting' cover rules.

*

Spoiler:
She does other things at night.


Jiggy wrote:

Wow, really? In my area, I've encountered maybe 4-5 archers in over two years of play. Meanwhile, it's a semi-common issue to have so many melee characters that battlefields get clogged, frustrating any charge-based or AoE characters the table might have.

I've played/GM'd far more tables with >50% melee than with a bunch of back-row types huddled behind a bard or rogue or whatever.

Yet another regional thing, I suppose.

Interesting, I tend to see the opposite. In a group I play in, with 8 players, we have only 3 melee (one being me, the rogue, who usually doesn't engage unless I can flank.), and everyone else is long ranged types that run away if anything escapes our Barbarian. In a group I run, I have a Cleric, Wizard, Gunslinger and Monk, so a pretty even split of melee (the cleric being a tanky healer) and ranged. So overall, I usually see an even split of melee to ranged, or a greater number of ranged.


David Bowles wrote:


As far as archers go, I self-enforce the cover rules since most GMs don't remember or don't bother. As a result, my archer is frequently outdamaged by all kinds of builds. So I fail to see how this is easy mode. Plus, I don't have any feats to spare for toughness or anything like that. So archers really can't afford for things to go wrong in many cases.

Archer's don't have to worry about/focus on tactical movement or physical defences - 2 things most other fighters need to be concerned with. They also get more attacks per round than other fighters.

:-)

Silver Crusade

Yes, archers need some physical defenses. Because things do go wrong, and there is not threat mechanism in Pathfinder. Archery is strong, I'll give you that, but it's not as fearsome as you may think when all the rules are in play. Indoor scenarios can be quite hard on archers.

Also, archers are quite vulnerable to sunder.


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You throw a lot of different issues together here. Although I have faced some of these issues, usually related to new players, It sounds like some of the problem may be related to your expectations and play style.

1. There is no relation between "roleplay" and "role" play. There are plenty of great players out there who never dress up or pretend to have accents. I have met plenty of barbarians that hit plenty hard but never spoke in "barbarian" speak. If a person does not do both in your eyes they are a bad player. That is a you problem.

2. You say right in your post that you are playing a 7th level character at 3rd and 4th level tables and are surprised that no one seems to be as effective as you. I know this can't be avoided sometimes the only 3-7 table available is as you describe but you can't be shocked that a 7th level character is more effective than a 3rd or 4th level character. Of course it is and that does not mean the players of the lower level characters are bad players!

3. PFS is not designed for super-optimized characters, although that seems to be changing some with the new more challenging scenarios. PFS is in part a feeder to get new players into the game. People like yourself that have been around since living greyhawk are going to be more skilled than most.

Grand Lodge 4/5

TriOmegaZero wrote:
I don't know about the ranger, but every 10 Con ninja/rogue I've come across has died in short order.

10 con isn't bad...it's when you have 10 con, a melee rogue AND have 14 dex while refusing to use only leather armor that your just asking for it.

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