Goblin Squad Member
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As details emerge about EQNext, I'm fascinated by complementary but distinct conceptual approaches to fixing the current broken model for MMO development.
John Smedley said this about EQNext, clearly channeling Ryan
What we are building is something that we will be very proud to call EverQuest. It will be the largest sandbox-style MMO ever designed. The same exciting content delivered in a new way. Something you've never seen before. The MMO world has never seen before. We didn't want more kill 10 rats quests. We didn't want more of the same. If you look at the MMOs out there, they're delivering the same content over and over again. So are we. We need to change that. When we released EverQuest, we changed the world. We want to do that again with a different type of game.
But his path (along with Brad McQuaid) to this end is almost diametrically opposed to GW's.
In a very abbreviated nutshell, the PFO approach to the problem of canned content and the new content creation cycle is to have the players' interactions be the content, an essentially PvP approach (although it includes PvE elements).
The EQnext approach is using computational advances to replace human labor in creating new content, in this case through dynamic procedural terrain generation and dynamic AI ecologies, through StoryBricks and Voxel Farms.
I can see both approaches being viable, and it will be interesting to see how it plays out.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It may be a very important developmental milestone in online game design if two design teams pursue diametrically opposed approaches to the same problem. I'll be very interested to learn whether the dynamic between thesis and antithesis ultimately generates a new synthesis somewhere down the road.
It reminds me of the setting of a subplot in Gibson's 'Idoru' where people in the world, usually young people, build their own virtual environments to populate.
The EQnext approach is using computational advances to replace human labor in creating new content, in this case through dynamic procedural terrain generation and dynamic AI ecologies, through StoryBricks and Voxel Farms.
I don't know much about EQNext but the game you describe doesn't seem like a sandbox game. If the majority of what you do is created by the developers then it's a themepark. Just because it's easier to produce content or you have more of it doesn't fundamentally change what the game is. Many games have claimed to be different for quite some time, and all tend to be the same thing but with improvements to how it is delivered... or simply how well they hide what the game really is.
It'll be a superior themepark most likely, since the primary downside to a themepark game is that you run out of content at some point. However, a sandbox game can produce infinite content as well through the players and that content is going to be superior since it is organic. When I play a themepark though, I do so because I believe the developers can create content that I'll enjoy. If the procedurely generated content isn't on par, then it's not an improvement. It's simply changing quality for quantity. If the game has both then it'll probably be the best themepark MMO to date.
As an aside, I noticed this:
John Smedley said this about EQNext, clearly channeling Ryan
What we are building is something that we will be very proud to call EverQuest. It will be the largest sandbox-style MMO ever designed.The same exciting content delivered in a new way. Something you've never seen before. The MMO world has never seen before. We didn't want more kill 10 rats quests. We didn't want more of the same. If you look at the MMOs out there, they're delivering the same content over and over again. So are we. We need to change that. When we released EverQuest, we changed the world. We want to do that again with a different type of game.
We're giving you the same content, because we didn't want more of the same, except we realized we were giving you more of the same, so we're going to change that by giving you the same.
My mind is blown.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Oh I think EQ:N is a sandbox but more a themepark with a sandbox wrapped around it.
Landmark certainly is creative. It's real estate buying and making and selling. Again you can buy a flag to mark a safe plot of land and then obviously do stuff there. Items perhaps will be breakable and knock more voxels out or less so crafters will likely fit into those slots I guess.
Cracks in the ground show where you can delve, and possibly uber dungeons will go deepest etc. It's seamless. For stories they'll use instances. Big mob invasions might be server wide calls or whatever it's called a bit like LOTR armies charging around assaulting player created walled castles and so on.
Players will collect over 40 classes ala lol it seems also. There's parkour movement possibly to go with the z-axis dynamic as well as help with pathfinding? Facial expressions and more.
I'm sure it will be hugely popular not least because it provides so much more than just combat of wow and minecraft-style ;) gameplay with a ton of servers doing various things.
It's more interacting with objects. I think PFO is essentially interacting with players, but both are sandboxy. Though I think virtual world is the attempt PFO goes for for the mmorpg vision. EQ:N may mutate into lots of various sub-game types:
- Making and selling objects
- Playing PvE stuff in a sandboxy world of construction/destruction
- PvP sub-games
- More variety
The leap in tech makes me thing, it will be a big success. If Shokrizade is right about real estate, then the F2P model might turn out really lucrative. Being the first minecraft-style mmorpg, it may turn out well for them.
/Bit of fun speculation.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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For me, EQN is only a sandbox MMO if players can make meaningful persistent changes to the game world inhabited by, and impacting on, a very large number of other players.
My sense from what I've seen so far is that EQN is going to be a hub & spoke game where most of the content is instanced, or private game spaces.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The ability do destroy the environment is cute but I don't see the big deal - it's not permanent as shown by the video clips from the unveiling presentation. If it was, the world would soon look like a parking lot. It is like the blood splatter or the scorched effect remaining on the ground for a short while after hitting/burning an enemy in other games, only more advanced.
Bash your way down to a sublevel - much like finding the right tube in Super Mario that will get you to the underworld. The experience in the underworld will be pretty much like above ground (PvE mobs and such) but with rock & lava environments.
NPCs will migrate - does it matter where the orcs hang out? They said themselves that no matter where they set up shop they will keep doing the same thing: harrassing travellers.
Procedurally generated quests and underworld maps - is the problem with MMOs really that you eventually run out of 'similar but not identical' PvE quests and new areas?
For me personally, none of the 'holy grails' of EQ:next make my heart pump faster.
The upcoming MMOs that interest me are Repopulation, PFO and Face of Mankind: Fall of the Dominion and they all have one thing in common: player-run groups competing for resources, land and political/martial influence.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The ability do destroy the environment is cute but I don't see the big deal - it's not permanent as shown by the video clips from the unveiling presentation. If it was, the world would soon look like a parking lot. It is like the blood splatter or the scorched effect remaining on the ground for a short while after hitting/burning an enemy in other games, only more advanced.
Bash your way down to a sublevel - much like finding the right tube in Super Mario that will get you to the underworld. The experience in the underworld will be pretty much like above ground (PvE mobs and such) but with rock & lava environments.
NPCs will migrate - does it matter where the orcs hang out? They said themselves that no matter where they set up shop they will keep doing the same thing: harrassing travellers.
Procedurally generated quests and underworld maps - is the problem with MMOs really that you eventually run out of 'similar but not identical' PvE quests and new areas?
For me personally, none of the 'holy grails' of EQ:next make my heart pump faster.
The upcoming MMOs that interest me are Repopulation, PFO and Face of Mankind: Fall of the Dominion and they all have one thing in common: player-run groups competing for resources, land and political/martial influence.
I do think the voxels will go down a storm when we see more of how they are put to use, by players in a big way. Eg when players build stuff that makes it into the game for one very easy eg to imagine how impressive that will be? The layers ala minecraft is very clever for exploration "new territory" too. Makes the game world feel all around instead of stuck in a box. I'm not sure about the AI. I think it could be a lot better PvE content and in particular moving away from the "aggro" problem that's been discussed in these forums; could really make the combat a lot cooler in PvE and perhaps bigger scaled battles of mobs coordinated? So good for PvE.
But, I find myself mentally categorizing "who's feeling the competition heat up from Sony" by the EQ:N reveal and it seems to me more the bigger AAA mmorpg titles upcoming as a reaction to the info we have. Probably disrespectful to name names, but as above mentioned (PFO, Repopulation etc), those smaller niche, different audience, different emphasis of game design, I don't see as being impacted very much by EQ:N, which suggests a good result of different directions being taken under budget being a viable way forward compared to the bigger budget mainstream mmorpgs?
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are actually a few upcoming MMos that look quite good. ESO will be successful because of its fan base and because Bethesda tends to hit it out of the ball park with their major efforts.
How many Games of the Year do they have? I think at least 4 in the last 10 years.
ES: Morrowind
ES: Oblivion
FallOut 3
ES: Skyrim
Elder Scrolls Online will scare whomever comes in second place. I'm hoping PFO will be "not scary" like that.
I think there is a lot of potential in both methods, particularly when they finally get put together.
Now if only someone gave me the chance to do that.
What I think would be cool, would be to integrate npcs and pcs, useing a flexible and randomly generated world with intelligent and reactive AIs with semi random personalities that change how different npcs interact and perform.
I.E. an orc band that travels depending on where allies and enemies are as well as resources. Some being "good" others "evil" ( not in the same group of course) and then orc PCs could start with any of the orc groups that share similar alignment, and have the important roles of the group be inherited if those npcs die, and a group actually reproduces based the individuals in the group, and if all the high lvl npcs of group die then they cant teach the low lvl npcs to become better, and so on, thus PCs could not only weaken a group of orcs, but could kill them all leaving no orcs to reproduce and possibly eradicate them from the known areas.
Include the ability to make alliances with npc groups and include PC grouping like in PFO, and it would be cool.
It actually why I am on the track towards learning AI, I want to make something like this.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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Yes, it's a theme park, and its waaaaay over budget, and it's being delayed so it can ship on next-gen consoles. I'm sure they'll sell millions, have a record first month pop, and be under 200k active players in six months. I predict it will sell 50-75% what Skyrim sold, at a budget 3-4x Skyrim.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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There are no other upcoming MMO-RPGs with any meaningful budgets besides EQN and Elder Scrolls. One MIGHT include World of Dakrness, but I frankly don't think it will ship, or if it does ship, will look anything like an "MMO".
I would not put the budget of Pathfinder Online in the class of "meaningful budget". If we're successful, there will a lot of $5-$10 million MMO projects, but if we fail we won't see many more.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I like The Repopulation. It's development closely resembles PfO, in my mind at least. You're the only two companies really interacting with the community from the ground up. And not just some community mod, actual people responsible for decisions are listening to us.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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Star Citizen: It will be EVE + Incarna - Persistent structures - massive social structures (Incarna is CCP's tech for avatar-based interaction). Basically Wing Commander: the MMO. It's budget is $10 million, so not even close to the last generation of MMOs.
Repopulation: Budget smaller than ours.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Star Citizen: It will be EVE + Incarna - Persistent structures - massive social structures (Incarna is CCP's tech for avatar-based interaction). Basically Wing Commander: the MMO. It's budget is $10 million, so not even close to the last generation of MMOs.
Repopulation: Budget smaller than ours.
Just to clarify, their targeted budget is $21 million from public funding only and they are currently at $17 million. No idea how close that gets to any other MMO's budget tho.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just to clarify, their targeted budget is $21 million from public funding only and they are currently at $17 million. No idea how close that gets to any other MMO's budget tho.Star Citizen: It will be EVE + Incarna - Persistent structures - massive social structures (Incarna is CCP's tech for avatar-based interaction). Basically Wing Commander: the MMO. It's budget is $10 million, so not even close to the last generation of MMOs.
Repopulation: Budget smaller than ours.
+ "Private Investment" probably matching crowdfunding or in the same region.
Whats the reasoning for believing a game can't be sandbox and mostly PvE?
I would consider Skyrim a sandbox, and it doesnt even allow other players. Or minecraft, if minecraft isnt a sandbox, I dont know what is.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The only upcoming MMO that I'm even remotely interested in (besides PFO) is Wildstar. I don't have the same hardon hate for themepark MMOs that many people on these forums seem to. Wildstar is adding enough stuff that I'm interested in to make me want to play another themepark MMO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Whats the reasoning for believing a game can't be sandbox and mostly PvE?
I would consider Skyrim a sandbox, and it doesnt even allow other players. Or minecraft, if minecraft isnt a sandbox, I dont know what is.
To me Skyrim is just the German made "Gothic" open world series of games with the combat dumbed down for a wider (ie. mainstream US) audience.
As for "Wing Commander: The MMO" the recently announced "EVE Valkyrie" seems to also fit that model.
One interesting development is the proposal to interlink EVE and DUST in a way that will allow player content to transfer between the two games.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I don't like the boom-bust hype cycle of themeparks and the player range of excitement and disappointment. To sum for mmorpgs: Invested leads to more possibility ie more time invested subsequently is more fun is what is preferable?
Smaller community seems better too for online. Maybe player factions reflects that? To feel you are part of a complex organisation around the world and mix with a game, it is something I'm v interested in.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I just wish I could build something of my own. I appreciate coming together as a community to build a settlement too but I'd like a small plot to do my own thing.
It seems to me that PfO is only a sandbox for the handful of people that manage your settlement.
But that goes back to me having a different definition of "sandbox".
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Goblin Squad Member
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There are no other upcoming MMO-RPGs with any meaningful budgets besides EQN and Elder Scrolls. One MIGHT include World of Dakrness, but I frankly don't think it will ship, or if it does ship, will look anything like an "MMO".
I would not put the budget of Pathfinder Online in the class of "meaningful budget". If we're successful, there will a lot of $5-$10 million MMO projects, but if we fail we won't see many more.
I never dared to ask your opinion on WoD. They seem pretty excited about it over at CCP. If it ever ships it would be a ground breaker.