Temporarily Meeting Feat Prerequisites


Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

I'm having trouble locating posts with regard to whether or not temporarily meeting a feat prerequisite is good enough to take the feat. For example, as a sixth level Urban Barbarian with a 14 dex and Greater Brawler rage power, do I qualify for Improved Two-Weapon fighting, since raging can grant me an 18 dex and Two-Weapon Fighting for unarmed?

If that's the case, then can any charismatic adventurer with UMD and a wand of <insert stat-boosting spell> also qualify?

Or if you have a magic item that grants you a feat that's a prerequisite for another feat you want?

Etc.

Anyone know?

Thanks,
-Rob

Dark Archive

if the bonus lasts fir 24 hours or more, you can. but temp buffs don't help

Silver Crusade

Simple answer is No.

Essentially, if you cannot do it without permanent bonuses then you cannot do it. If you lose those bonuses after getting the feat (like level loss or broken gear) then you can use them again when you do meet the requirements, even if it is only temporarily. There are some exceptions to this, most of the ones that come to mind are about flying or shape-changing.

Liberty's Edge

I seem to remember a ruling from some designer from 3.0 that addressed this in the context of stat-boosting items (I think it was a question of someone with a Strength of 11 wearing a belt that gave +2 Strength wanting to take Power Attack).

From what I remember, the ruling was that you can take a feat if you qualify for it at the time you take it, but as soon as you no longer qualify for it (you lose your magic belt, get hit by ray of enfeeblement, etc) you lose all the benefits and abilities that it granted (retaining any penalties the feat may impose), as well as all the benefits or feats that use that feat as a prerequisite.

I personally don't see a big problem with this. If someone wants to take a feat that they normally don't qualify for with the drawback that they only gain access to it by expending the use of a spell/ability/wand/etc, that seems like a fair trade.

To avoid potential abuses, I'd be tempted to make a ruling similar to Name Violation's, but I'm not sure that would be absolutely necessary.


We can sort of extrapolate an answer by reversing this. James Jacobs points out that normally ability damage (which is temporary) will not cause you to lose access to feats; ability drain (permanent without restoration) will cause you to lose the ability to use the feat.

So by inverting that decision, it appears something that grants a temporary bonus to an ability cannot be used to qualify for a prerequisite; something that grants a permanent bonus (including magic items that state the bonus becomes permanent) will qualify you.

However, note that per the PRD even if you lose a prerequisite for a feat, you don't lose the feat; you just lose the ability to use or benefit from the feat:

Feats - Prerequisites wrote:
A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables.


And then there's this definitive answer from SKR.


The thing to be careful of if you are going to allow players to take feats before they qualify is situations such as starting players at 6th level for example. The 6th level fighter then takes a whole list of feats that require BAB +6 and can immediately use all of them. Whereas if he'd started at level 1 he might not have opted to go that route since it would be 5 more levels before he would get the benefits.

And if I can take feats I don't qualify for, can I take rage powers that have a level requirement, or magus arcana, or any of a host of other class abilities that I don't currently qualify for yet but will in the near future. Or as a result of starting at higher level can I get more of the higher powers as though I'd taken them even when I didn't qualify for them?


I don't believe anyone here is suggesting that we should just let people take feats for which they don't qualify. The idea of taking rage powers or magus arcana that have level requirements the character cannot meet is beyond the scope of this discussion - nobody here is suggesting it should be allowed.

This is just about a character temporarily qualifying for a prerequisite by using spells or magic items to give him the prerequisite before he has a permanent solution. SKR says no, bearing in mind that items that enhance ability scores are considered permanent bonuses after 24 hours so they do count for prerequisites, but losing the item means losing access to the feat until you restore the prerequisite.


My post was more in reference to Jagyrs response, I should have noted that.

However, read SKR's points 5 & 6. SKR that believes (at least to some extent) the system should be redesigned to allow taking feats you don't qualify for. Now without further information from him his ideas on how to do this may still include limitations to prevent the starting 6th level fighter from taking a whole slew of feats he wouldn't normally qualify for till level 6 (or maybe his idea is that that should be completely allowed).

My second paragraph is more of a side note, if a GM is going to allow players to take feats they don't qualify for, someone will then ask about other things, such as rage powers, arcana, etc. You open a potential can of worms by allowing the feats without prereq.


Me, I don't so much mind a can of worms. You open a can of worms and the worst thing that happens is you say "Oh, yuck, it's full of worms". Then you put it down and go on about your business.

Now, opening a can of bees, that's a whole different matter entirely. I hate opening a can of bees...

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