It occurs to me also that part of the problem might be the concentration of four mythic beings in one party. I'm planning on running an AP as is with two mythic PCs to see how that plays. (Doesn't really help you if you do have four players, of course, but I wonder if that's part of the problem you're having).
I think the CR conversion is problematic.
It occurs to me also that part of the problem might be the concentration of four mythic beings in one party. I'm planning on running an AP as is with two mythic PCs to see how that plays. (Doesn't really help you if you do have four players, of course, but I wonder if that's part of the problem you're having).
That seems hard to do... Wouldn't the 'normal' players feel left out?
I think the CR conversion is problematic.
It is. Adjusting power / frequency can be done almost to suit personal taste. But assigning CR to that is where I see the issues crop up.
I'm afraid that it's highly dependent on the characters themselves and the powers they've selected to begin with.
It occurs to me also that part of the problem might be the concentration of four mythic beings in one party. I'm planning on running an AP as is with two mythic PCs to see how that plays. (Doesn't really help you if you do have four players, of course, but I wonder if that's part of the problem you're having).That seems hard to do... Wouldn't the 'normal' players feel left out?
I mean in a group of two players only. One of the design goals for mythic (at least at one point) was for a smaller group, possibly even one PC, to be able to play an AP "as written".
I mean in a group of two players only. One of the design goals for mythic (at least at one point) was for a smaller group, possibly even one PC, to be able to play an AP "as written".It occurs to me also that part of the problem might be the concentration of four mythic beings in one party. I'm planning on running an AP as is with two mythic PCs to see how that plays. (Doesn't really help you if you do have four players, of course, but I wonder if that's part of the problem you're having).That seems hard to do... Wouldn't the 'normal' players feel left out?
Oh, I see! Hm - maybe that might even make it easier. I've the feeling that under the current rules a few tiers in Mythic can easily compensate for a 'missing' PC. Just a hunch though.
How about we begin by asking the following and see what comes out? :
1) Have you already played or run a Mythic campaign using the playtest doc?
2) If so, what ‘level adjustment’ would you perceive makes up for a single Mythic Tier?
3) As the players accumulate levels and/or tiers, do you suppose the level adjustment needs to increase as well?
For me personally:
1 - Yes, I have.
2 - I thought +1 per tier wasn't really enough, but then again I believe +2 would be too much.
3 - I don't know. I've not advanced the players beyond Tier 2 and at that point, a +2 adjustment in total seemed ok, if perhaps not enough as mentioned above.
When the party is mythic, they can face tougher encounters without being a higher level.
I suggest try playing the rules as is. Because I know for a fact that you have not. You were asking just a few days ago if mythic power refreshed everyday.
When the party is mythic, they can face tougher encounters without being a higher level.
I suggest try playing the rules as is. Because I know for a fact that you have not. You were asking just a few days ago if mythic power refreshed everyday.
Marthkus,
I've run a campaign (still am) over several months, taking players up to level 4, tier 2, using the playtest doc.
When I bought MA, I was a little surprised to see that the powers per day had increased, instead of reduced, since in my experience it was hard enough to keep things challenging as well as believable.
I therefore sought advice on whether or not I had been reading the rules correctly concerning the refresh, which I had.
So, no - you do not know this 'for a fact.'
Kindly stay on topic.
When the party is mythic, they can face tougher encounters without being a higher level.
I suggest try playing the rules as is. Because I know for a fact that you have not. You were asking just a few days ago if mythic power refreshed everyday.
Marthkus,
I've run a campaign (still am) over several months, taking players up to level 4, tier 2, using the playtest doc.
When I bought MA, I was a little surprised to see that the powers per day had increased, instead of reduced, since in my experience it was hard enough to keep things challenging as well as believable.
I therefore sought advice on whether or not I had been reading the rules correctly concerning the refresh, which I had.So, no - you do not know this 'for a fact.'
Kindly stay on topic.
Actually it is. Try playing with the book instead of the playtest document. They are different things after all.
Maybe I'm completely alone here, but I do not believe that throwing tons and tons of encounters at the players to have them ground up is the idea of a good campaign. It might make for an interesting encounter, tactically, but repeated ad nauseam it soon becomes a boring slog through the gauntlet. That's not taking it up to 11. That's slowly killing the momentum of your game.
It's funny, but I've always considered the need to limit encounters to so few a day, especially at low levels, to be a little boring. Once your cleric is out of heal spells, you have to walk back to the village for the day and brag about the two orcs and the skeleton you killed? I think an opportunity to allow PCs to keep going for longer than a 15 minute work day sounds more like a benefit than a problem to me.
@Margrave:
I see your point. I haven't played Mythic yet so I can't really say what the problems might be. I'll house rule the crap out of it if it is a problem. It's a good frame work and your tips look good starting point if I find rules problematic. Thanks.
I know I run different styles of play. For mythic style games in the past I'd run 50 pt buys something close to it. Mythic seems more interesting and just powerful way of doing the same thing for those styles of games.
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It's not to my liking and I'm just trying to fix that for myself and maybe a few others who share the same view.
If and when I actually implement Mythic, I'm considering some of your changes. You're right in that the sheer number of Mythic points the characters get seems to be too much unless you're facing more constant mythic threats. I appreciate the thought you've put into it. Might save me some time down the road.
I believe that you would best be served by allowing pcs access to hero points and maybe a single choice from a very limited list of mythic powers. You wouldn't have to worry about tiers and game breaking abilities against non-mythic targets, while still letting your pcs have a little extra oomph and a cool ability (or 2).
That's not a bad idea. Tight control over what mythic abilities you allow in a game. If you're not really interested in Mythic monsters (at least most of the time), this might be a good way to go.
Dragons are immune to sleep I believe... Unless mythic hex bypasses immunity.
However more on topic I have been playing with mythic since the playtest, and I am not afraid of mythic breaking my game. First, the CR of of a mythic tier 2 fighter Isn't crazy better since, you can still get knocked out non-lethally even with hard to kill and to the death. Second, you're supposed to throw 1/3 of your encounters at the party ignoring their tiers. Your players are supposed to be crazy over powered and feel mythic. Third, the best way to balance encounters imo is to have mythic PCs fight higher level pc's and so on. A class level 4 / Teir 2 party should be fighting as though their a effectively level 5. That means they can go up against Cr 8 foes occasionally. They won't have the AC or gear to deal with these foes, but these abilities are meant to make them possible. To that end, I think k they succeed.
All in all I love the mythic rules. Not perfect, but what is?
I'm not a fan of Mythic at all, nor really epic level play. I get that there are power-gamers out there who see role-play as a table-top MMO and a race to Godhood, accumulating as much high-powered gear as possible along the way... these are the people you most often find trying to somehow 'win' RPG's.
But for me, good fantasy role-play falls somewhere between what you saw in the Lord of the Rings movies and the Game of Thrones television series. Its all about story and character. Everything else tends to distract from those things rather than enhance them. As a certain great author who shall remain nameless once said : 'The play's the thing'.
is Mythic Adventures a complete waste of time and money?
Well, no – I believe there’s stuff to be salvaged. Here’s four bits of advice to make it work if you wish to run a long-term Mythic Campaign in an ordinary world where the heroes are special, but they are also challenged and choices are hard. If you prefer the inexorable powertrip rollercoaster ride, the book is fine for you.
1) Reduce the maximum amount of Mythic Power points per day to HALF the character’s Tier, with a minimum of 1. So, A 1st Tier Character has a single point and doesn’t gain an extra point until Tier 3. I’m willing to bet they’ll treat those powers as special now. Don’t forget to make the same adjustment for Mythic Monsters.
2) Characters regain a single point of Mythic Power after a minimum of 8 hours of rest. The rest is mandatory and cannot be circumvented by other powers and abilities that allow you to regain ability uses without rest. That means a 6th-Tier character will need to rest at least 3 days in order to fully regain his 3 Mythic Power points if they were expended.
3) Remove the ‘mythic’ requirement from all Boon conditions. The only requirement is that the foe has a CR above the character’s ADJUSTED level (see below)
4) Consider that each Mythic Tier possessed by a creature adjusts its CR by +1. So, A 1st level/1st Tier character is CR 1. A 3rd Level/2nd Tier character is CR 4.
What we’ve done here is diluting the rocket fuel a little, so we can still drive our trusty, sturdy, proven, Volkswagen campaign through the world, only this time it goes quite a bit faster and has an awesome little flame coming from the tailpipe.
It might still blow up if the mechanic (aka the DM) doesn’t give it a regular checkup, but overall, you’re good to go now.Hope this was useful to you. Feed-back is welcome.
I disagree with #1, but I like #2-4 ideas.
And here we have the stormwind fallacy in full force. Good players and a good story teller can tell a good story regardless of rather the characters are Robb Stark or Hercules.I'm not a fan of Mythic at all, nor really epic level play. I get that there are power-gamers out there who see role-play as a table-top MMO and a race to Godhood, accumulating as much high-powered gear as possible along the way... these are the people you most often find trying to somehow 'win' RPG's.
But for me, good fantasy role-play falls somewhere between what you saw in the Lord of the Rings movies and the Game of Thrones television series. Its all about story and character. Everything else tends to distract from those things rather than enhance them. As a certain great author who shall remain nameless once said : 'The play's the thing'.
IF that's the case - and I'm certainly not granting the premise - then why do you need all of 'teh uber' in the first place? The fact of the matter is that all of the greatest stories and all of the greatest characters I've ever enjoyed would never have needed 'mythic' or 'epic' rules... its been my experience that the further away you get from the human experience, the further away you get from the humanistic experience.
That's not to say it isn't fun to get together and blow things up with weapons of ever-increasing power based loosely around a psuedo-story to give it direction... I'm just saying that when I need that kind of fix, I look to Doom or Halo, not the cooperative story-telling that are RPG's.
But for me, good fantasy role-play falls somewhere between what you saw in the Lord of the Rings movies and the Game of Thrones television series. Its all about story and character. Everything else tends to distract from those things rather than enhance them. As a certain great author who shall remain nameless once said : 'The play's the thing'.
I admire the sentiment, but if I were aiming to run the campaign you describe, I wouldn't choose Pathfinder RPG to play it.
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I will preface this by saying that I do not own the Mythic rules, am not interested in high powered play and I am still holding out for Paizo to announce "Gritty Adventures - stripping away the power boost that came with 3rd edition/PF". Which means I will be holding out forever.
All that being said I think the OP might have a pacing problem/foe allocation issue.
I would guess (and correct me if I am wrong) that the mundane or non-mythic encounters should at least be optimized or red-lined in their design and layout.
That is, for a given day of mostly non-mythic encounters, those encounters they do have should be slightly higher level or the creature encounter set-up should be better thought out to challenge the PCs -ambush, unfavorable terrain for PCs, civilians at risk, etc. Otherwise the PCs WILL run roughshod over those "old style" encounters on a purely mechanical basis, will never use their mythic abilities and then can just NOVA points when they do need to use their mythic abilities (vs. mythic foes).
The way I look at it (or a good example) would be any number of action movies where hordes of bad guys are going after the hero’s en mass. During their fights to get to the lead henchmen and BBEG, they encounter mobs of fodder, but once in a while even the mundane fodder are either configured, set up or just by via luck are positioned to really threaten the hero(s). Sort of like the action scene where the two cops are blasting through the army of terrorist in an industrial zone/warehouses – going from roof top to roof top, and then one small team/squad of terrorist pops up equipped with an RPG (or some other threat, Bulldozer, big rig, ninjas) and the heroes are then challenged and threatened by fodder - armed with an RPG (wand of fireballs or whatever). Maybe they would be considered "elite" fodder.
So for that last encounter the players (if they want to live) are going to be forced to use some of their mythic resources to survive or to avoid damage that is going to work against them later on when they have their real (RE: Mythic) encounters. That the issue may lie with the way non-mythic encounters are set up to deal with mythic PCs. So most are just speed bumps, but every once in a while a no-name NPC pops up to break the routine of useless hordes without the NPC(s) being mythic.
More of an outside observation - if someone with the rules wants to chime in and correct me on my analysis I won't be offended since my position is based off the playtest and what people here are complaining about.
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My first stop in this book was straight to Chapter 4; Running a Mythic game. I don't care what the powers are, how awesome spells become, or how easy it becomes to Throw an Ankylosaurus At a T-Rex. I wanted advice to accommodate the scope and scale of how to run a Mythic game where the capabilities and powers of the Players would slide even more into their favor than the base game assumptions.
A couple things I immediately thought of when I landed on this thread and saw the general complaints of "too much power makes trivial things trivial" and "Broken CR is Broken".
The OP constantly references the Rare scope (Mythic Heroes in a Mundane World) of his desire for the game, when right next to it is the Limited scope. Don't like how powerful the players end up being in a mundane world? Take that power away. Do it with the power of Plot, but change the scale to the Limited Scope and you'll likely find that the chances for abusing that power are lessened. If you want there to be an economy to the Mythic Power, go with the suggestion (pg. 118) that you impose an economy to it.
Secondly, sidebar pg. 120 The Importance of Failure. check it out. Also known as, When Winning isn't Victory.
Thirdly, the structure to the ideas is very much based on the ideas of the classic Herculean mythos, but you have to accept that its going to be implemented by a bunch of gamers who at our best are like as not to grab the ring of power and put it on, instead of toss it into the fires of Mt. Doom. At our worst, we're munchkin trash looking to stuff every item of any perceived value (gold, jewels, 4'x6' Paintings of Obscure Chelish Nobles, Corpses of our closest friends still dripping with magic items) into one of our 5-9 bags of holding so we can plop it all down and ruin the local economy of the nearest capital city. Point is, if you give power out, you have to be prepared for that power to be used. You can't complain when that power is used irresponsibly.
Part of my base assumption to running a Mythic game, which I very much want to do, is to change the inherent context of running a "normal" game and scale it up to something that would be unforgivably ridiculous for a non-mythic campaign. Hercules strangled 2 deadly asps with his bare hands, while still naked in the crib. How will I use that example to fuel the gaming of my 4-6 Players is in part what this book/ruleset is supposed to answer. I think it provides fine guidelines for just that. Its not gonna run the game for you, but it will help provide you with a new idea of how the scope is meant to be drawn.
And Finally , I would HIGHLY recommend when going from any of the playtest rules to the finished product that any DM should take it upon themselves to provide some sort of reset to their game, either a reboot or a good ol' fashioned sit down Meta conversation with the players about what the plans are and how to adjust everything to meet whatever kind of expectations there are. This coming from a guy that tried (and somewhat succeeded) in running the original RotRL (in 3.5 o' vision) with the PF Beta rules, and transitioned into the final product, with never less than 5 players.
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And here we have the stormwind fallacy in full force. Good players and a good story teller can tell a good story regardless of rather the characters are Robb Stark or Hercules.I'm not a fan of Mythic at all, nor really epic level play. I get that there are power-gamers out there who see role-play as a table-top MMO and a race to Godhood, accumulating as much high-powered gear as possible along the way... these are the people you most often find trying to somehow 'win' RPG's.
But for me, good fantasy role-play falls somewhere between what you saw in the Lord of the Rings movies and the Game of Thrones television series. Its all about story and character. Everything else tends to distract from those things rather than enhance them. As a certain great author who shall remain nameless once said : 'The play's the thing'.
IF that's the case - and I'm certainly not granting the premise - then why do you need all of 'teh uber' in the first place? The fact of the matter is that all of the greatest stories and all of the greatest characters I've ever enjoyed would never have needed 'mythic' or 'epic' rules... its been my experience that the further away you get from the human experience, the further away you get from the humanistic experience.
That's not to say it isn't fun to get together and blow things up with weapons of ever-increasing power based loosely around a psuedo-story to give it direction... I'm just saying that when I need that kind of fix, I look to Doom or Halo, not the cooperative story-telling that are RPG's.
Maybe because some players have been working with those tools for the past X years? In your case, why even put out new books ever again? We can tell the same stories with core, so we never needed an APG, or UC, etc...
Different rule sets allow for different stories, unless your players are good enough optimizers to already accomplish mythic things like have a 10 min/lv potion last all day. There's a fun in kicking things to 11, of being hyper competent, of shooting a super nuke fireball and destroying an orc village DBZ style. There's also a fun in having your wizard barely strong enough to lift a cane and still bludgeoning a skeleton to death with 1 HP left because he had no other options.
A high powered game has just as much chance for fun as a low powered one, and some people like the "I have ALL the power" as much as they like "I have NONE of the power." It's just a different subset of enjoyment, and neither is less valid than the other.
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I will preface this by saying that I do not own the Mythic rules, am not interested in high powered play and I am still holding out for Paizo to announce "Gritty Adventures - stripping away the power boost that came with 3rd edition/PF". Which means I will be holding out forever.
I'd buy it, Aux.
Mundane Adventures.
On a separate note, I think there's more to the conversation than a simple value judgement for or against Mythic.
It's a wildly ambitious rule-set. I'm sure that Paizo was aware when they made it that they were experimenting a great deal, and I doubt they expected all of the experiments therein to be 100% successful.
So I think it is only fair for us to carefully examine the final product and discuss which experiments worked, and which did not.
I personally prefer to be respectful in tone while doing that. It increases the chances that the developers will listen.
I still plan on integrating Mythic into one of my campaigns, so a thread like this actually helps to call out the potholes on the road before I head down it. Maybe the OP could have been a touch more delicate in his (?) wording, but I'm just grateful it had actual issues raised instead of just nerdrage.
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I will preface this by saying that I do not own the Mythic rules, am not interested in high powered play and I am still holding out for Paizo to announce "Gritty Adventures - stripping away the power boost that came with 3rd edition/PF". Which means I will be holding out forever.I'd buy it, Aux.
Mundane Adventures.
Also known as "All Those Rats Aren't Going To Kill Themselves!"
As amusing as that is, there's a huge theoretical space open for adventurers, magic, and fantasy races in a game that isn't a tiered list of superpowers. We tend to think of it in the extreme; Filth-Ridden Serfs: The Role-Playing Game. But there's a happy medium and a lot of games out there that fit.
It would be interesting to see a Pathfinder version, but it's also interesting to watch someone hammer a nail in with a screwdriver. Would buy, but I doubt Paizo would publish.
I'm curious about that also...
The adventure included at the back of the book already set an example. And while it looked pretty amazing, I can see myself struggling to come up with bigger, better, harder, faster stuff each time...
Take a look at the Wrath or the Righteous Adventure Path it does just that it scales each of the mythic encounters as the PCs progress, it can be done.
I'd also posit, with no time, energy or forethought to back that position, that Filth-Ridden Serfs: The Grit RPG (awesome btw) and Mythic rules are not absolutes to be diametrically opposed. With enough creativity, and most importantly Player Buy-in, there's plenty of value that could be gleaned from mythic stuff to cram into the gritty rusty-nail in the boot kinda game. Granted, it would be a lot of work, and require an evolved mature gaming group, but the two concepts (at least in my dementia) are not so estranged.
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Also known as "All Those Rats Aren't Going To Kill Themselves!"I will preface this by saying that I do not own the Mythic rules, am not interested in high powered play and I am still holding out for Paizo to announce "Gritty Adventures - stripping away the power boost that came with 3rd edition/PF". Which means I will be holding out forever.I'd buy it, Aux.
Mundane Adventures.
Which is funny because T1: Village of Hommlet was specifically designed for new, level 1 characters and that module had: a small army of bandits, green slime, zombies, ghouls,a higher level evil cleric, higher level fighters, giant lizard, giant spiders and a slew of other encounters that were very hard but played by characters that were considerably lower powered than their 3rd/PF descendants.
Go figure.
And Mr. Mythic Evil POTUS – thank you for your vote of confidence. I know that you are one of the boards more reasonable advocates to an "alternative view" to the one-size-fits-all attitude that flies around here.
My "Gritty Adventures" comment wasn't meant as a derail – just was stating my personal position on that level of power before I turned around and posted a comment that was to address the ops issues with the book and to present ideas in support of Mythic Adventures.
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Taking something like Exalted, you power up the PCs to power up the challenges. Instead of being Zorro and fencing six guys at once impressively, you're an ant leaping down a lion's back and swinging it around by its tail. Instead of swinging from chandeliers, you're jumping over mountains. Instead of holding a door shut to preventing a troll from bashing it down, you're holding interdenominational timespace portals open with your martial arts.
All that being said, I haven't read the book yet. Very excited too. If you think the power additions are too much too soon, limit them. House rule it. Give the PCs... maybe one power point each. Then later. Two, total. Make them cherish their power. Then ramp the power level of the enemies faster than that of the PCs, so even with their f-ed up powers, they're barely hanging on.
Everything is up to the DM. I can't wait to read this book.
Let me just note that in a normal, non-Mythic campaign, I tend to set up "boss fights" as APL +3 to +5 encounters. If you want "mythic" adventures but you want to see your players sweat and dig deep into their resources, just turn up the heat. If you want a "mythic" encounter, don't amp up a couple of kobolds. Take a 1st level kobold fighter, give her a mythic tier, and stick her on top of a very young red dragon. Boom! There's your mythic encounter for a second level party. Is there a danger one or more PCs will be killed? Yes, yes there is.
My main concern and that which I’m trying to fix is still the trivialization of Mythic power. While that’s not a problem mechanically (as several of you have pointed out, there’s always a bigger fish), I consider it a thematical issue – and that’s entirely due to personal taste. So perhaps Mythic was not meant for me.
Shadowcat suggested I look into Hero Points and I did. The HP system does indeed seem like something more to my liking, but I really do like the overall theme of Mythic and I suppose I’m really seeking some hybrid system. However, such a system will be well and truly rooted in houserule territory and almost impossible to re-use in someone else’s campaign.
As such, I will probably just start experimenting with reduced Mythic power points, as per my earlier suggestion, and a slower recovery rate while being a little more generous with rewards for heroic action.
As for the CR, it seems there’s no unanimous view regarding that (only that there’s something wrong) So I’ll just do what DM’s do: play it by ear.
On closer inspection, it seems very difficult to apply a ‘cover-all’ set of rules to MA to accomodate lower-level play where the heroes are Mythic, but the Mythic challenges are rare and uniquely climactic. That might have been the reason this play style is not really fully covered in the book in the first place.
If nothing else, this thread has encouraged people to take a closer look at the new rules (which, I’ll repeat once more, are pretty good overall) and may have sparked some ideas for those who wish to use the material to run something a little more low-profile.
If I do manage to come up with anything solid though, I’ll post it here – but taking into account a generous amount of playtesting, that will take a while.
And here we have the stormwind fallacy in full force. Good players and a good story teller can tell a good story regardless of rather the characters are Robb Stark or Hercules.I'm not a fan of Mythic at all, nor really epic level play. I get that there are power-gamers out there who see role-play as a table-top MMO and a race to Godhood, accumulating as much high-powered gear as possible along the way... these are the people you most often find trying to somehow 'win' RPG's.
But for me, good fantasy role-play falls somewhere between what you saw in the Lord of the Rings movies and the Game of Thrones television series. Its all about story and character. Everything else tends to distract from those things rather than enhance them. As a certain great author who shall remain nameless once said : 'The play's the thing'.
IF that's the case - and I'm certainly not granting the premise - then why do you need all of 'teh uber' in the first place? The fact of the matter is that all of the greatest stories and all of the greatest characters I've ever enjoyed would never have needed 'mythic' or 'epic' rules... its been my experience that the further away you get from the human experience, the further away you get from the humanistic experience.
That's not to say it isn't fun to get together and blow things up with weapons of ever-increasing power based loosely around a psuedo-story to give it direction... I'm just saying that when I need that kind of fix, I look to Doom or Halo, not the cooperative story-telling that are RPG's.
This isn't true. Your perception is biasing your opinion.
Comic books did very well using fantastic characters to tell very human stories. Anime is rife with overpowered, mythic type abilities, yet many people love anime. There are many stories of fantastically powerful individuals, even in books like Lord of the Rings, Elric, and Game of Thrones. Daenerys has three dragons serving her. What isn't Mythic about that? You can't do that in a regular Pathfinder campaign.
Even Lord of the Rings has some fantastically powerful individuals like Gandalf who is in essence an angel. He stands up to a creature none of the others can stand up to. Gandalf would certainly be a mythic character able to stand up to a Balrog in single combat and destroy an ancient stone bridge with a tap of his staff. He lifted the funeral bier upon which Faramir was laid by himself with one arm. He is that strong.
Then there is Aragorn of an ancient race able to command an undead army to serve his needs. He has a sword unlike anyone else has. He fights hordes of orcs with hardly any armor.
You could probably make a Lord of the Rings type of environment with Mythic rules because you could have characters doing seemingly impossible feats like fighting orc armies without the need for the magic item Christmas tree.
It's creative use of the rules that counts, not the rules themselves.
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A solution for the feeling that Mythic is too powerful is to just not give the mythic tiers as early or as often, say dont give the first tier until level 8 or 9 as opposed to the suggested 4 or 5. Also you can inform your players that they wont be getting all the way to tier 10, stop them at tier 3 or 4 if you think it is overpowered to go past that.