Becoming a More Difficult GM


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Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston

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Upon reading the title of this thread and who posted it, I am fairly certain that there are certain posters on this forum who are wiping the coffee off of their monitors. Still, it's true - after GenCon, I've realized that one area which I desperately need to improve on as a GM is in running monsters in a challenging fashion. In order to be effective, this game needs to feel close, even if it isn't necessarily. I have seen many GMs do this quite well, but I often see my monsters dying early and without note. Can anybody here suggest some ways to make these encounters more challenging without abandoning the written stat-block? Any way to make them *feel* more challenging even if they are not? Any help would be appreciated.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

I don't have time this second to write out a long post.

But the biggest hint I can give you is:

Learn the tactical battle rules of the game like the back of your hand, and play the game, in some ways, like you would play Chess.

Think two or three (or seven) moves in advance and set up the players to fall into your traps.

4/5

I struggle with the same problem. More often than not, you're playing one against six. Casters get shut down by melee brutes, your melee brute gets dropped in a pit.

First and foremost: know your statblocks. Does "your" guy have Power Attack? Combat Reflexes? If so, use them--but intelligently. If the monster hits the player easily, it will probably start power attacking. If it's finding him difficult to hit, it will attack normally to increase its chance to hit.

And don't forget that knowing your statblocks also--especially--means knowing your spells. Throw up Displacement or Blur for miss chances. Drop a Confusion and let them kill each other for a while.

Second: don't let the party determine your tactics. They're going to have the fighter front and center, toe-to-toe with your demon. Doesn't mean your demon has to fight him. Is the archer blowing up bad guys? Then they'd probably make him a priority. Is the cleric undoing all your damage? Probably time to target the healer.

Third: know the map. It's one advantage you have over them in terms of planning. You can decide whether bottlenecking them in the doorway is to your advantage or theirs. You can corner yourself to avoid flanks, or seek high ground to avoid melee attacks.

Fourth: start practicing advanced tactics. Ready attacks to disrupt spellcasters. If someone starts casting a 1 round spell, throw some damage to interrupt. Don't charge into the party, instead let them come to you so you get full attacks to their one. Use Reach to trip people when they provoke AoOs.

That's a start, but as I said, I'm really a cupcake GM myself, especially when running casters. I eagerly await others' advice here.

Dark Archive 5/5 5/5

Well, the first question I have is, "Why do you think the monsters failed?" Yes, tactics can make certain monsters easier to defeat, but really take into account the area the critter lives/spends their time/ is encountered. Is there an advantage the critter can use? Remember to use combat maneuvers. You can trip players just as often as they trip you.

I also admit I am horrible at running arcane casters as bad guys. I struggle something fierce! But I am trying to get better.

If you can give us an example or two of times you describe above, I am positive folks here can help you.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston

Sure. I'll use some older scenarios, even though the thoughts really occurred regarding newer ones that most people haven't played yet.

1) Gods' Market Gamble - I've ran this one 7 times. It's one of my favorite adventures ever. Everybody says that the fight with the boss is extremely lethal, but I've never had a death in it.

Spoiler:
So, I generally start with her behind cover on one of the tents, firing from stealth. The perception rolls aren't high enough to catch her. Once the team gets close enough to cause her issues, she quaffs her potion of invisibility and shoots from a different tent on the other side of the map. This one feels hard, but not nearly as hard as everybody says. Of course she uses rapid shot every turn, unless she is also taking a move action.

2) Silent Tide - I remember playing this one and thinking that the fight in the Metro Cathedral was a bit rough. Recently, I GMmed it and found it rather easy.

Spoiler:
It's been a while since I played it, but when I ran it, positive channels and AoE spells wiped the floor with this. Not really sure what else I could have done differently.

3) The Night March of Kalkamedes -

Spoiler:
Ilvaster has never given any of my groups trouble. He lasts a few rounds, but for the most part, he's a speedbump. The rest of the encounters have seemed easy for my groups, too.

4) The Halls of Dwarven Lore -

Spoiler:
The ghoul fight in this one lasts a long time, but I never dropped a player to even 3/4ths health. There just doesn't seem to be much you can do with this one, especially at 5-6. Having the higher-leveled enemy heal is just about it - the way the map is drawn, it's rather difficult to make use of the sneak attack bonuses. Also, why is there a CR 1 ghoul in a 5-9?

3/5

As others have said, "know the monster" - the stat block, what all the spells and abilities do, etc.

The big problem - especially with complex fights (I just ran "Cult of the Ebon Destroyer" this weekend, for example, so this concept is fresh in my mind!) - is that once the fight starts, players always derail your expectations (a good thing!) and you get caught up in the pacing and game management, and you start *forgetting* things. We've *all* heard GMs exclaim "oh, I forgot about so-and-so" after complex fights.

It can be useful to organize your NPCs the way you'd organize your own character. You might write their spells, abilities and so on on small postcards, so you can shuffle through to select actions each round - I often enter key NPCs into Hero Lab and run them from there (that's what I did with the module "Curse of the Riven Sky", a very fighty time!)

Some things I like to do to organize a complex run - I print out the stat blocks on individual sheets, so I don't have to refer to them in the module during a fight (and I can make notations on the sheets), print out the NPC pictures (if any) from the scenario PDF for immersion (I clip them on the front of my screen), AND (most important) I anticipate what my players might do and how I'll counter it (if I know who's sitting at my table, which I do unless it's a convention).

One thing you do *Not* want to do is slow the pace of the game searching for the right move - you want to go-go-go at a fast clip, to keep things paced (one way to challenge players is to rock along so *they* have less time to plan).

(Pro-tip: I make a count of the total d4s, d6s, d8s,...,d20s I'll need for a scenario so I have them ready: minimize the clutter without having to slow things down going into the dice bag!)

One thing I'll add - avoid the temptation to "cheat" to make things more challenging. Deciding on the fly that the BBG is somehow "immune" to hold monster or a witch's sleep hex changes it from a game to a forced narration, which defeats the whole purpose of playing!

Prepare, prepare, prepare!

Liberty's Edge 2/5

Let me tell you, I just ran Temple of Empyreal Enlightenment, and I totally forgot about

Spoiler:
Heresy Points! I should have had many of the PC's rolling all attacks twice for two rounds. I also didn't give the boss a surprise round, which was a mistake.

You can't stop PC crits, which ended one encounter on the first turn of combat.

Then I had a level 3 fighter playing in Tier 1-2 with his 20 STR and Two-handed archetype, using Overhand Chop. Let's just say he trivialized the fight.

I played God's Market Gamble, and it was a tough fight, in relative terms. We acutally had someone drop unconscious, and the dwarf fighter with high AC actually got hit.

(Much to my delight. It sickens me when players assume the outcome, saying before a roll "I hit/kill the monster" or ready with their snooty "of course that didn't hit me, my AC is 547.")

In Silent Tide, I had three full martials obliterating the bad guys - since the baddies have low AC, low HP, and their + to hit is low.

Honestly, the best way to make PFS harder would be to cap tables at 4 players, especially for seasons 0-3.

Dark Archive 2/5

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Derek Weil wrote:
(Much to my delight. It sickens me when players assume the outcome, saying before a roll "I hit/kill the monster" or ready with their snooty "of course that didn't hit me, my AC is 547.")

This, I remember too well DMing 'Fortress of the Nail' the group all full of themselves and then...

A certain encounter, high tier.

Spoiler:
The group passes through the portal, starts to search. I ask for initiative, the BBG goes first. I announce 16d6 fire damage for 62 hps, 31 on successful save, drops one PC dead right away (but he shirt rerolled and got a Nat 20).
Wizard goes next, he announces:
"I cast Wall of Stone across the room, and I do not know about you guys, but I am getting the Eff out of here.

Since then players seem to be less full of themselves, even more so after 'Rebel's Ransom'.

Shadow Lodge 3/5

Yeah, I tend to be a bit of a cakewalk GM as well (and I'm familiar with, at least, most of the rules). I've got two minds about this.

First, as a player, personally I don't like games that are overly challenging. If I end up cakewalking through encounters, I much prefer that to when it feels like I hardly had a chance.

Second, I'm sensitive to players who do like hard mode, and have hyper-optimised characters to boot, or have hyper optimised characters in their parties. My aim as a GM here is to try and drop one character - that's usually the point where the game feels challenging for the players, and it comes out feeling like a lot of fun when they win. And it feels achievable.

And on a side note, I don't like it when scenarios go out of their way to have ruthless tactics, forcing hard mode. I never want to play Bonekeep, for example ;).

Dark Archive 5/5 5/5

Swiss Mercenary wrote:
Derek Weil wrote:
(Much to my delight. It sickens me when players assume the outcome, saying before a roll "I hit/kill the monster" or ready with their snooty "of course that didn't hit me, my AC is 547.")

This, I remember too well DMing 'Fortress of the Nail' the group all full of themselves and then...

A certain encounter, high tier.

** spoiler omitted **

Since then players seem to be less full of themselves, even more so after 'Rebel's Ransom'.

This is why I call out just about all of my attack rolls. I tell the table I do this because I never assume I hit. I ask that the players do the same.

Shadow Lodge 2/5

Gods Market Gamble

Spoiler:
If your party doesn't have a good ranged team, she's absolute hell. The tents she's standing on are out of melee range, and if she gets up into her tent tower, she can get rid of the ladder, at which point there's no way up bar climbing up a pole, or chopping the tent tower down. She can also start combat at 100+ feet, given her longbow and the angle she gets on the PC approach. Again, if she's in the the tent tower, she has line of sight to everyone.

Dark Archive 2/5

I second everybody emphasizing knowing your monsters very well. If they have some cute trick, plan out a combat plan when that would be useful. It's no more meta gaming then the PC wizard who has a create pit/cloud kill combo in his back pocket.

If you have the ability and time, make a character sheet for a "named" bad guy. My players know things are going to get rough when I pull out a PC sheet. They know its me against them. *cracks knuckles*

Also, don't allow OOC chatter or players telling other players strategy. I inform my players not to do this at the beginning of the game with a stern warning and typically that is enough. You would be surprised how much harder combats are when one person isn't directing what everybody else "should" do.

Giving a time limit per turn also creates pressure that doesn't maximize the actions available.

And just like in chess, once you move your mini on the grid and take off your finger, it has to stay there.

1/5

I don't like beating the crap out of PCs, but I've had problems with this too. Hell, the last game I ran (The Mantis Prey) I even managed to

Spoiler:
Fool the party into releasing the disguised Red Mantis minions, then jumped the party in surprise round as soon as they all had their back turned going through a door. I then quickly learned that I couldn't actually hit anyone in the party unless on a nat 20, and two people just went invisible, at which point I decided that the fight would be a huge waste of time and we might as well just skip to post-fight.

I find it funny that I've been in situations that fellow players have said were "cakewalks" only for things to go super duper far south when I'm playing, but every time I read a statblock on a monster and think "oh god, I hope I don't kill someone with this" the thing gets trounced before I even have a chance to do nothing.

C'est la vie, I guess.

Dark Archive 5/5 *

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2 things I run across as obstacles are:

1) encounter has listed tactics. they say bbeg does such and such. granted if it doesnt make sense due to parties actions then change them a bit.

2) when 4 pcs go before the bad guy alot, it's hard to have much of an encounter.

The Exchange 1/5

These are just suggestions. YMMV.

The question isn't to be a more difficult DM. It's not difficult to kill characters. The difficulty is to be a more challenging and fun DM. The object of this Game is to have fun. As the judge we entertain our players and through our players be entertained by them.

Read. Read read. Know your monsters. Know your environments. Know pathfinder rules.

That being said. Lose the screen. Roll out in the open. You'd be surprised how much tension you can make with a little stare down on an open confirm crit with a scythe. Don't use initial cards or use those init cards to maintain hps. I've bought a journal book to maintain hps and The init board that Paizo sells is great.

Think like your monster, don't use complex tactics for animals or statues. Conversely if he's smart and you see someone get healed...go for the healer or other spellcaster just like regular parties do...

You should (in my opinion) dial it down for new players because you are the ambassador for pathfinder and you might the first, last, and only judge if a player has a bad experience with the system. I've seen this happen in person.

Good luck!

Liberty's Edge 1/5

Remember first that many encounters will be no challenge regardless of what you do.

1. Enforce the action economy. This makes a difference at all levels, more so low and middle. Characters have a limited number of hands and those hands are needed to do things. They need a hand to cast. They need two hands to climb. And so forth.

2. Get extra meat on the table when tactics and resources all. Summons, etc. leverage what actions your BBGs have and can use.

3. Target PCs intelligently, when appropriate. If creatures have options, target creatures based upon expected will saves and PC appearance. Don't throw Reflex saves at guys in light armor. Don't throw Fort saves at guys in heavy armor. Don't throw Will saves at demonstrated spellcasters.

4. Use the elements of terrain in ways to the critters' advantage.

5. Know the statblocks, including type and subtype capabilities. A lot of immunities require reference to these. If you don't know them, review them and make notes during prep.

6. Know your critters' spells and special abilities.

Liberty's Edge 2/5 *

I feel like Im in this boat. Im very hesitant about running higher tier games. Its all the extras.. the extra feats, higher end tactics, spells and so on that come with that.

I decided to confront it head on so Im running the newish Halls of Dwarven Lore 3 parter ( I did just run the first part).

I still think I missed up some parts, but at 5-6 its still not probably what most people would call high tier.

What gets me is the big bad guy being a Rogue.. by himself. Its 99 percent unlikely hes ever going to be able to use his Rogue stuff.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston

Part 2 is significantly better, Matthew. That being said, there should be 3 enemies in that boss fight...

Dark Archive 5/5 5/5

Matthew Pittard wrote:


What gets me is the big bad guy being a Rogue.. by himself. Its 99 percent unlikely hes ever going to be able to use his Rogue stuff.

Look for improved or greater feint in the feats section. If the rogue has these feats, go to town!

Liberty's Edge 2/5 *

The 2nd one looks very interesting and depending on what happens it might finish quickly. If things go badly, could the first battle effectively resolve the scenario?

By the time we got to the puzzle late in the game I didnt have a long period of time left, so they trial'd and errored with the buttons till they worked it out. I would of preferred the lock to have been early in the adventure.

Neto: There was. The channel was interesting (cept I could never touch the Paladin with it). The Rogue died early on while the Fighter was having a fun time.. took the sorc down due to positioning.. then was wailed on. It was the lack of mobility on the Cleric that got to me. Still I enjoyed the lore behind it, but again there is no way really for the pcs ever to find out. Sandricaan was pumping out his speech after the Paladin cured his Fatique.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston

Matt: The party won't end it at that point. If they do, it's probably mission failure.

5/5

My suggestion to ramp up the challenge for your players is to run lots of games. Tis is something that I consider on of my weak points, but I know I'm better now than I was 100 games ago. Run the same scenario four or five times so you can get a better feel for how the same NPCs react to different party make ups.

Also pay attention to some of the basic rules of combat - concentration of fire, use of cover, targeting healers, etc. Think of how a PC (or group of PCs) would fight, and emulate that.

Building tension also makes for a more memorable encounter, even if its not really that tough. If an enemy has an AC of 13, and the fighter rolls an 18 to hit, try saying "You barely manage to find a chink in his armor!" instead of "You hit."

2/5 *

Sometimes it's not the GM that's soft, it's the scenario.

1) Gods' Market Gamble: Only the last encounter is difficult, but it will depend on the PCs builds and when the fight starts.

2) Silent Tide: Super easy, even for season 0. I recommend it as the first scenario any PC plays only.

3) The Night March of Kalkamedes: I just played this at Gencon and found it extremely easy. It was very enjoyable though.

The real question is, can you make a fair and interesting combat with say "King of the Storval Stairs"?

Most of the time, when I see GMs make fights too easy, it's because they don't know the rules. For example:

- Almost every ranged PC I've seen never factors cover into their rolls. +4 AC is a big deal. And no, they didn't have improved precise shot. GMs never ask questions of the players, but reminders are important.

- If the NPC can grapple well and the main DPS is a 2H martial PC, have him grapple and shut him down.

- Tactics, if the NPC is smart enough to use them.

- Knowing class abilities: I had one GM doing 8 damage per hit with a level 5 Magus. Needless to say, he didn't understand the Magus class at all. And then he had the nerve to say that the scenario wasn't challenging.

- Knowing the monster abilities: For example, I had a GM that didn't know a monster had Pounce. Another forgot that Ice Golems explode when destroyed. Both made a huge difference but both were forgotten. Make notes or a cheat sheet when preparing scenarios so you don't forget about game changing abilities.

I could go on and on, but it comes down to GM preparation.

4/5

Netopalis wrote:

Sure. I'll use some older scenarios, even though the thoughts really occurred regarding newer ones that most people haven't played yet.

1) Gods' Market Gamble - I've ran this one 7 times. It's one of my favorite adventures ever. Everybody says that the fight with the boss is extremely lethal, but I've never had a death in it

When I ran this, I nearly killed a couple of characters. And that was before I remembered

Spoiler:
that the BBEG has Favored Enemy Human. That extra damage adds up fast. It's also one of those things that's really easy to overlook.

Regarding table talk. I usually allow it in lower level tables, but if it's especially bad, or if it's a more experienced group of players, you can let the bad guys benefit from it as well:

"That guy said he's going to drop a fireball on us. Everybody spread out!"

Also try to adjust tactics to the situation at hand. If one of your bad guys has sneak attack, go for the character that's still flat-footed. If someone's hanging back by themselves (to cast or shoot, for example), circle around or teleport in to target them and get away from the rest of the party.

Shadow Lodge

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This is a good thread, we should keep it going.

Tactics can help a lot - remember as a GM you can employ the same tactics that players can. If the group is having trouble, you can hold back. If the group is dominating, you can employ as solid of tactics as the printed tactics and monster smarts allow.

I'm just throwing out random thoughts.

* Always break up the initiative of a group of bad guys. You really want some mooks to go as high as they can in initiative.

* Remember folks who are unarmed, flat-footed or using ranged weapons do not threaten (usually). If there's multiple bad guys who win initiative use these guys to get up on the casters and the archers. Don't simply just have both stand in the squares directly in front of the caster/archer, but position them so the caster/archer cannot simply 5ft step away. This really throws a wrench at a lot of players when they cannot 5ft step and cast/full attack.

* Just like when a PC is attacking something with multiple attacks a round, it's sometimes better to attack and then provoke the AoO. If there's a raging, biting barbarian or an unarmed clawing kenku - attack and then move/provoke. Even if it's not trained, try to use Acrobatics to tumble away. You don't want the PCs unloading 3 attacks a round with a full attack when your mook only gets a single attack.

* Move and ready actions. Mooks don't need to charge up on their initiative and soak up a full round counter attack. They can move to cover and then ready for the PCs to come around. You don't need to announce that the mook readied, just that the "mook does something".

* Use your casters to ready actions. Ready to attack a caster PC with that magic missile/acid arrow/etc. This throws off a lot of casters.

* Don't be afraid to attempt a combat maneuver even if the mook isn't good at it. If there's an enlarged barbarian with a greatsword, the bad guys' best shot might be to disarm that barbarian, even if it means provoking in the attempt. Have the second mook pick up the greatsword from that non-threatening barbarian and use it back on the player. Remember if the first mook fails (and dies to the AoO) that the second mook can usually try without an AoO (since the PC will likely lack Combat Reflexes). Ultimately bad guys do better with these crazy gambles since they have nothing to lose (they are almost always fated to lose).

* Don't forget to use the consumables on bad guys. If they are hurt, they should 5ft step or withdraw and use that potion.

* Have mooks use an Intimidate check to demoralize on a PC with a low Wisdom. A level 1 fighter who dumped to a 7 or 8 Wisdom can be demoralized by rolling a 9 or 10. A simple mook can do this from range, which leads to some great RP usually, and rolling a 15 or higher can even result in it lasting multiple rounds. And this is from a mook with a 10 Charisma and no ranks in the skill!

* In some cases, don't fully announce every action a group of mooks guarding their wizard BBEG is taking. If the combat begins and an archer hits Mook #1 for damage, and Mook #1 is still alive, have that mook take a Total Defense action as the party will likely employ focus fire tactics. Don't announce the Total Defense, just calculate that action in your head. Have the Mook #2 and Mook #3 aid Mook #1 by rolling attacks vs AC10 boosting his AC by 6. At tier 4-5, this can take a random guard in armor and a shield up to the high 20s in AC. For some bosses, if they are being focus fired, this can bump them into the 30s. Even for the raging barbarian who attacks at +12-14 at this tier, this can turn their required roll to hit to an 18+ from a 12+ and radically change a fight.

Hope this helps!

Sczarni 4/5

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When prepping, use highlighters.... here's what I Do:

Blue: environmental hazards which will effect the fight (fog, darkness, ect)
Yellow: things to use vs melee
Pink: things to use vs casters
Green: General spells abilities i don't want to forget

Underline in pen: Spells or items I need to look up later and print out and then highlight appropriately

1/5 Venture-Captain, Germany–Hannover

I´m surely not the most challenging GM at this point.
What i decided lately is, with regular players and more experienced ones, to have a total ban on metagaming talk, also forcing a division between Player and character knowledge. Next is cutting down turn coaching between players, except for new players. Talking out of your turn must be something realistic, if allowed at all. Flatfooted and surprised person don´t talk at all.
If there is audible communication which NPC´s can understand, they of course get that information too when they can technically hear it.
Players get tripped, disarmed, dirty-tricked and conditioned as much as possible. They are fighting evil after all.

Problem are the poorly scripted tactics often and things like charging players one-hit critting the endboss. That occured several times now and is soooo anticlimatic. So much, i´m thinking about surprise round tactics.
Most people here would say, appearing is already an surprise round action.
I begin to see that different for example.


I tend to run homespun games, not very many adventure paths for me. I often have players complaining about the "difficulty" of fights, so when I opened up this thread I was curious about what I was going to find.

What I have in fact found, is that a lot of my encounters are reasonable, and I'm going to have to start telling my players to suck it up. I've had to be very careful of power creeping their encounters too high, as they have a fairly proficient party in eliminating enemies. They have two people who excel at dealing with multiple, weaker targets, and two who excel in dealing with single, stronger targets, (Negative Energy pulsing Cleric, Illusion/Enchantment Wizard, Monk, Gunslinger). At first I found myself a little overwhelmed, because some monsters I threw up against them to be hard, they made into a "cakewalk", and others I thought they would do with ease, they overreacted to and nearly died. (I.E., throw them up against a Hydra, it dies in 2 rounds. Go against a Gelatinous Cube, two of them almost die.)

I've found that they key to being a challenging (but fun) DM is to find a balance between managing expectations and reality. Opponents the PC's don't expect to deal with or have trouble with can often be the most deadly, like a herd of Bison. Enemies that they expect and prepare for properly will often give them a higher edge, unless that enemy is capable of making equal preparations.

Also, templates. Ample use of templates. The players may know about the race/monster/etc with an appropriate check, but they should never know all there is to know about what said monster is capable of.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

One thing that I have started doing at my tables is preventing them from saying "I have x-hit points left" Doing so tells the bad guys which PC to focus fire on. This forces the team healer to take risks and use consumables more often than what they normally would.

Liberty's Edge 2/5 *

Porter: I hear you. For years (basically since I started dming) I had no problem with people saying 'I only have X hitpoints left'. Its just what I had always done and I guess I probably was taught it by another dm.

Then I started to do the whole 'Please dont tell the rest how many hp you are on', and while for a while I thought I was being slightly cruel, Ive managed to keep that going.

Dark Archive 4/5

Synergy is the big thing, find abilities and tricks that synergise with how the BBEG is built do you have more reach than the PCs? consider using your AoO's as trips to prevent them getting in, then full attack them while they are prone and 5 foot back (preventing any counter attacks).

Minimise the number of attacks you take compared to the amount of attacks you put out. Block charge lines with weaker minions slowing cavaliers and pouncing eidolons/AC's and Barbarians.

Are you a flying archer? if so fly at 90-100 feet (still under 1 range increment for your composite longbow but now you are at 2-10 range increments for a gunslinger). You lose the benefits of Point Blank shot (-1 to hit and damage) they take a -4 minimum and are not targeting touch AC unless they burn grit, you might possibly completely prevent them from shooting (if they are using a 10ft range weapon).

Use what you are given to your advantage, can you slow a couple of PCs down for a couple of rounds? can you soften them up before a big AoE? (causing them to actually be afraid of an AoE that normally would not hurt that much).

Are you demons with greater teleport and room to move? if so withdraw in different directions and all teleport to the one area next round (catching a single PC off guard if they split up to take you all at once).

Try and make the action economy suit you rather than the players.

With summoning spells consider the 1d3 of the lower list more than the 1 of the higher list, you get more bang for your action (1 round for 3 new bodies all with solid hp), try picking up summons with good SLA's or Auras (like 1d3 Hezrou from SM9, or 1d3 Bebiliths from SM8, Succubi from SM7 etc).

Confusion is a powerful spell (bypasses protection from evil and can take multiple PC's out of the fight by making them fight each other while the cleric has to waste his heals keeping them up).

Basically you take the standard rule of "Action economy is king" and you push it to the maximum getting as many effective actions as possible in a round.

Have the casters hold actions until their strikers are in position, (A hold person before the PC's are in position sounds nice but is not effective, a hold person after the PC's are in full attack range of your minions can be lethal even if they just full attack him).

The problem with becoming a harder GM is watching 2-3 PC's suddenly die at round 7-8 because you have been beating on them all after killing the cleric earlier by accident, as smarter creatures target the people with holy symbols first remember to ask all the players what they look like at the start.

Shadow Lodge 3/5

That Porter Kid wrote:
One thing that I have started doing at my tables is preventing them from saying "I have x-hit points left" Doing so tells the bad guys which PC to focus fire on. This forces the team healer to take risks and use consumables more often than what they normally would.

This is starting to derail a bit, but I really disagree with this being used as "challenge".

The reason you announce how many hp you're on, is because hit points are an abstract of how badly wounded you are. If you visualise it, you can see how badly wounded a party member is. In Pathfinder, you can't unless you talk about it.

If you're really against it, you can say "barely scratched/lightly wounded/seriously wounded/critical/about to die", but even then I think that's sort of hardcore play. If someone is on -13 hp out of his -14 con, metagaming a bit to help them survive is far more beneficial to the game as a whole, unless you're all playing hardcore.

Shadow Lodge 3/5

wakedown's points above highlight it's more about knowing good Pathfinder tactics than just knowing Pathfinder rules.

It's one thing to know that your rook can move horizontally and vertically as far as it wants. It's another to know how to effectively use it with a queen because the enemy king can only 5ft step.

Dark Archive 3/5

Perception checks are sometimes ignored, especially if a GM is running the scenario cold.
In a dungeon crawl, for example, an inexperienced GM could run all encounters like compartments.. isolated fights.
If perception checks were done, for the other baddies, to hear the sounds of battle, or a scream, or just a spell being vocalised, they could prepare, alert others, and the difficulty could escalate.
That could also fall outside of the described tactics, and allow the GM to come up with the most logical (or in character) tactic for that situation.

Dark Archive 3/5

Sometimes, one of the most powerful ability a ennemy can have, is a scream for help... or a death cry than can be heared through doors(+5 to perception dc) or walls (+10 to perception dc)

The Exchange 5/5 RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

A character is at 3 out of his total 42 hit points. Can another character tell?

With a Heal check, yes. With deathwatch, yes. That's what the spell is for.

In Pathfinder, do all characters get deathwatch for free?

For me, that depends on the kind of game the PCs want to play. If they want a role-playing session with mysteries and NPC interaction, where winning fights isn't the focus, I don't worry about that leel of tension. If they want to pit their finely-honed combat machines against the opposition, then yes, it becomes an issue.

--

And, as often as I can, I will not let players know how far down their unconscious allies are from death, without a Heal check. I will keep track of that, thanks.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East

When I GM at other places, I do all right. The baddies are roughly on par, though I've got plenty of room to improve.

I've got specific regular players though that build to make everything a cakewalk. I've talked to them about toneing it down, and they don't. And I think their power-gaming is driving away new players.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

thistledown wrote:

When I GM at other places, I do all right. The baddies are roughly on par, though I've got plenty of room to improve.

I've got specific regular players though that build to make everything a cakewalk. I've talked to them about toneing it down, and they don't. And I think their power-gaming is driving away new players.

If they are dominating play, and not letting the newer players shine at all, you have the right to disinvite them from your game day. Invite them to start their own game day.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Baltic

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I really wish this thread was called "How to become a more challenging GM", we've got enough difficult GMs already! ;-)

Scarab Sages 4/5

"non-combat" Effects affecting combat... let me explain.

Almost without fail, each time a run an encounter and it seems like it should be more difficult that it was, it was because I left something out (this does not include the one shot crit, or when players do somehting out of the box). An environmental effect, cover, concealment, lighting, terrain, movement, wind, surprise, feats, special abilities, etc.

Being familiar with the encounter, the environment, and the NPCs are in my opinion is the best way to make sure you can run those encounters at their full potential, which may or may not actually challenge the group playing, heh.

As a side this also should increase your ability to adjust tactics (when allowed) to some what adjust the difficulty of the encounter.

5/5

On environmental effects, most GMs ignore lighting. Sure, the party may have ioun stones and such, but that won't help in the first round when they are shooting arrows at the enemy who has concealment. Paying attention to the little details like this can make easy encounters more challenging.

Many tables don't run the climbing rules strictly for another example. Normal climbing is 1/4 the person's base speed and they must have two hands free.

Very few follow the rules for flying exactly.

Heck, simply enforcing the actions required to draw and stow items can make a big difference in action economy. Put your weapon and shield away to climb up out of the pit? That's not too quick. Want to draw and drink a potion? Okay, that's both a move and a standard action that each provoke. Draw a potion and give it to a downed ally? That will take one move action and a full-round action - so this can't be done in one round.

The Exchange 5/5

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I don't thing you want to be a Difficult GM. You want to make the scenarios more of a challange, right?

My advice? Run the same scenario more than once... and run them close together if you can.

First time you run something - you're learning what the NPCs can do. Run it a second and your NPCs are more familiar - esp. if you reviewed them after the fight the first time. "Oh! He could have done THAT?" A Dry run of the combats - just pushing figures around on the map may help you. put some of your PCs vs. situation and figure what the NPCs would do against them... (try this when other people are NOT around, otherwise you may get a rep of "playing with yourself..."). The more you run a scenario, the better your NPCs will do.

Running the NPCs for the first time is like picking up someone elses PC that you never have seen before and trying to run him in a game. (IMHO, this is one of the reasons the Generics get such a bad rep. People are unfamiliar with them...) Most scenarios you have lots more than one PC you are picking up for the first time...

First Steps example:

I've run First Steps I four or five times. (played it a number too)... I could almost run it without the write up. The Rats in the Pelican can be a terror to the right group. Really. First time I ran it, the players could have slept thru the encounter. The fourth? I had them on the edge of thier seats (and two of them had played it before and knew what they faced!).

The Exchange 4/5

Learn combat maneuver's many monsters are good at them. Tower shields don't stop grapple attempts.

Reach AoO's against charging opponents are better as trips.

Multiple rogues moving at once Move "ready to attack when ally flanks" both rogues get sneak attack

Someone declares full attack that provokes - Disarm.

Try to syphon the groups into situations to increase difficulty. IE melee enemies should try to create 1v1 fights.

Withdraw combat maneuver, don't take those melee Full attacks. Especially if your enemies are faster, withdraw+reach attackers = perma trips :)

Use power attack.

Think about your spells. Use them optimally.

Roll multiple combats together (see nanaika's post)

Most of the time with lower level tables, hard fights involve enemies that player's don't have the tools to deal with.

3/5

Chris Mortika wrote:

A character is at 3 out of his total 42 hit points. Can another character tell?

With a Heal check, yes. With deathwatch, yes. That's what the spell is for.

In Pathfinder, do all characters get deathwatch for free?

For me, that depends on the kind of game the PCs want to play. If they want a role-playing session with mysteries and NPC interaction, where winning fights isn't the focus, I don't worry about that leel of tension. If they want to pit their finely-honed combat machines against the opposition, then yes, it becomes an issue.

--

And, as often as I can, I will not let players know how far down their unconscious allies are from death, without a Heal check. I will keep track of that, thanks.

Well a player should be able to realize how wounded they themselves are and as a free action tell the team they are hurting.

I agree for characters in the negatives. I constantly interrupt players that try to say their negatives, with "do you have heal?".

If the player is awak though he should be able to communicate he is injured.

Dark Archive 4/5

True but by communicating that they are injured everyone in the fight is then aware of it (as long as they speak the language the PC used to say he was hurt, I tend to pick languages that very few people speak for that reason)

The biggest thing that has improved my tactical GMing is untrained combat maneuvers, trip if I have reach, disarm if an archer decides to take the AoO from me to fire in melee.

The harder part is turning it off, running first steps as written I managed to TPKO (no deaths though) the party without a single one of the opposing party getting hurt, I waved Ledford's crit and just ruled it was a normal hit still took down the tank, use of the gang up feat as listed in the tactics took down the secondary tank in 1 hit as I rolled max on the rapier sneak attack crit dropping him from full to near death after that it was just cleanup vs the squishies as their clerics channel couldnt bring anyone conscious it did stabilise them.

5/5 **

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

May I join this club?

I recently ran two 7-11 scenarios (Portal of the Sacred Rune and Below the Silver Tarn) for 6 players in the 10-11 Tier. 4 of the same characters played in both scenarios. Both of the scenarios looked truly killer on paper, but come gametime the groups pretty much wiped the floor with the enemies and hardly broke a sweat. I was able to challenge them at lower and midlevels, but it seems like the best I can do lately is get one or two of the characters scared.

I can see a few factors contributing to this:
- the players are fairly optimized since they often play together (local gaming group).
- I seldom run the same scenario twice since I usually run for the local gamers who already played them. I don't get the chance to explore the monster tactics other than as written.
- I'm not facile enough with high tier to best use or remember all the monsters abilities.
- Early mods written for 4 characters are no match for 6. Even some of the later seasons have 1 creature per encounter which doesn't hold up against 6+ other actions per round (companions, familiars, etc).

I am looking toward running Eyes of Ten for our higher level regular players later this year. I am worried what a 6 man table will do and if I can offer a good experience.

5/5

waltero wrote:
I am looking toward running Eyes of Ten for our higher level regular players later this year. I am worried what a 6 man table will do and if I can offer a good experience.

I would recommend limiting Eyes of the Ten to just 4 or 5 players if possible, especially if they are optimized. That will also give them each more game time to be in the spotlight.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

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I personally think the best way to practice for running high tier, is to play a lot of high tier.

2/5 *

Andrew Christian wrote:
I personally think the best way to practice for running high tier, is to play a lot of high tier.

This. I learn something new each time I play high tier. As a player you also have more time to ask the other players questions without slowing down the game.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Jason S wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
I personally think the best way to practice for running high tier, is to play a lot of high tier.

This. I learn something new each time I play high tier. As a player you also have more time to ask the other players questions without slowing down the game.

Yup, and if you really pay attention, and have a high-tier savvy GM, then you can learn what tactics work and what don't, based on what happens at the table.

You know what savvy high-tier players typically attempt (because by practice they learn what works and what doesn't), and you can see what tactics a high-tier savvy GM uses to challenge a high-tier savvy table.

And don't be afraid to make your own mistakes as a player (and GM).

Ultimately, practice is what is necessary to become good at high-tier play or GM'ing.

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