How to Challenge an Invincible Monk


Advice

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Liberty's Edge

I have a player in my game who is currently a level 10 flowing monk with the Guardian mythic path. I'm having serious difficulty challenging this character in my sessions.

He is a monk who focuses on fighting defensively, has taken the Crane Style feat train, Deflect Arrows (soon to be the Mythic version), and sports a 34 AC most combats.

I have put Mythic Flaws into play in my game, and his is Mercurial Mind (becomes confused for 1d4 rounds after being hit with a critical and/or failing a will save) but he has an excellent will save being a monk, and any hits that get through his AC (usually have to be crits) he can deflect. He can also use the Redirect ability in his archetype to make reflex saves against attacks (being a Dex focused monk this isn't much of an issue). He Finally, because he is a Guardian he can use Parry Spell to avoid rays and ranged touch attacks, and he can use Absorb Blows on any attacks that manage to get past all of his other defenses...

I realize that taking away his Dex with things like fienting and surprise rounds are possible, however he has excellent Sense Motive and Perception skill modifiers.

I don't want to kill him, it would be wrong of me to punish him for building an excellent character who is also a vibrant personality in the campaign. I would still like to challenge him, so what options are available to me?

Shadow Lodge

Something I have noticed about monks is, there Flat-Footed Sucks. Give him an invisible stalker fight perhaps with items around the room (Like flour) to help him find them. Of course, if there is an arcane caster the stalkers will be screwed, but if you can give them spring attack to keep them moving around the room, you can make it so the caster can't find where to place glitterdust.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Hm, how is his offense? I got a player who also has focused his character very much on defense, but since his offense output is pitiful, I just ignore him and focus on the real damage dealers.

Also, invisibility. Monks don't get access to Uncanny Dodge and options to see invisibility, so that takes a lot out of their repertoire.

Sovereign Court

Is he even contributing offensively? Challenge him to do more by challenging his allies instead. I'm not saying "All enemies ignore him all the time," but after a few swings, it's pretty easy to notice he's nigh impossible to hit, but that guy in the back might be a LOT easier and if he's not blasting off your face with his fists...

EDIT: Augh, I lost init!


Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Perhaps a large enemy who doesn't attack him directly. Smashing the ground around him, throwing splash weapons, and so on. Perhaps a large hydra or fire giant.


I'd love to see his build.


Kot the Protector wrote:
I don't want to kill him, it would be wrong of me to punish him for building an excellent character who is also a vibrant personality in the campaign. I would still like to challenge him, so what options are available to me?

Invisible foes with sneak attack? Played hell with my monk.

How good is his offence? Can he actually do much to the enemy? How is he if they just ignore him?

How is he at range? Could twenty archers give him some problems?

How is his Fort save? is he going to enjoy facing something with contact poison, or that uses damage you have to make a Fort save to avoid?

Foes like Howlers, that hurt you when you hurt them, are nasty. Just tying him down with enemies he can beat but that keep him occupied can reveal his inability to help the rest of the party.

Lastly, how about a high-AC Snake Style-using monk nemesis?


I agree with the others, he's probably amazing defense but that's all he'll be good at. He won't hit anything and if he does, he barely damages it. I'd not worry about it. You don't need to challenge him he's already done that to himself.


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Build and we can tell you more.

Scarab Sages

lol I'm trying to find all the monk hate threads where people talk about how crappy the Monk's AC is.


This only makes me more anxious to play my Flowing Monk. They get so many cool defensive abilities that let them both protect themselves and retaliate with the opponents' strength working against them.

A lot of people are asking about the Monk's offense, but if he's much like my monk, offense isn't largely sacrificed. Unless the opponents get a lot of their def from armor, their ability to flat-foot with AoO helps. If he has an Amulet of Mighty Fists or other means of boosting his attack bonus, he should be able to hit back without much difficulty.

From what I can tell, the Flowing Monk is the strongest when planted right in the middle of the action, surrounded by as many opponents as possible.

Redirection, Elusive Target, Volley Spell, and Ki abilities are all swift/immediate abilities, so make sure he's not trying to use more than one of them each round.

If you can put him against one or two big opponents so it's a lot harder for him to trip or reposition them (maybe they're immune?) and he can't get his bonuses for being flanked. Large creatures with reach and some ability to maneuver or flat foot him should give him trouble. Damage reduction against his bludgeoning damage should help too.

I imagine the monk finds himself trapped in a corridor with two gelatinous cubes closing in on him from both directions. Even if he does Reflex save to avoid getting engulfed, he'll eventually find himself stuck in one of the two, and then he's pinned. I guess he could probably manage to kill one of them if he can deal 4d8 damage before they get him, but maybe you could beef it up with more HP, or rule that hitting it with his bare fists deals acid damage to him, or you could just make them invisible. :P

On the other hand, that would probably kill almost anybody. :P


Talk, talk talk. Let me see a build. =)


I have a monk character that is almost exactly like this.

Some of you guys are wrong, this character has good offense as well, using a weapon or amulet of fists with the Agile weapon enchantment.

Also, Howlers and other creatures that hurt you when you hit them aren't bad at all, especially since they need you to fail a Reflex save, and Reflex is super high (+11 at level 5). So it's not a problem.

He has the following weaknesses:

1) He can't go in front of the party. If he loses initiative, his AC should be around 20, at best. And Crane Style isn't active (swift action needed to activate) so every hit goes through. He'll get smushed (I know I do), he needs time to activate.

2) He probably relies on magical buffs like Mage Armor and Shield to get his AC, and relies on UMD. Make him make all his rolls without rolling a "1". If you have travelling sessions, you often don't know when you're going to get attacked, so you probably don't have any buffs and therefore have a much more normal AC.

3) He is also very weak against grappling. Once you get him into the grapple, he's at -4 Dex and -2 attack, which is -4 to hit and -2 damage total. And he can't get out without Escape Artist and monks don't typically maximize this skill.

4) Multiple Attacks: This PC is dominant if the opponent only get 1-2 attacks per turn, but he's almost as vulnerable as everyone else against multiple attacks.

5) Swarms. I know, cheese.

6) Magic/Spell-Like/Supernatural: Great saves, but he's still affected like everyone else.

One thing I really hate is when the GM will 100% ignore my PC. Every PC knows his abilities. Give me a break. If you want to attack once and then stop attacking, fine, but when NPCs know the abilities of each and every party member and they've never met you, it's just bad GMing. <<< Pet peeve.


Crane style adds to CMD, plus Wisdom, Strength, and Dexterity, class bonus to AC as well as Monk level... I'm failing to see how this guy could be weak to grapple.

10+lvl+Wis Mod+Str Mod+Dex Mod+4(crane)+deflection bonus means he should be at least on par with a non-human fighter against grappling in general if not better.

Grand Lodge

Well I guess my monk is pretty nice. Not as stronger than a Fighter but good in some terms.

Monk Build:

Human Quinggon Monge lvl 20

St 8
Dx 18+2=20
Cn 12
In 10
Ws 15
Ch 7

Traits
- Honored Fist of the Society = +1 Ki Point
- Quain Martial Artist (Quain) = +1 damage unarmed strikes

Feats
1 H-Weapon Finesse, (Improved Graple), Agile Manuevers
2 (Dodge)
3 Defensive Combat Training
5 Crane Style
6 (Improved Disarm)
7 Crane Wing
9 Crane Riposte
10 (Improved Critical)
11 Weapon Focus
13 Toughness
14 (Spring Attack)
15 Improved Iniciative
17 Great Fortitude
18 (Mobility)
19 Skill Focus (Perception)

Ki abilities
4th - Barkskin, 1 ki p
5th - True Strike, 1 ki p
7th - Message, 1 ki p
11th - Share Memory, 0 ki p
12th - Diamond Body (monk ability)
13th - Restoration, 2 ki point
15th - Abundant Step, 2 ki point
17th - Battlemind Link, 4 ki point
17th - Improved Vital Strike, 2 ki point
19th - Tongue of the sun and moon, 0 ki p
20th - Perfect Self

Final stats
Dx = 36 +13 (20 +5lvl +5book+6belt)
Cn = 22 +6 (12 +4book+6belt)
Sb = 26 +8 (15 +5book+6headband)

He has
Nunchaku +5 Allying
Jingasa of the fortunate Soldier
Headband of inspired wisdom +6
Arachnid goggles
Cloak of Resistence +5
Amulet of Mithy Fists Agile
Spectral Shroud
Robes Monk
Belt of Physical Might (Dex and Con +6)
Bracers of Armor +8
Ring of Protection +5
Ring of Foe Focus
Boots of Speed
Manual of Quickness of Action +5
Tome of Understanding +5
Manual of Bodily Health +4
Pale Green Prism (Ioun Stone)
Pale Green Prism (Ioun Stone) Flawed
Dusty Rose Prism (Ioun Stone)

Put the weapon bonus on unarmed strike, with Crane Style, fighting defensively, barkskin, piranha strike and Haste this monk has a flurry:

+33 / +33 / +33 / +28 / +28 / +23 / +23 / +18 2d10+31

Flurry breakdown:

Attack: (18base +13dex +5weapon allying +1focus -1 fighting defensively +1morale +1competence -6 piranha strike +1 haste)
Damage: (13dex +5weapon +1trait +12 piranha strike)

HP 263 (8 +5x19 +6(cons)x20 +20toughness +20lvl)

AC = 60

AC breakdown:

10 +8bracers +13dex +8wis +5deflection +5natural +5monk +1dodge +1 luck (jingasa) +1dodge crane style +2 fighting defensively +1 insight)

CMB +41
CMD +66

Breakdown:

CMB (20lvl + 13dex +5weapon +1focus +1 morale +1competence)
CMD (10 +20HD -1str +13dex +8wis +5monk +5deflection +1dodge +1luck +1dodge crane +2fighting def +1 insight)

Fort 27
Refl 32
Vont 27

He cannot be flanked and against one foe he has +2 on AC and saves. He can also forgo his extra ki attack to gain +4 on AC, totaling +66. He can deflect one hit and make one AoO. He can negate 1 critical hit.

Think about how much bonus on disarm he has with True Strike, nunchaku and improved disarm.

Again, a Fighter can do more damage but I like this build. If someone could improve I would be thankful.

See a Balor Lord (CR25) and make your conclusions.


Abraham spalding wrote:

Crane style adds to CMD, plus Wisdom, Strength, and Dexterity, class bonus to AC as well as Monk level... I'm failing to see how this guy could be weak to grapple.

10+lvl+Wis Mod+Str Mod+Dex Mod+4(crane)+deflection bonus means he should be at least on par with a non-human fighter against grappling in general if not better.

1) You don't add the monk's level to CMD, only CMB.

2) Assuming a 20 point buy, his strength is probably 10.
3) Yes, you add in those other adjustments but typically creatures that like to grapple have strong CMBs, stronger than my ability to resist them. And once I get in them, it's very hard to get out.

The character is good, not unbeatable.


Bomanz wrote:

lol I'm trying to find all the monk hate threads where people talk about how crappy the Monk's AC is.

You did not pay much attention in those threads, didn´t you?


Hm I guess it's possible, I tend to want more strength than that on a monk but not everyone builds the same way.

I always seem to get maneuver training confused... still that's only a 5 point difference over 20 levels... not exactly a huge amount.


Jeferson Lucas wrote:

Well I guess my monk is pretty nice. Not as stronger than a Fighter but good in some terms.

Why your monk is adding his dex to damage? You only have listed a +5 allying nunchaku.


Nicos wrote:
Jeferson Lucas wrote:

Well I guess my monk is pretty nice. Not as stronger than a Fighter but good in some terms.

Why your monk is adding his dex to damage? You only have listed a +5 allying nunchaku.

Amulet of the Mighty Fist, Agile.

But that means he shouldn't get an enhancement bonus to attack and if using the nunchuck he shouldn't get the dex to damage (as you stated).

Basically he flubbed the rules.


Flying enemies? Wizards?

That monk has no chance against most wall spells, try out those or something

Liberty's Edge

He does have Mythic Weapon Finesse, so the Dex focused monk is adding his Dex to damage. His damage output is okay, but most other people in the party outshine him in this regard.

I do not have his character sheet, and he keeps losing it, or else I would post it.

He is currently in a party with a witch, a sorcerer, a paladin, a ranger, and a gunslinger.


Question for the OP:

Will creating a challenge for the monk make game play funner?
I don't mean that as an attack but as a legitimate question. I've played with a lot of folks over the years and some people like to build high AC characters because they enjoy not getting hit or taking damage. And when they do get hit it can ruin their fun.

If this isn't the case with your player then I say introduce an opposing monk. Nothing is funner than a Monk off. Perhaps a Zen Archer or a MOMS.


Kot the Protector wrote:

He does have Mythic Weapon Finesse, so the Dex focused monk is adding his Dex to damage. His damage output is okay, but most other people in the party outshine him in this regard.

I do not have his character sheet, and he keeps losing it, or else I would post it.

He is currently in a party with a witch, a sorcerer, a paladin, a ranger, and a gunslinger.

It has come! The dawn of the dex monk! Accept mythic tiers and know character concept realization!

Liberty's Edge

I just need to know some methods through which I can continue to challenge this character. Not every encounter from here on out is gonna have invisible sneak attackers, but I will have some come in to surprise him and remind him that this adventure is dangerous and that death is a real threat.

I'm definitely planning on his arch-nemesis (his father)being a monk vampire. It's gonna be a monk-off in Ustalav.

Scarab Sages

ArmouredMonk13 wrote:
Something I have noticed about monks is, there Flat-Footed Sucks. Give him an invisible stalker fight perhaps with items around the room (Like flour) to help him find them. Of course, if there is an arcane caster the stalkers will be screwed, but if you can give them spring attack to keep them moving around the room, you can make it so the caster can't find where to place glitterdust.

If you start using too many invisible opponents, he'll just pick up blind fight next time he gets a feat.

Scarab Sages

Marthkus wrote:
Kot the Protector wrote:

He does have Mythic Weapon Finesse, so the Dex focused monk is adding his Dex to damage. His damage output is okay, but most other people in the party outshine him in this regard.

I do not have his character sheet, and he keeps losing it, or else I would post it.

He is currently in a party with a witch, a sorcerer, a paladin, a ranger, and a gunslinger.

It has come! The dawn of the dex monk! Accept mythic tiers and know character concept realization!

Monk of the flowing winds with the full vital strike tree and mythic vital strike.

Scarab Sages

CWheezy wrote:

Flying enemies? Wizards?

That monk has no chance against most wall spells, try out those or something

Mythic character's of any class can either get an innate fly speed or pick up overland flight as an SLA.

I gave my fighter innate fly and saved her spellcasting for other things.


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Kot the Protector wrote:

I do not have his character sheet, and he keeps losing it, or else I would post it.

This sends up so many red flags for me.

Does he keep finding it, or does he "know" his numbers?


Mage Evolving wrote:

Will creating a challenge for the monk make game play funner?

I don't mean that as an attack but as a legitimate question. I've played with a lot of folks over the years and some people like to build high AC characters because they enjoy not getting hit or taking damage. And when they do get hit it can ruin their fun.

If this isn't the case with your player then I say introduce an opposing monk. Nothing is funner than a Monk off. Perhaps a Zen Archer or a MOMS.

Yeah, this is the most important question. Does it really add to the game beyond the GM wanting to make sure he's threatening to someone? Is this what the player would enjoy, or is he having fun just being you know... a tank. If its not screwing up the campaign its probably not a problem that needs to be dealt with.

Kot the Protector wrote:
I don't want to kill him, it would be wrong of me to punish him for building an excellent character who is also a vibrant personality in the campaign. I would still like to challenge him, so what options are available to me?

So... You don't want to punish him, but you do want to surprise him and force him to realize death is a real threat on a character made to take punishment and redirect attacks?


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Social encounters
Chases...
A similar monk build
Moral dilemmas
Enviromental problems

Shadow Lodge

kikidmonkey wrote:
Kot the Protector wrote:

I do not have his character sheet, and he keeps losing it, or else I would post it.

This sends up so many red flags for me.

Does he keep finding it, or does he "know" his numbers?

Challenge him by having him find and give you his character sheet, first. Then we'll talk.


Avatar-1 wrote:
Challenge him by having him find and give you his character sheet, first. Then we'll talk.

Well, that's certainly hostile. Hard to play without a character sheet anyway, so it has to turn up sometime.


Three words: Mirror. of. Opposition.


Meh, anyone can be Invincible without a character sheet. Srsly, you want to challenge him? Get his sheet.


Is it possible that you just send foes with a rather low CR against them?
If he's level 10 with at least 1 Mythic Tier and in a 6 man party, most challenging enemies should be at least CR 11-13, if not higher.

And meele CR 11+ monster should have an about 50% chance to hit AC 34.
For example: CR 11 Stone Golem: +22 Attackbonus, CR 11 Elder Earth Elemental +26 Attackbonus, CR 12 Purple Worm +25 Attack Bonus etc. And those are run of the mill bestiary monster, nothing optimized.
True, with Crane Style they'll have to hit twice in a round to damage him, but that still has a good chance to happen.
Even if you go with the (compared to released monsters laughable low) "expected" attack bonus given for CR 11 in Mythic Adventures, those still give a 25% chance to hit.

I right now can't see how he can be only hit with crits against those attackboni....

And if you are only talking about low CR mooks, those should not be able to hit a "tanky" character that often. That's kinda the point of bulding tanky and he sacrificed probably at least some offense for it.


Challenge the character to a tap dancing competition. Have that be the deciding factor in an encounter.

Does it seem silly? Of course! But it does foster creative challenges for characters with Mythic combat ability.


Bomanz wrote:
lol I'm trying to find all the monk hate threads where people talk about how crappy the Monk's AC is.

Monk hate threads? Never seen them. Seen a lot of "monk is weak, can Paizo improve it please" threads, though. As for Monk AC, it's only bad when the monk is dumping dexterity to try and hit things and deal actual damage. Otherwise, you can build a monk with great AC, and that's never been in doubt, the problem is with the monk's lack of offensive capacity, especially unarmed.

Kot the Protector wrote:
He does have Mythic Weapon Finesse, so the Dex focused monk is adding his Dex to damage. His damage output is okay, but most other people in the party outshine him in this regard.

Mythic is a different ball-game. But another monk is a good foil, especially a qingong that can can truestrike.

sk8r_dan_man wrote:
This only makes me more anxious to play my Flowing Monk. They get so many cool defensive abilities that let them both protect themselves and retaliate with the opponents' strength working against them.

Yes, it's great as long as the enemy attack you or someone next to you.

Marthkus wrote:
It has come! The dawn of the dex monk! Accept mythic tiers and know character concept realization!

...and still be behind the other Mythic characters who didn't need to spend mythic tiers making up for their short-falls...

Liberty's Edge

I sent a CR 14 aberration with 5 attacks each round and he practically solo'd the thing.

Don't get me wrong, this character is one of my favorites in te campaign and I would much rather him survive the game than not, but if he never gets into danger he may get bored.

Also I and another one of the players looked over his character sheet once for an audit and it all checked out fine. He's playing it legal. He's just not very good at holding onto his character sheet.


Limited Wish "I want that monk wear a fullplate with alchemical glue"


Kot the Protector wrote:
if he never gets into danger he may get bored.

Have you spoken to him about that? Sometimes that is the best solution. Sometimes someone has a lot of fun because their character is working as intended, and its not a bad thing at all. Working with your players is usually the best way to do anything imo. Something to think about is that counterbuilding can definitely make things challenging, but its also adversarial and not everyone's up for that. Some people take that pretty badly really.

That said, there are abilities that reduce saves and the like with no save, some he can't crane wing, such as a witch's evil eye, the shatter defenses feat, or anti-paladin auras. An anti-paladin with cornugan smash and a cruel weapon or AoMF can make someone sickened and shaken and also affect them with his auras(Though he'd have to land hits first, but smite and buffs tend to help that). There are also environment issues where the monk has a moment to shine but you can control them, such as wall and pit spells that shape the field(battlefield control spells). You don't get a save against a wall popping up, but you can react to it. Whether those are fun or not for a player varies though.


Kot the Protector wrote:
I would still like to challenge him, so what options are available to me?

All these other answers address how to challenge him mechanically; make his numbers fight these other numbers, put those numbers on a hill with cover to make them bigger numbers, ect, ect. You still may want to do all that, but there's also ethical challenges you can set up to challenge him. You could set up situations where you dare him to change alignment, situations where you introduce sacrifice and hard choices. Use his invincibility against him.

Give them absurdly easy battles, give them the anticipation of a BBEG who inexplicably surrenders, put them on a self doubting path where they feel they're walking into a trap. Then make an exact clone of him to have him fight. Mwha ha ha!


Uncertainty Lich wrote:
You could set up situations where you dare him to change alignment, situations where you introduce sacrifice and hard choices.

Just gotta be careful with non choices. A paladin player is almost always going to pick the good thing to do for example, and most people aren't keen on being forced into falling. Seriously, ask the forum about fall-fall scenarios and watch the fireworks.


MrSin wrote:
ask the forum about fall-fall scenarios and watch the fireworks.

You spelled that wrong, it's called RAGEQUIT.

I agree though, fall-fall situations are probably the most ass-hat thing a GM can do.


MrSin wrote:
Just gotta be careful with non choices. A paladin player is almost always going to pick the good thing to do for example, and most people aren't keen on being forced into falling. Seriously, ask the forum about fall-fall scenarios and watch the fireworks.

I recommend hard choices, not non-choices. The GM is worried the PC will get bored from making easy consequence free choices; attack, go after the next bad guy, ect. There's not much threat of the PC dying, so maybe something else is in order? Just noting there are other strategies to keep things interesting without dwelling on battlefield number crunching. Tempting alignment change is an option, so are sacrificing personal/group goals or choosing to accept a handicap.


Some points:
- If you’re giving mythic levels to an already optimized group, your monsters should be mythic too. Mythic monsters kick ass and you should run them ruthlessly.
- Redirect uses 2 Ki points. That’s expensive! He can’t do that too many times a day.
- Deflect arrows doesn’t work against natural ranged attacks.
- I’m not sure what Absorb Blows does. For all I know this one ability just makes this PC over-the-top.

Thing is, he’s part of a team and just because you challenge him (and make him 100% ineffective), doesn’t mean you’re challenging the team as a whole. And making him ineffective isn’t necessarily fun.

You can’t tell me something like a Glabrezu wouldn’t challenge him at level 10. It should tear him apart. (Hint: If you really wanted to nail him: PW Stun for 1d4 rounds (no save), he’s no longer fighting defensively, dead).

Although annoying (for him), if you don’t attack him most of the time, that’s the biggest kick in the nuts for a defensive PC. The more you attack him, the more useful he is.


Uncertainty Lich wrote:
I recommend hard choices, not non-choices.

I'm sure you didn't mean non-choices, just meant to add to what you said with a little warning. Sometimes its hard to find that sweet spot between a hard choice and a non choice, especially with classes who have mechanical impacts based on alignments(like the monk).


MrSin wrote:
Sometimes its hard to find that sweet spot between a hard choice and a non choice, especially with classes who have mechanical impacts based on alignments(like the monk).

Eh. Worst that happens to an unlawful monk is that they can't take anymore monk levels, not that terrible. Could even set up for an awesome redemption storyline. Maybe there's something worth it to the monk to walk the unlawful path, maybe not. It's more about tempting it than anything else. Working out how to best make a really important decision can be challenging and fun. It doesn't need to be a raw deal bad trade either. That's an extreme example though. There are plenty of tough choices that can affect the PC's relationships to NPCs & factions without being connected to mechanics, but that's an obvious attention grabber.


How about a noncombat encounter? I'm thinking of something like an obstacle course where he needs to use his physical skills -- Acrobatics, Climb, Stealth, and Swim -- to obtain some goal. As a mythic character, he may very will have insanely high skill bonuses. On the other hand, Irori's Testing Grounds or the Uncrossable Perilous Rope Bridge of Kemer-La, as mythic-level challenges, would presumably have mythic-level DCs.

Liberty's Edge

As for the alignment challenges, he will probably be taking the Beyond Morality path ability, which removes your alignment. He no longer has to be lawful to be a monk. The only catch the ability has is that breaking codes of conduct (only really spelled out for paladins)still removes class features.

He may not take it. And to his credit he actually has been playing the dichotomy of being a monk of Irori (LN) who worships Milani (CG) surprisingly well. His character has a lot of conflict, and right after being a bit of a jerk and posh at a party of dignitaries and leaving the party to go adventuring in the sewers I've made him NG from his original LG. I've yet to see if he wants to work back to lawful or not, but I honestly think he will handle most roleplay challenges with unexpected finesse. He's had some of the better roleplay moments in my campaign.

Also he fought a Vemerak on his own, mostly. He dealt solid damage until the rest of the party got to him to help.

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