Tiny battles, and in particular, Tiny vs Tiny

[JHFizban]

First, the text, and I'll bold the most relevant bits:

PRD info about Tiny creatures in combat:

Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can't reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent's square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent. You can attack into your own square if you need to, so you can attack such creatures normally. Since they have no natural reach, they do not threaten the squares around them. You can move past them without provoking attacks of opportunity. They also can't flank an enemy.

Is the AoO provoked specifically because they entered the square? So even if they are adjacent, they can't just 5-foot-step into the occupied square, correct?

If that's the case, then suppose a stirge (Tiny creature) moves from 20 feet away and enters the square of a Medium creature - does it provoke TWICE for this movement? Once for leaving a threatened square (the square immediately adjacent to the enemy just prior to entering the target's space), and then a second time for entering the occupied space? Are these considered two distinct opportunities, so if the target has Combat Reflexes, it can make two AoO attacks on the stirge?

Now, separately, take a situation of Tiny vs Tiny - suppose there are 3 Tiny creatures occupying the same space. If a Tiny creature moves into that space to attack one of them, do they ALL get to make an AoO since the creature entered their space?

Sorry if I'm not explaining myself clearly enough. It's a bit of a weird situation, but it's likely to come up in a weekly game I'm running, since the Wizard has a handful of homunculi he has created, so whenever a Tiny or smaller creature tries to attack them, it might just get pummeled. :)

Good gaming!

[Gauss]

Quetion 1:
RAW: The tiny creature provokes twice, once for moving and once for entering the square.

How I run it: When a Tiny creature moves from 20 feet away and enters the square it provokes only once. This is because I believe the RAI of moving into the square is not a completely separate effect from regular movement. I think it is just to illustrate that you threaten your own space.

Question 2:
RAW: AoOs all around, but I feel this is against RAI.

How I run it: When a Tiny creature enters a square full of other tiny creatures obey the movement rules first and foremost. Did he leave a threatened square? No? Then there is no AoO.

My thoughts:
The whole 'creatures with 0 reach entering a square provokes an AoO' should be done away with as superfluous to movement. They are leaving a threatened space (at 5') so provoke already.

One other thought, 3.X/Pathfinder is built around the small/medium character. The rules can and do start to break down when you get smaller and bigger than that. Some adjudication may be necessary.

- Gauss

[The_Hanged_Man]

Gauss wrote:

One other thought, 3.X/Pathfinder is built around the small/medium character. The rules can and do start to break down when you get smaller and bigger than that. Some adjudication may be necessary.

Q1: You can only provoke once a round for a move action. You can run circles around your opponent, enter their square, whatever, and it doesn't matter how many threatened squares you go through(Unless you pick up Mythic Combat Reflexes or something like that).

Q2: By RAW they get an AOO. But that doesn't make sense to me. In this case I would only grant an AOO to one of them if they were already in the square and moved away.

[JHFizban]

Thank you for your answers and explanations, Gauss. It is just this kind of reasoning that I'm looking for, so that I can determine a fair approach that I can apply as this game goes on and most importantly, be consistent with it.

At the table, without digging into the technicalities of the rules and slowing things down, I gave the Medium size characters one AoO each (though nobody had Combat Reflexes anyway, so that didn't come up); and I didn't give AoOs to the Tiny creatures that were allied with the PCs.

I am also unsatisfied with the idea of each Tiny creature provoking twice, even if that is technically correct, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to make. If the Tiny creature moves adjacent to me and stops, it doesn't provoke, but then if it moves another 5 feet to enter my square, it provokes twice? Doesn't seem right.

I'll gather up whatever viewpoints folks have here, and talk it over with the player who has the handful of homunculi he created, and hopefully we'll come to a decision that will be fair all around, and that won't make things too tedious to keep track of in combat, and most importantly, that maintains our sense of fun when these situations come up. :)

Good gaming!

[JHFizban]

Hanged Man - thanks to you also.

Addressing the first point, about movement: That is what I was wondering, because I know that if I move a circle around an opponent in his threatened area, that movement only provokes once. But it wasn't clear to me if "leave a threatened square" is a different provocation than "enter an occupied square" and if that would technically count as two (I don't think it makes sense to do so), or if it should all just be considered moving.

Still unclear to me: If a stirge (Tiny) is adjacent to a PC, can it 5-foot-step to enter the square without provoking? Or does "enter an occupied square" mean it always provokes when entering the PC's square, no matter if it takes a 5-foot-step or not? In other words, is entering the square simply a movement-based AoO provocation, or is it separate because you're invading my personal space? ;)

[The_Hanged_Man]

The rules are vague here. Personally, I interpret "entering an opponent's square" as equivalent to leaving the threatened square adjacent to it. So...no extra opportunity attacks for entering an occupied square. Similarly, I would allow a tiny critter to 5-step into an occupied square.

[Gauss]

The Hanged Man, unfortunately, entering a person's space is not an AoO due to movement (as it should be). It is a special AoO. I don't agree with the RAW on this but it is the RAW.

Note: I don't use it like this. I pretty much ignore the whole 'enter the square provokes' rule and use the other rules normally. It is much cleaner.

- Gauss

[DM_Blake]

For question one, we are talking about one single thing - crossing the line between two squares. Now, we say "leaving the threatened square" and we say "entering the opponent's square" so it seems like two different things provoking two different AoOs, but really, we have only crossed one line one time, the line between the threatened square and the opponent's square.

One line, one move across that line, one AoO.

For question two, everybody threatens their own square. This is why you get an AoO when tiny creatures enter your square. Tiny creatures are too small (they have 0 reach) to threaten adjacent squares, but they still threaten their own square. Therefore, when a tiny creature enters a square with one or more tiny creatures in that square, it does provoke from all of them.

[Gauss]

DM_Blake,

Is your premise behind your answer to Q1 that you are provoking for entering the square based on the same rules for leaving a square? Ie: They are not separate qualifiers?

- Gauss

[The_Hanged_Man]

Gauss wrote:

The Hanged Man, unfortunately, entering a person's space is not an AoO due to movement (as it should be). It is a special AoO. I don't agree with the RAW on this but it is the RAW.

Note: I don't use it like this. I pretty much ignore the whole 'enter the square provokes' rule and use the other rules normally. It is much cleaner.

- Gauss

I agree that the language between the two qualifiers is not identical, but they functionally mean the same thing. The RAW is vague, but the RAI is pretty clear in my opinion.

[JHFizban]

I guess the whole thing can be boiled down to this:

Can a Tiny creature 5-foot-step to enter an opponent's square to avoid provoking an AoO?

Suppose I wind up in the horrible position of being adjacent to 3 stirges. Can they each 5-foot-step to enter my square and then use Attach to begin draining me without provoking any AoO from me?

I.e., is the AoO provoked by entering a creature's square just due to movement? Or is it because you're "invading their space" and that's somehow different?

[Gauss]

The Hanged Man, while you and I may agree on the RAI it is just our opinion. The way the rules are written (and I ignore this constantly) a tiny creature provokes twice. Ill bet many people house rule this without even thinking about it.

- Gauss

[Taenia]

By RAW entering an opponent's square is not the same as movement so you would provoke twice, once for leaving an opponent's threatened square and once for entering, a five foot step will prevent the former but not the latter.

Also Tiny creatures would not get an AoO for you entering their square, they have reach 0 and the AoO happens before the action so they can not hit you before you enter. So if you enter a square with 3 tiny creatures, you do not suffer from AoOs, if you move out of a square with 3 tiny creatures, without a 5 foot step or withdraw, you provoke from all of them.

Most tiny creatures generally get you by entering your square via Stealth. Dive bombing stirge hitting you from hiding can enter your square without provoking because they have total concealment and you cannot make an AoO in that situation.

[Ximen Bao]

Taenia wrote:

By RAW entering an opponent's square is not the same as movement so you would provoke twice, once for leaving an opponent's threatened square and once for entering, a five foot step will prevent the former but not the latter.

"Taking this five foot step never provokes an attack of opportunity"

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html#_take-5-foot-step

"Never" seems pretty clear. Whether it's moving out of a threatened square or into another, a five foot step never provokes.

[DM_Blake]

No.

Moving out of a threatened square provokes. Taking a 5' step out of a threatened square does not provoke.

Moving into an occupied square provokes. Taking a 5' step into an occupied square provokes.

That last bit seems to be in contention. Maybe taking a 5' step into an occupied square should not provoke. We have a very specific rule that says it always provokes and another very specific rule that says it doesn't provoke; they are directly in conflict with each other.

Here's how I resolve it. Create a stack of rules, starting with the most general rule, then add each relevant rule to the stack. Any time one rule directly conflicts with one other rule, those two rules cancel each other out and remove them, just the two conflicting rules, from the stack. Like this:

1. Leaving a threatened square provokes.
2. Entering an occupied square provokes.
3. Taking a 5' Step prevents you from provoking.

Now you have the stack. Find two rules in direct conflict and remove them. Rule 3 directly conflicts with both rule 1 and 2, but you only negate one pair of rules, so I negate the most common pair, rule 1 and rule 3 (that's how most people almost always use the 5' step rule, avoiding an AoO for leaving a threatened space). So remove those two rules and what you have left is:

2. Entering an occupied square provokes.

That's it, that's all you have left on the stack. Therefore, taking a 5' Step into an occupied square should still provoke.

[Gauss]

I resolve the situation DM Blake illustrated by simply doing away with the tiny creatures provoke when entering a space rule. They already provoke (or dont) when they leave the previous square. They don't need to do so again and I *believe* the rule is there to make it clear that they provoke due to movement. However, if that is the case then it is badly phrased.

Perhaps we should FAQ this. Please consider the following questions and offer your own phrasing that might be better.

Question 1) When a tiny creature moved 20 feet to enter the space of a medium creature how many AoO's will the tiny creature suffer?

1A) One, even though there are two separate conditions it is one move action and a single action can only provoke once.

1B) Two, they are two separate conditions and provoke individually. The tiny creature provokes when it moved from 5' to 0' and then again for entering the occupied space.

Question 2) If a tiny creature 5' steps into the space of a medium creature does it suffer an AoO?

2A) No, even though it has entered an occupied space the 5' step rules take precedence.

2B) Yes, it has entered an occupied space and a 5' step does not provide an exception for this.

- Gauss

[Ximen Bao]

DM_Blake wrote:

No.

Moving out of a threatened square provokes. Taking a 5' step out of a threatened square does not provoke.

Moving into an occupied square provokes. Taking a 5' step into an occupied square provokes.

That last bit seems to be in contention. Maybe taking a 5' step into an occupied square should not provoke. We have a very specific rule that says it always provokes and another very specific rule that says it doesn't provoke; they are directly in conflict with each other.

Here's how I resolve it. Create a stack of rules, starting with the most general rule, then add each relevant rule to the stack. Any time one rule directly conflicts with one other rule, those two rules cancel each other out and remove them, just the two conflicting rules, from the stack. Like this:

1. Leaving a threatened square provokes.
2. Entering an occupied square provokes.
3. Taking a 5' Step prevents you from provoking.

Now you have the stack. Find two rules in direct conflict and remove them. Rule 3 directly conflicts with both rule 1 and 2, but you only negate one pair of rules, so I negate the most common pair, rule 1 and rule 3 (that's how most people almost always use the 5' step rule, avoiding an AoO for leaving a threatened space). So remove those two rules and what you have left is:

2. Entering an occupied square provokes.

That's it, that's all you have left on the stack. Therefore, taking a 5' Step into an occupied square should still provoke.

That rule interpretation method seems arbitrary to the point of randomness.

[fretgod99]

If the encounter I'm running is literally just Tiny v. Tiny, I'd probably redefine the squares so the distances are more relevant to the size of creatures. Treat them as "medium" with respect to one another. Seems like fewer headaches.

Obviously, that doesn't help at all for creatures of disparate sizes.