Ear-Piercing Scream is too good?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

thaX wrote:
The Daze effect is nice, but it is only for one round. In PFS, that is an internaty that may break an encounter or two, but for the most part it is not that big of deal.

It's for one round per casting, not just one round. Our sorcerer spams this in nearly every fight and hasn't regretted it a bit - there's been two or three combats that she completely shut down because the monster/NPC failed all their saves.

Honestly this would be a great spell to get with Extend Spell - it's 1st-level (cheap) and the lack of HD limit + the universality of the dazed condition means you can debuff a lot of monsters that normally have hella immunity, all for some measly 2nd-level slots. A good idea if you're not fighting many humanoids.


Gark the Goblin wrote:
Honestly this would be a great spell to get with Extend Spell - it's 1st-level (cheap) and the lack of HD limit + the universality of the dazed condition means you can debuff a lot of monsters that normally have hella immunity, all for some measly 2nd-level slots. A good idea if you're not fighting many humanoids.

You'd use ear-piercing scream to daze an enemy for two rounds with a second-level spell slot?

How about using it to daze an enemy for the entire combat with a first-level spell slot?


Doesn't work, as per the UM Errata Ear-Piercing Scream's duration is instantaneous.


EPS is first-level, Avoron. It's okay—easy mistake to make with a spell like this. ;P

Slithery D wrote:
15' cone is better than a single target (unless they aren't super close or you only need to effect one)

Get within a five-foot step of a creature with reach and within easy reach of getting surrounded? Color spray doesn't really have much staying power because it repeatedly puts you into harm's way.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
EPS is first-level, Avoron. It's okay—easy mistake to make with a spell like this. ;P

Extended EPS uses a second level spell slot though.

Quote:
Get within a five-foot step of a creature with reach and within easy reach of getting surrounded? Color spray doesn't really have much staying power because it repeatedly puts you into harm's way.

EPS is safer but Color Spray hits more targets. That seems like pretty much a wash.


Color spray, especially when ideally useful at early levels, puts you at risk of dying immediately. One crit and an arcane caster can go negative hard. But it's super powerful at that level for a reason; none of the wizard defenses save mage armor are up. If you have your dex up you'll actually have a decent AC. But as it diminishes and reach its limit, usually at level five, it becomes a decent spell that can hit multiple creatures and stun them. But then the risk is much higher. The threats most susceptible to be taken down by a first level will save spell (really mostly possible if you build to have strong dcs and perhaps use a rod of persistent metamagic) are the strong physical ones. Which is awesome. If you can fly above the enemies and drop it on them, it becomes a situational strong spell.

Ear piercing scream has it's uses as well. It's a caster injurer. Even at 5d5 it's not a terrible amount of damage. But you simply traded your turn for theirs. Unless they are a more dangerous caster than you, it's probably not worth. The one turn limitation and the fact that the daze only last one round only makes it okay. It's slow scaling hurts it.

Snowball is far more useful at higher levels and is generally the superior spell to both except at lower levels, but it's still quite good. Fort save is tougher, because the things you most want to stagger usually have a pretty good fort save. But it still had uses, scale to 5d6 better and has no spell resistance. It hits touch ac, but chances are you'll have a very decent dex and be able to hit the touch ac of the larger creatures so it makes a nice cheap damage dealer if you've thrown down some battlefield control and don't want to waste too many more spells in the encounter. Magic missile is fine for this too, but doesn't have the staggered condition. It also does not ignore spell resistance.

Grease target reflex saves, can force a move action to stand and permit a number of attacks of opportunity if used right. It can also clog charging lanes, protect a square in front of you, or force an enemy to drop its weapon or rod, etc. It can also help your allies escape grapples. Maybe the most versatile first level spell in the game.

There are many other spells at first level arguably more useful and strong than ear-piercing scream. Notably, heightened awareness, mage armor, and protection from evil.

Of course none of the matters once you get access to the pit line of spells, glitterdust, blindness/deafness (a caster destroyer), stinking cloud. Those are some of the true early level battle enders. Pits plus clerics, pits plus golems and you're having a good day. Or at least dividing and conquering. Also summoning is ridiculous useful from SM II on.

Ear-piercing scream, definitely not too good. In fact it gives evocation a nice second signature spell at early levels and is not more powerful or useful than many other options.

(But I agree with everyone who says the daze monster hd cap is ridiculous, the only caveat being that it targets what is often a mid level melee monsters' worst save; but you're trading your turn and a second level spell to daze them for one turn. Pits put you in pits until you can climbing or many rounds later. So yeah, there's no need for HD cap, unless maybe you bump it to 10-12)


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Quote:
Extended EPS uses a second level spell slot though.

Oh, I'm a tool.


I made a cleric of Dispater using variant channeling rules once... If you hate ear piercing scream, what about a scaling DC 30ft emanation that can have its DC boosted for 1 round of dazing everything within range combined with more damage than ear piercing scream?

It doesn't make a channeling cleric any easier to play, but it's a one-trick pony that is still worth a lot on top of being a full caster with d8 HD. Now with Horus you can do it without the aura of LE too.


Squiggit wrote:
Doesn't work, as per the UM Errata Ear-Piercing Scream's duration is instantaneous.

No, its duration is "instantaneous; see text." Upon seeing the text, it is then made clear that although the damage is instantaneous, the daze effect has a duration of one round. This is clearly greater than instantaneous, so Lingering Evocations applies. If this weren't the case, not only would the spell not benefit from the Extend Spell feat, but it would also be immune to dispelling.


You're right, it probably can't be Extended or dispelled.

Though either way, Generation says "A spell with a duration greater than instantaneous". EPS is still instantaneous, it's just an instantaneous spell that applies a debuff.


I can't find the quotes right now. But there was a thread a while back discussing this. iirc: there were a couple of developers that weighed in on the discussion. Eventually most agreed.

It is an instantaneous spell that applies a condition.
The condition has a duration and follows the normal rules for that condition.
You can manipulate that condition as normal. Remove it with a mercy, extend it's duration by re-applying the condition, amplify it with something else (seems like I remember something that turns a daze into a stun), etc...


I wonder how people would react to this ability if it weren't a wizard spell.

Let's consider this house rule: a fighter who spends a one-time fee of 50 gp (analogous to the cost of scribing a spell in a spell-book) can turn any one attack per round they make into a save-or-be-dazed effect. Anyone who fails the save is dazed, anyone who doesn't fail the save still takes damage from the fighter's attack.
Oh, and the attack targets touch AC instead of normal AC.

Is it overpowered?


Now, let's be fair. They can do this something like seven times a day, and it takes a standard action to do. Spell resistance applies. Instead of normal damage, the Fighter does 1d6/two levels, but it bypasses DR.


Maneuvermoose wrote:

I wonder how people would react to this ability if it weren't a wizard spell.

Let's consider this house rule: a fighter who spends a one-time fee of 50 gp (analogous to the cost of scribing a spell in a spell-book) can turn any one attack per round they make into a save-or-be-dazed effect. Anyone who fails the save is dazed, anyone who doesn't fail the save still takes damage from the fighter's attack.
Oh, and the attack targets touch AC instead of normal AC.

Is it overpowered?

Monks have stunning fist which is even better (except for the touch attack part). Also, to be comparable to the spell, it should require a standard action.


Maneuvermoose wrote:

I wonder how people would react to this ability if it weren't a wizard spell.

Let's consider this house rule: a fighter who spends a one-time fee of 50 gp (analogous to the cost of scribing a spell in a spell-book) can turn any one attack per round they make into a save-or-be-dazed effect. Anyone who fails the save is dazed, anyone who doesn't fail the save still takes damage from the fighter's attack.
Oh, and the attack targets touch AC instead of normal AC.

Is it overpowered?

Well, would you consider giving a fighter an autohit attack overpowered? Because wizards have one of those too, and have going back a very, very long time.

And, as someone has already mentioned, monks get something like that, and with a scaling DC rather than a mostly static one.

Sovereign Court

whew wrote:
Maneuvermoose wrote:

I wonder how people would react to this ability if it weren't a wizard spell.

Let's consider this house rule: a fighter who spends a one-time fee of 50 gp (analogous to the cost of scribing a spell in a spell-book) can turn any one attack per round they make into a save-or-be-dazed effect. Anyone who fails the save is dazed, anyone who doesn't fail the save still takes damage from the fighter's attack.
Oh, and the attack targets touch AC instead of normal AC.

Is it overpowered?

Monks have stunning fist which is even better (except for the touch attack part). Also, to be comparable to the spell, it should require a standard action.

All martials can also get Dazing Assault which, while not targeting touch AC, doesn't require any additional action from them.

Admittedly - Dazing Assault is pretty darned awesome.

Sovereign Court

As a Spell Warrior (best Skald archetype), we don't get all the spells you fancy Wizards get.

At first level, EPS and Chord of Shards are probably the best damage-dealing spells around for us.


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Razata wrote:

As a Spell Warrior (best Skald archetype), we don't get all the spells you fancy Wizards get.

At first level, EPS and Chord of Shards are probably the best damage-dealing spells around for us.

What is the need to post in a 1.5 year old thread? like I have no idea what you're talking about because I don't want to read this old thread to see the context of your post.


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