School evocation [sonic]; Level bard 1, inquisitor 1, sorcerer/wizard 1, witch 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one creature
Duration instantaneous; see text
Saving Throw Fortitude partial (see text); Spell Resistance yes
You unleash a powerful scream, inaudible to all but a single target. The target is dazed for 1 round and takes 1d6 points of sonic damage per two caster levels (maximum 5d6). A successful save negates the daze effect and halves the damage.
I was looking at spells for my first level wizard and I saw ear-Piercing Scream. I think that it's far too good as a first level spell because it deals not only sonic damage but it also does 1d6 damage. Does anyone else think this way? If I were to be DMing I would say it does 1d4 instead of 1d6. thoughts?
It doesn't bother me, especially the damage. 5d6 max at level 10 is nothing. The daze rider effect is where most of the appeal here comes from I think, but hey it's a first level spell so the save is fairly easy.
|
It is only OP if you have creatures with bad fort saves and/or weakness to sonic. As chaoseffect said, 5d6 at 10th level isn't all that good. Think of it like this
Wizard:I do 5d6 points of damage, make a fort save
GM:I roll a 1
Wizard:He is Dazed for 1 round
GM:Fighter, your turn
Fighter:38, do I hit?
Gm:Yes
Fighter:I do 6d6+x damage with my Impact Greatsword because Vital Strike.
Magic Missile does the same amount of damage, except a level earlier. (5d4+5 is basically the same as 5d6 damage)but never fails. And I think force is a little better than sonic.
Ear piercing scream does the same damage but inconsistently. Good Fort Saves are quite common, so you'll often fail and deal half damage. However, dazing an opponent for 1 round is very nice, basically shutting them down.
I'd probably use Ear-piercing scream for an Evoker taking Spell Focus and GSF. But I wouldn't call it overpowered. I've seen it in action too many times to think of it as broken.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The range and inevitability of my Magic Missile disagrees with your assessment of EPS's relative power level, and my Charm Person'd new best friend agrees as well.
The gaggle of enemies I put to Sleep would also disagree, but they're, well, sleeping.
Coup de grace, anyone?
[And if you're discussing houseruling it, that's got it's own forum]
It's a nice spell, probably top 1/2 of what's available, but it's not a power breaking one for spell level 1.
The range and inevitability of my Magic Missile disagrees with your assessment of EPS's relative power level, and my Charm Person'd new best friend agrees as well.
The gaggle of enemies I put to Sleep would also disagree, but they're, well, sleeping.
Coup de grace, anyone?[And if you're discussing houseruling it, that's got it's own forum]
It's a nice spell, probably top 1/2 of what's available, but it's not a power breaking one for spell level 1.
Ear-Piercing Scream is actually a 1st level spell I'd consider to be decent even at higher levels. Magic Missile eventually feels kinda negligible. Charm Person isn't quite as mind control-y as people think. Sleep stops being useful once an enemy hits 5HD. But having an ok chance to make a high level caster lose his turn with a first level spell is handy.
Ear-Piercing Scream is actually a 1st level spell I'd consider to be decent even at higher levels. Magic Missile eventually feels kinda negligible. Charm Person isn't quite as mind control-y as people think. Sleep stops being useful once an enemy hits 5HD. But having an ok chance to make a high level caster lose his turn with a first level spell is handy.The range and inevitability of my Magic Missile disagrees with your assessment of EPS's relative power level, and my Charm Person'd new best friend agrees as well.
The gaggle of enemies I put to Sleep would also disagree, but they're, well, sleeping.
Coup de grace, anyone?[And if you're discussing houseruling it, that's got it's own forum]
It's a nice spell, probably top 1/2 of what's available, but it's not a power breaking one for spell level 1.
Given you don't see value in not being within step and hit range of high level monsters, see no use in, forget mind control, making someone really like you, and think a spell that from 1-4 is encounter winning isn't good because after that it's useless, all for a spell with negligable range, damage, and a save that will be strong on things that will be in it's range... we'll probably need to agree to disagree here.
If you're judging 1st level offensive spells by planning on using them at 10+... meh, we apply different standards to our spell selection.
At higher levels if your method of interupting an enemy caster is a 1st level short range spell, your knowledge of what's available in the 5 classes that can take EPS is... perhaps in need of expanding, and te casters you're fighting aren't very intelligent or wise, as casters should be.
I'm not saying it's useless or bad, just if youthink it's better than staple Blue-Green spells we just aren't going to agree and I question if you've tried how it works at higher levels, or played it on the three prime casters that can take it.
I will give you that, to a melee bard or inquisitor, it could have some use as you suggest... but those aren't the best builds, nor is this really the best ranged choice, fo those classes. They'd have better interupts by then, baring fights they were REALLY resource drained.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I never said Charm Person is a bad spell, but people seem to think it does more than it does... plus there's also the fact that if you have to deal with whoever you managed to charm again after it wears off they might not be happy if they realized you essentially roofied them. As for range, you're probably pretty safe with any spell that's not touch if you have your party in front of you, but yeah longer distance is better if the area you're in allows it.
I also never said EPS is the best or only option to stop a caster, but that I could see it holding more value later on around the time most first level offensive spells fall off if you aren't a Magus. A level 10 wizard has a +3 base to fort, and if he's an NPC he probably doesn't have terrible high con, Greater Fortitude, or a cloak of resistances; it has a decent chance to get the Daze and is a budget option.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's just not overpowered.
1st level spell, best thing about it (Daze) is negated by low-DC Save.
There already is the Cantrip Daze which covers the strongest part of the spell, at 1 less Save DC and no damage.
At low levels EPS just gives an additional 1d6 (save for half) with 1 higher DC over Daze, for using a real spell slot.
1d6/2level Sonic damage, but that's halved by the low-DC Save. SR: Yes.
Compare to Shocking Grasp 1d6/level Electricity (scales twice as fast), NO Save, Touch with bonus vs. Metal Armor.
Sure, they both have the same cap, but by the time you reach the cap with EPS (10th level) most opponents will routinely pass the Save,
Shocking Grasp has no Save and so the only thing that really reduces it is SR (which also applies to EPS).
Burning Hands does 1d4/level Fire, Save for Half, but vs. an Area (Cone) so multi-target damage that works vs. Invisible/Stealth.
(it's also useful for dealing with a relatively common enemy: Trolls with Regeneration/Fire)
Sure, if you build around it, you can get some good usage out of it. Same for most spells.
But anything you're doing to make this more effective also applies to Daze Cantrip.
If the target somehow fails the Save at high level, 5d6 sonic damage is unlikely to MATTER vs. the Daze effect anyways,
Daze on it's own would probably already 'kill' them by making them lose out on a turn.
|
If I understand right. It never even does 2d6 damage till level four. It is not an extra d6 every additional two levels. It is per 2 levels. That us why it takes till 10 to max put instead of 9th. The usual reduction in sonic damage is when there is an exact equivalent with another energy type like a d6 energy on a weapon or the Psionic powers that you pick the energy as you manifest ie the old orb spells of 3.5.
|
|
If I understand right. It never even does 2d6 damage till level four. It is not an extra d6 every additional two levels. It is per 2 levels.
No, by level 3. You get access to the spell at level 1, then another 2 caster levels puts you at level 3, and it increases to 2d6.
Increases again at levels 5,7 and 9. This is the same as magic missile. Compare it to fireball, which increases every level.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't think that's how it works. It says 1d6 per two levels for EPS; lvl / 2, round down. Notice how Magic Missile clearly spells out what levels it increases. That level of detail happens when it is non-standard.
Not the same, for exactly the reason he wrote:
Magic Missile: For every two caster levels beyond 1st, you gain an additional missile—two at 3rd level, three at 5th, etc.
Ear-Piercing Scream: 1d6 points of sonic damage per two caster levels
It doesn't repeat the same text as magic missile 'every two caster levels beyond 1st'.
'1d6 per two caster levels': CL 2 = 1d6, CL3 = 1d6 (basically 1 and 1/2 'two caster levels'), CL 4 = 2d6 (two 'two caster levels')Suggesting it increases at level 3 is increasing faster than the clear mathematical formula '1d6 per two caster levels', you don't round up by default.
Per RAW, you don't even do any sonic damage at caster level 1, as I'm not aware of any 'minimum 1' general rule.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It is overpowered as flip. Objectively.
First, it deals 1d6 damage per two levels. At second level, that damage makes it arguably about as good Shocking Grasp: Three points less damage, but it's a ranged attack and the target takes some damage no matter what.
The damage falls behind later on (4d6 vs. 2d6 at level 4, 5d6 vs. 2d6 at level 5, 5d6 vs. 3d6 at level 6), then evens out when they both hit their caps, meaning that, based on damage alone, Ear-Piercing Scream is objectively better than Shocking Grasp at 10th level onwards and pretty much on par with it up until that point. Mages might still prefer it simply for the half-damage caveat (which Evasion can't cancel out) and that invaluable ranged component.
Second, it deals sonic damage. This is objectively the second-best energy type in the game, not counting "scalding". Yrthaks notwithstanding. This puts the spell easily on-par with spells like Shocking Grasp, and probably above in most respects. And that's just the kicker—let's talk about the main component, the daze effect.
The daze effect. It amazes me that people defend this point. Daze Monster, a Core spell, only affects up to 6 HD and it does the exact same thing. Sure, it has a range advantage, which might be able to pretend to make up the difference if it weren't a second-level spell.
Ear-Piercing Scream, a first-level ranged dazing spell with a save-for-half sonic damage kicker, is better at dazing enemies than a second-level spell designed for that sole purpose.
Major oversight, this one. I'd recommend house ruling it.
I should note that raise dead is not at all over- or underpowered and should not be impugned.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It is only OP if you have creatures with bad fort saves and/or weakness to sonic. As chaoseffect said, 5d6 at 10th level isn't all that good. Think of it like this
Wizard:I do 5d6 points of damage, make a fort save
GM:I roll a 1
Wizard:He is Dazed for 1 round
GM:Fighter, your turn
Fighter:38, do I hit?
Gm:Yes
Fighter:I do 6d6+x damage with my Impact Greatsword because Vital Strike.
GM: He's badly hurt, but you don't kill him. Hm...The enemy was going to cast Dominate Person on you this turn, but they can't move, so I guess that brings us to the master summoner's turn.
Master Summoner: *Gets out huge crate of minis*Everyone: *Groan*
Daze is a lot more powerful than damage in many situations. Probably the majority. Action economy is the blood pumping through the character's veins—when it stops pumping, you start dying. I should probably note that no rules prevent you from spamming Ear-Piercing Scream, either.
| 10 people marked this as a favorite. |
All that screaming woke me up.
|
I'm with kobold. Having run my share of high level spellcasters in combat, they need every single turn they can get. That conjurer NEEDS to get off his black tentacles 1st round and his stinking cloud second round before people get out of the tentacles or he's SOL. Heck, just making the wizard stand still for one round can be a death sentence on its own. Ear-piercing scream even targets what is typically one of their weakest saves (reflex is actually often the worst one). Heck, at high levels you can even spam EPS all day, or cast one then another one if the first doesnt stick, or heighten it to get the DC up, or make it persistent, or any combination.
I have a level 11 evocation-focused sorc, and I cant praise EPS enough. It's made the difference so many times.
Wow, thread necro...
The major discrepancy I can see is really the HD limit,
with Daze Cantrip having 4HD limit and Daze Monster having 6HD limit, EPS having no limit.
EPS targets Fort instead of Will, and is sonic instead of compulsion|mind-affecting, which is better IMHO.
So at most EPS should have 5HD limit, if not 4HD like Cantrip Daze (even with same HD limit, it would be better from sonic dmg, removing humanoid limitation, +1 DC)
It is nice option to Quicken at high level vs. Low Fort Opponents, especially when you don't have enough offensive spells left (that are quickenable) after your main spell didn't work and you want something to take them out of action. A HD limit certainly would limit that functionality, but it would still work fine for speed bump opponents, and of course creatures vulnerable to Sonic.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
EPS is not all that great. It is a first level spell that requires a save on a single target. It is not like it is an AoE effect.
Charm Person is better, and not considered to be OP. It not only takes your actions away for one round. It can make you sit out an entire fight. It can make enemies give you a map of their HQ. You can use it to avoid a lot of fights if you can get the right person to escort you into an area.
A caster having a poor fort save is a player problem. Casters(arcane) don't have to have poor fort saves, just like fighters(similar types) don't have to have poor will saves.
If you are willing to invest a lot of metamagic feats it might be really good, but if you invest a lot in something it should be good.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The spell is overall meh. Far from "too good". Not even really good.
It targets the best save of most monsters.
While the damage-type is good, the amount is low, and can be even halfed further by the save.
The Daze-Effect is what this is good for. But it only CCs for 1 round.
Even at the level there are much better CC options.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The spell is overall meh. Far from "too good". Not even really good.
It targets the best save of most monsters.
While the damage-type is good, the amount is low, and can be even halfed further by the save.
The Daze-Effect is what this is good for. But it only CCs for 1 round.Even at the level there are much better CC options.
Exactly, Color Spray and Sleep have ended more encounters at first level than this spell ever will. At higher levels the crowd control or even single creature control options are also much better.
There are quite a few spells which are basically "too good" and most of them come from Ultimate Magic, like Ear-Piercing Scream.
But it's not the d6 which makes Ear-Piercing Scream so good but the secondary effect of dazing your target.
Most of those "too good" spells from UM either have a really good secondary effect or still screw over the target if it makes it save, like Terrible Remorse, Icy Prison or Prediction of Failure.
Snowball ignores SR, scales damage faster, and the damage is not reduced by a failed save. Magic Missile is an auto-hit with force damage but has no kicker. All-in-all, I think these three are all roughly balanced.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Perhaps the issue between Ear Piercing Scream and Daze Monster is the latter instead of the former? There are other second level spells that severely hamper an opponent at level 2 that last for more than one round and don't have a level cap.
Yeah, Daze Monster is an absolutely terrible spell. I do like EPS as a fortitude-targeting 1st level spell for my save-or-suck sorceress. That's kind of neat. I might pick that one up next level.
Daze Monster does seem to be underpowered...
I do think that EPS should probably have a HD limit though, all things considered.
I would put it around 5HD, i.e. 1 higher than Cantrip Daze. Maybe equal to it, at 4HD.
*If* Daze Monster needs a HD cap it should probably be more like 9 or 10HD, if not unlimited.
Re: Saves, the fact that Daze/EPS/DazeMonster between them let one cherry-pick Saves to target does increase ALL their power, since you can choose which one to use depending on enemy type. I understand why EPS went with Fort since that usually correlates to Sonic damage, but since it is otherwise so similar to Daze/DazeMonster (in fact strictly better SOLELY in the Daze department, ignoring Sonic damage), there really is a strong argument for using Will. And like I said, the no HD limit to EPS is probably Errata.
|
|
It's a pretty nice spell, but burning a standard action to (potentially) deny your opponent one round is not a very powerful trade. You're more or less just trading your turn for theirs.
Better when you can quicken it, but then we're talking about a fifth level spell slot and an easy save.
The nicest thing about it is that both sonic damage and the daze condition are rarely resisted so it's usable against a lot of enemies, but it's still a low damage single target short duration control effect.
The value of one PC's action =/= the value of one enemy's action. Because action economy almost always favors the PCs, NPCs have to use theirs much more effectively. There's also usually one "main" enemy that provides most of the CR budget, often a spellcaster, and taking away even one of his turns give you the advantage.
I wouldnt say EPS is OP at all; I think it's power is right on-target. But I certainly dont think it's as terrible as some people here are claiming. I've gotten great mileage out of it.
If I understand right. It never even does 2d6 damage till level four. It is not an extra d6 every additional two levels. It is per 2 levels.No, by level 3. You get access to the spell at level 1, then another 2 caster levels puts you at level 3, and it increases to 2d6.
Increases again at levels 5,7 and 9. This is the same as magic missile. Compare it to fireball, which increases every level.
Magic Missile doesn't have a saving throw for half damage.
If I understand right. It never even does 2d6 damage till level four. It is not an extra d6 every additional two levels. It is per 2 levels.No, by level 3. You get access to the spell at level 1, then another 2 caster levels puts you at level 3, and it increases to 2d6.
Increases again at levels 5,7 and 9. This is the same as magic missile. Compare it to fireball, which increases every level.
Not the same as magic missile.
Magic Missile specifically says 1d4+1 and an additional missile for every two caster levels beyond 1.
EPS does not have a baseline damage. It's simply 1d6 per two caster levels, not two additional caster levels. Which means you need CL4 for 2d6.
I don't really understand how EPS could be perceived as op. Even at higher levels, color spray is better in many situations - 15ft cone for 1 round of stun. The damage is so low it doesn't give much advantage, only the range really makes EPS comparable at all. When compared to higher-level spells, there are plenty of good examples that are much better, for example blindness/deafness as a level 2 spell totally cripples an opponent that fails a save, potentially permanently, has longer range and isn't even mind-affecting.
If you're a dedicated save-or-suck caster then you want spells that target each of the different saves. Color spray is great against opponents with crappy will saves but if they have a good will save but a crappy fortitude save then it's pretty useless.
I don't really understand how EPS could be perceived as op. Even at higher levels, color spray is better in many situations - 15ft cone for 1 round of stun. The damage is so low it doesn't give much advantage, only the range really makes EPS comparable at all. When compared to higher-level spells, there are plenty of good examples that are much better, for example blindness/deafness as a level 2 spell totally cripples an opponent that fails a save, potentially permanently, has longer range and isn't even mind-affecting.
The obvious niche for EPS is that since it does sonic damage the daze effect also hits constructs and undead (it's now a fort save that objects aren't immune to). It's very good on a Psychic, for example, who has very few options against constructs and has to burn lots of phrenic pool to hinder undead with his main tricks.
If we want to get cheesy, it's a great spell to make into a cheap wand and hand off to a familiar or hireling or ten. Being dazed really sucks.
Thanks to lacking a hit die limit, this spell stays useful long after sleep and color spray have been forgotten.
Honestly, it's not even that bad, but there are a few minor fixes that need to be made that would pretty much entirely reverse the problem.
If we want to get cheesy, it's a great spell to make into a cheap wand and hand off to a familiar or hireling or ten. Being dazed really sucks.
Thanks to lacking a hit die limit, this spell stays useful long after sleep and color spray have been forgotten.
Honestly, it's not even that bad, but there are a few minor fixes that need to be made that would pretty much entirely reverse the problem.
In a world with CRB madness it seems like shuffling deck chairs on the titanic to worry about EPS to me.
If we want to get cheesy, it's a great spell to make into a cheap wand and hand off to a familiar or hireling or ten. Being dazed really sucks.
Thanks to lacking a hit die limit, this spell stays useful long after sleep and color spray have been forgotten.
Honestly, it's not even that bad, but there are a few minor fixes that need to be made that would pretty much entirely reverse the problem.
The DC 11 save is going to dramatically limit its use.
As a wand, yes, that tactic is only really good if you get really cheesy (ten hirelings with wands costs about 7.5k and gives roughly a 50/50 chance of negating an enemy's turn even if they have a +9 or higher Will save—cheaper than a wand of bestow curse). But as a spell, the DC should keep going up, and it remains an excellent fall-back when you're conserving spells. Assuming you have a 30 in the mental ability, creatures with less than a +19 Will will fail at least 10% of the time, and everything else still has a 5% chance of totally losing its turn. And you still deal a halved 5d6 sonic.
A wonderful candidate for Quicken Spell, too. 5+% chance of totally cancelling out the boss monster's next round of attacks as a swift action? Sure, I'd take those odds.
If we want to get cheesy, it's a great spell to make into a cheap wand and hand off to a familiar or hireling or ten. Being dazed really sucks.
Thanks to lacking a hit die limit, this spell stays useful long after sleep and color spray have been forgotten.
Honestly, it's not even that bad, but there are a few minor fixes that need to be made that would pretty much entirely reverse the problem.
Color Spray is pretty competitive/complementary with EPS on high HD creatures. Will (mind affecting) vs. Fort (dazes anything), 15' cone vs. single target (but longer range), stun vs. daze.
Will is a better save (except when it's not), 15' cone is better than a single target (unless they aren't super close or you only need to effect one), and stun is always a better condition than daze (unless they're immune). I can see using both/either situationally at higher levels if you really need to use 1st level spell slots.
It isn't quite as good as magic missile. But magic missile is so pervasive, I actually dislike taking it. So yes, I do very often take ear piercing scream.
Plus, as you said, very few opponents are resistant to sonic damage. 5d6 ain't great, but it is better than many of the other damaging spells if the creature happens to be resistant, has evasion, etc...
Useful, but not really overpowered.
