paizo.com Recent Posts in Adventure Paths and high level playpaizo.com Recent Posts in Adventure Paths and high level play2013-08-18T21:22:28Z2013-08-18T21:22:28ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Adventure Paths and high level playmagnusknhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q2gn&page=4?Adventure-Paths-and-high-level-play#1852013-10-11T07:09:10Z2013-10-11T07:09:10Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">James Jacobs wrote:</div><blockquote><p> One thing that I proposed for the game early on that never even made it into the alpha as far as I know (which is too bad, cause I think it would have sovled a lot of the problem) is "enhancement slots."</p>
<p>Basically, a PC has a limited number of slots for magical enhancement effects from spells. This number should be relatively small. Say, 1 + 1 per 5 character levels, to a maximum of 5 slots at 20th level.</p>
<p>Every helpful "buff spell" takes up a slot, and if your slots are filled and a new buff spell comes in to affect you, you get to decide which slot the new effect fills and replaces or if you want to ignore the slot.</p>
<p>This way, a 12th level PC has 3 buff slots. He might start the fight with a bull's strength, a heroes' feast, and a death ward. Once the combat starts, the bard begins a bardic performance. The character must decide if he wants this boost, and if he does, gets to pick if he wants to replace bull's strength or heroes' feast or death ward.</p>
<p>Enhancements from worn magic items don't fill enhancement slots, since they're already filling "slots" on the body.</p>
<p>Try it out! Tinker as you will! In theory, this not only prevents the PCs from becoming too overwhelmingly powerful by powering up with prep spells, but also makes it easier to track those prep spells since there's a limit, and also works to prevent the "nova" effect of a caster spending all their buff slots in one encounter, forcing them to be more tactical in their adventuring and spreading out these effects during a day.</p>
<p>I do recommend NOT using this for NPCs; let them have as many buff spells as you want, since NPCs don't fill the same role that PCs do. Of course, you can certainly go ahead and use the system for NPCs too if you want... that'll mean more adjustment to stats for published adventures is all... </blockquote><p>A little update on that: Now that we've started Wrath of the Righteous, we implemented as a houserule that, while casters can buff themselves with as many buffs as they like (and that bardic music would count as a class feature instead of a magical buff), the party as a whole gets three buff slots, so if a Cleric casts Blessing of Fervor and Prayer, the Wizard casts Haste and the Bard casts Good Hope, everybody has to choose which three of those four buffs are going to affect them. I hope that takes a bit out of the buff synergy advantage a large group gets while not screwing over completely the buff-heavy classes like a melee Cleric.
<p>I also went back to standard magic item crafting, but this time with the WBL limitations proposed in Ultimate Campaign. With the explanation that a caster can only handle so much "permanent magical weight", which with increasing power level gets higher.</p>
<p>I am not sure if Wrath of the Righteous was the right AP to start with this experiment, though, since much of the overpowering aspect of gameplay will be made worse with mythic rules. We'll see what comes of it.</p>
<p>As for people interested how Jade Regents final encounter went:</p>
<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>James Jacobs wrote:One thing that I proposed for the game early on that never even made it into the alpha as far as I know (which is too bad, cause I think it would have sovled a lot of the problem) is "enhancement slots."
Basically, a PC has a limited number of slots for magical enhancement effects from spells. This number should be relatively small. Say, 1 + 1 per 5 character levels, to a maximum of 5 slots at 20th level.
Every helpful "buff spell" takes up a slot, and if your slots are...magnuskn2013-10-11T07:09:10ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Adventure Paths and high level playmagnusknhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q2gn&page=4?Adventure-Paths-and-high-level-play#1842013-09-10T23:33:12Z2013-09-10T23:30:00Z<p>Little update on the Jade Regent campaign, for interested parties.</p>
<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>Little update on the Jade Regent campaign, for interested parties.
[Spoiler omitted]magnuskn2013-09-10T23:30:00ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Adventure Paths and high level playTangent101https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q2gn&page=4?Adventure-Paths-and-high-level-play#1832013-09-08T15:00:26Z2013-09-08T15:00:26Z<p>Technically the arguments on Sleep and Compulsions suggest it isn't affected by those immunities. Specifically the discussion of the compulsions that Protection From (insert alignment here) spells protect from - they protect from Charms and Compulsions but don't protect against Sleep.</p>Technically the arguments on Sleep and Compulsions suggest it isn't affected by those immunities. Specifically the discussion of the compulsions that Protection From (insert alignment here) spells protect from - they protect from Charms and Compulsions but don't protect against Sleep.Tangent1012013-09-08T15:00:26ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Adventure Paths and high level playCoridanhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q2gn&page=4?Adventure-Paths-and-high-level-play#1822013-09-08T10:32:09Z2013-09-08T10:32:09Z<p>Or put him one on one with Adimarchus.</p>Or put him one on one with Adimarchus.Coridan2013-09-08T10:32:09ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Adventure Paths and high level playSebastian Hirschhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q2gn&page=4?Adventure-Paths-and-high-level-play#1812013-09-07T03:15:06Z2013-09-07T03:15:06Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Lord Snow wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Sebastian Hirsch wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">magnuskn wrote:</div><blockquote> With Luz and me discussing about how to improve my Jade Regent campaigns last weeks, the thread kind is off-kilter, anyway. But alignment discussions are of course still a bit of another thing than high-level play discussions. ;) </blockquote><p>The AP has a CR 26 enemy in the bestiary part, and frankly I am not that impressed (oh and btw this demon lord doesn't seem to be immune to sleep effects, so unless he is on his home plane... mythic hex: sleep drops him for at least one round ...).
</p>
</blockquote><p>Ha? the demons lord from the WotR #1 bestiary is a •beast•. At least, it seems that way to me. Admittedly I have 0 experience with pathfinder over level 11, so I guess I don't really have the right to speak here, but:
<p>1) SR 38... Even 20th level character cant really get pass that consistently, right? gonna be tough to hit him with any spell, let alone sleep... which, by the way, your PCs will never even try because it's kinda silly to assume it works. </p>
<p>2) Blasphemy at will, with the DC being 26 (meaning PCs not prepared with the right strong save can easily just not make their save)... and their HD easily 10 less than that of the demon lord... meaning every single melee character in the party could just be dead, easy as that. Besides, some archers/caster could easily find themselves with range, especially when you consider that casting time is a standard action, and the the demon lord is size huge and has 80 ft movement to re-position himself for the spell...</p>
<p>3) Somewhere between timestop, quickend flesh to stone, imprisonment, the special roar ability, greater dispel magic and earth quake, this guy can cause a TON of disruption. And that's not even half the stuff he can do... and it helps that many of the saves will be virtually impossible for many of the PCs (DC 40 saves or take 30d10 damage and be stunned for 1d6 rounds? really?)</p>
<p>4) it helps that once a single PC, or hack, an NPC helping the PCs... or hack, a mook he keeps around for exactly that reason... </blockquote><p>Lord Snow (note to self don't say "you know nothing Lord Snow.... :P ) I actually agree that the creature has some pretty nice and quite powerful abilities, but I have a lot of experience with powerful players, and I could see this one dying to 1-2 archers in a round. And that isn't so much fun for me the GM.Lord Snow wrote:Sebastian Hirsch wrote: magnuskn wrote: With Luz and me discussing about how to improve my Jade Regent campaigns last weeks, the thread kind is off-kilter, anyway. But alignment discussions are of course still a bit of another thing than high-level play discussions. ;)
The AP has a CR 26 enemy in the bestiary part, and frankly I am not that impressed (oh and btw this demon lord doesn't seem to be immune to sleep effects, so unless he is on his home plane... mythic hex: sleep...Sebastian Hirsch2013-09-07T03:15:06ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Adventure Paths and high level playSebastian Hirschhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q2gn&page=4?Adventure-Paths-and-high-level-play#1802013-09-07T03:10:29Z2013-09-07T03:10:29Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sc8rpi8n_mjd wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Sebastian Hirsch wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
But I am curious, IIRC you have MA and Wraith of the Righteous part 1, what do you think about the AP. After all the PCs will hit the high levels (and high tiers) sooner and reach higher levels in this one.
<br />
What do you think, will the PCs steamroll this one too ? </p>
<p>The AP has a CR 26 enemy in the bestiary part, and frankly I am not that impressed (oh and btw this demon lord doesn't seem to be immune to sleep effects, so unless he is on his home plane... mythic hex: sleep drops him for at least one round ...).
<br />
</blockquote><p>Well after reading the first adventure, and asking James Jacobs about the number of mythic demons in the AP, I'm worried. He basically said that the vast majority of the encounters in the AP are going to be against standard demons. As magnuskn, I'm skeptical. I'll probably have to re-stat all the important encounters to provide a decent challenge.
<p>•• spoiler omitted ••</p>
<p>As for Xoveron, all demon lords are immune to compulsion effects. Sleep hex references the sleep spell, wich has the compulsion descriptor, so I think he is immune. </blockquote><p>Thank you I completely missed that descriptor, I was only searching for immunity to sleep effects.Sc8rpi8n_mjd wrote:Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
But I am curious, IIRC you have MA and Wraith of the Righteous part 1, what do you think about the AP. After all the PCs will hit the high levels (and high tiers) sooner and reach higher levels in this one.
What do you think, will the PCs steamroll this one too ? The AP has a CR 26 enemy in the bestiary part, and frankly I am not that impressed (oh and btw this demon lord doesn't seem to be immune to sleep effects, so unless he is on his home...Sebastian Hirsch2013-09-07T03:10:29ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Adventure Paths and high level playLord Snowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q2gn&page=4?Adventure-Paths-and-high-level-play#1792013-09-06T14:39:31Z2013-09-06T14:39:31Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Tangent101 wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
Saying "it's impossible" ignores the fact many players are the most cunning and sneaky type of person out there. That's why we are friends with them. ;) </blockquote><p>Keep your friends close... and your players closer.
<p>Well, I see your point. I will refrein from voicing my unfounded opinions from now on, since I really just have no experience with the subject matter. I guess it's quite impossible to guess what kind of magic items PCs of 20th level are going to posses... but seriously, the demon lord attacks from so many angles, requiring the PCs to have such incredible resources on all fronts, that he still seems incredibly powerful to me. </p>
<p>I'm starting to have a delightful idea in my head to test the power of the demon lord - to take the BBEGs of five or six different APs and use them as a group of PCs, and try to take down the demon lord. Think about it: Karzoug, Nyrissa, the high priest of Ydesrius + the avatar of Ydesrius, the Xin reliquary, queen elvana... etc. </p>
<p>Actually, do you guys feel like doing this? open a separate thread in the PBP subforum and run the gauntlet?</p>Tangent101 wrote:Saying "it's impossible" ignores the fact many players are the most cunning and sneaky type of person out there. That's why we are friends with them. ;)
Keep your friends close... and your players closer. Well, I see your point. I will refrein from voicing my unfounded opinions from now on, since I really just have no experience with the subject matter. I guess it's quite impossible to guess what kind of magic items PCs of 20th level are going to posses... but seriously, the...Lord Snow2013-09-06T14:39:31ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Adventure Paths and high level playTangent101https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q2gn&page=4?Adventure-Paths-and-high-level-play#1782013-09-06T14:22:23Z2013-09-06T14:22:23Z<p>I was actually referring to Wrath of the Righteous itself (as in a part of six characters with 25-point builds or better).</p>
<p>And let's face it. A level 20 party that's optimized would very likely have magic items to cope with weaknesses, may have used Wish spells to increase stats, and if they were intelligent would have researched their foes. </p>
<p>Let's take a party that finished off Karzoug and looted him and Xin-Shalast. They'd have several minor artifacts and may very well have a couple weapons Empowered in the Runeforge - they may even have something that negates Blasphemy.</p>
<p>Saying "it's impossible" ignores the fact many players are the most cunning and sneaky type of person out there. That's why we are friends with them. ;)</p>I was actually referring to Wrath of the Righteous itself (as in a part of six characters with 25-point builds or better).
And let's face it. A level 20 party that's optimized would very likely have magic items to cope with weaknesses, may have used Wish spells to increase stats, and if they were intelligent would have researched their foes.
Let's take a party that finished off Karzoug and looted him and Xin-Shalast. They'd have several minor artifacts and may very well have a couple...Tangent1012013-09-06T14:22:23ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Adventure Paths and high level playLord Snowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q2gn&page=4?Adventure-Paths-and-high-level-play#1772013-09-06T14:00:02Z2013-09-06T14:00:02Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Tangent101 wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
<p>In fact, that might be interesting to do; a larger party that isn't Mythic. See how they'd cope. </blockquote><p>all die together to the first well positioned blasphemy that the demon lord casts? Remember, up until now there were not many enemies capable of outright killing PCs of 20th level because of the gap in HD that it requires, but this demon lord has 33 HD, and a seriously high save DC of 26. I'd say any PC with a weak will save is just about doomed, as they'll have like what? a + 10, maybe even +14 on their save? not bad, you need to roll 12 plus. Oh, you got lucky and won the die roll? nice, you are all still paralyzed for a turn. Speaking of being paralized, the demon lord used a swift action to summon a balor... and it's either casting fire storm to target all those poor, paralyzed people who can't make their save at all, or is maybe using power word stun to take out someone left outside the range of the spell.
<p>Now, I know that you want to go around saying that all the PCs are likely to go first in combat, and that gives that an entire round to try and bring the bad guy down before he gets a chance to kill them.</p>
<p>The bad news are a SR of 38, a frightful presence of impossibly large DC, and a regeneration they can never beat. And plenty of more specific Immunities. Plus an AC of 45 is no joke even to a buffed 20th level martial who has his strength reduced (via unholy aura) every times he scores a hit... I guess the first attack each round is still likely to hit but the iterative attacks could easily miss. Plus, after the blasphemy, the strength is reduced even further.</p>
<p>Seriously, this demon lord is a •beast•. It really is the strongest monster Iv'e ever seen in PF rules.</p>Tangent101 wrote:In fact, that might be interesting to do; a larger party that isn't Mythic. See how they'd cope.
all die together to the first well positioned blasphemy that the demon lord casts? Remember, up until now there were not many enemies capable of outright killing PCs of 20th level because of the gap in HD that it requires, but this demon lord has 33 HD, and a seriously high save DC of 26. I'd say any PC with a weak will save is just about doomed, as they'll have like what? a +...Lord Snow2013-09-06T14:00:02ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Adventure Paths and high level playTangent101https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q2gn&page=4?Adventure-Paths-and-high-level-play#1762013-09-06T13:51:44Z2013-09-06T13:51:44Z<p>Well yeah, a Mythic 10 character is quite powerful. You're talking the equivalent to a level 25 character. Though in my opinion Mythic is a little MORE than .5 levels per tier - I'd say closer to .75.</p>
<p>The question is, would a level 20 non Mythic group have a chance. The answer is: it depends. It depends on their magic items, their builds, and how many characters there are. A party of six level 20 characters is decidedly more powerful than a party of four. Add in level 18 or 17 Cohorts for even half of them... and suddenly you're talking a sizable group of high level characters that could do a number on it.</p>
<p>In fact, that might be interesting to do; a larger party that isn't Mythic. See how they'd cope.</p>Well yeah, a Mythic 10 character is quite powerful. You're talking the equivalent to a level 25 character. Though in my opinion Mythic is a little MORE than .5 levels per tier - I'd say closer to .75.
The question is, would a level 20 non Mythic group have a chance. The answer is: it depends. It depends on their magic items, their builds, and how many characters there are. A party of six level 20 characters is decidedly more powerful than a party of four. Add in level 18 or 17 Cohorts for...Tangent1012013-09-06T13:51:44ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Adventure Paths and high level playLord Snowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q2gn&page=4?Adventure-Paths-and-high-level-play#1752013-09-06T13:49:49Z2013-09-06T13:49:49Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">magnuskn wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Oh, well, just lost a large post due to message board problems. :-/ Anyway, I calculated that the DC can easily reach 37 at lvl 20/mythic 10 and probably would be higher if an optimizer were to touch that up. </p>
<p>And as for never using that ability... there are ways to negate immunities in Mythic Adventures. </blockquote><p>Yeah, I'm really feeling the lack of this book during the discussion, as I obviously have a serious lack of information here. About the DC though, I can easily say that I don't worry about that too much... if an optimizer put that much into making the save hard, he/she deserves to force a demon lord to roll a 6 instead of a 4 to make that save :P
<p>By the way, part of the demon lord's CR comes from the super power it gets by being in it's realm, which turns all the spells into mythic spells and gives access to mythic power. I'm not entirely sure how Surge works, but IIRC the demon lord could use it to improve a saving throw, right? Even a party of level 20/mythic tier 10 PCs that faces the demon lord in it's layer (where he'll most likely be) will have •serious• trouble with this one. I mean, come on, you described what your PCs are capable of at length in this thread, and most of it sounds much more terrifying than a DC 6 save or suck effect... right? For someone who scrambles to find a way to challenge high level PCs, this here demon lords looks like quite the blessing...</p>
<p>Plus, the demon lord •does• get to summon a balor each turn as a swift action, and those can use power word stun in a rather effective way (CL 20, no save) to neutralize some of the arcane casters in the party.</p>magnuskn wrote:Oh, well, just lost a large post due to message board problems. :-/ Anyway, I calculated that the DC can easily reach 37 at lvl 20/mythic 10 and probably would be higher if an optimizer were to touch that up.
And as for never using that ability... there are ways to negate immunities in Mythic Adventures.
Yeah, I'm really feeling the lack of this book during the discussion, as I obviously have a serious lack of information here. About the DC though, I can easily say that I...Lord Snow2013-09-06T13:49:49ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Adventure Paths and high level playmagnusknhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q2gn&page=4?Adventure-Paths-and-high-level-play#1742013-09-06T13:10:55Z2013-09-06T13:10:55Z<p>Oh, well, just lost a large post due to message board problems. :-/ Anyway, I calculated that the DC can easily reach 37 at lvl 20/mythic 10 and probably would be higher if an optimizer were to touch that up. </p>
<p>And as for never using that ability... there are ways to negate immunities in Mythic Adventures.</p>Oh, well, just lost a large post due to message board problems. :-/ Anyway, I calculated that the DC can easily reach 37 at lvl 20/mythic 10 and probably would be higher if an optimizer were to touch that up.
And as for never using that ability... there are ways to negate immunities in Mythic Adventures.magnuskn2013-09-06T13:10:55ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Adventure Paths and high level playLord Snowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q2gn&page=4?Adventure-Paths-and-high-level-play#1732013-09-06T13:02:01Z2013-09-06T13:02:01Z<p>And what I meant about the slumber hex is that even though the creature is not ACTUALLY immune, as a player I would assume it is, and will never try a slumber hex on it out of feat of just burning a valuable turn on doing nothing.</p>And what I meant about the slumber hex is that even though the creature is not ACTUALLY immune, as a player I would assume it is, and will never try a slumber hex on it out of feat of just burning a valuable turn on doing nothing.Lord Snow2013-09-06T13:02:01ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Adventure Paths and high level playLord Snowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q2gn&page=4?Adventure-Paths-and-high-level-play#1722013-09-06T12:57:27Z2013-09-06T12:57:27Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">magnuskn wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Lord Snow wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
1) SR 38... Even 20th level character cant really get pass that consistently, right? gonna be tough to hit him with any spell, let alone sleep... which, by the way, your PCs will never even try because it's kinda silly to assume it works. </blockquote><p>Look up the Slumber hex from the Witch class, then what the mythic hex ability does. Yes, it can work and if you take the Archmage path, you get abilities which help you bypass SR.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Lord Snow wrote:</div><blockquote>So, how is this thing NOT impressive?</blockquote>It certainly is, but at the level where you actually get to fight those kind of enemies, the game is so skewed towards rocket tag that it only matters who goes first in initiative. HP pools are too small on both sides to effectively deal with the damage output the game allows, and it certainly appears so far that they are even less adequate for mythic games. We'll see how it goes when the actual high level modules for Wrath roll in. </blockquote><p>Well, I'll take the words of the expert on it (IIRC you did like 17 adventure paths, so experience is on your side here :P). Even more than that you have access to the mythic handbook and I don't, so It's hard for me to evaluate just how potent are the bonuses you speak of...
<p>but just looking at the slumber hex, the demon lord has a +33 fort save, and I just can't see that it's likely it will fail that save...the base difficulty would be around DC 26, and even if all sorts of extra stuff helps make it harder I can't imagine the demon lord will need more than a 4 or something to make the save... and there's still always a viable chance of just failing to bypass SR... even with like a +10 to bypass SR a 20th level witch has like a 40% chance to miss...</p>
<p>I'm just saying that the numbers on this beast actually look big enough to withstand the maddness that high level PCs are reported to be.
<br />
He will lose initiative, though...</p>magnuskn wrote:Lord Snow wrote:
1) SR 38... Even 20th level character cant really get pass that consistently, right? gonna be tough to hit him with any spell, let alone sleep... which, by the way, your PCs will never even try because it's kinda silly to assume it works.
Look up the Slumber hex from the Witch class, then what the mythic hex ability does. Yes, it can work and if you take the Archmage path, you get abilities which help you bypass SR. Lord Snow wrote:So, how is this thing NOT...Lord Snow2013-09-06T12:57:27ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Adventure Paths and high level playmagnusknhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q2gn&page=4?Adventure-Paths-and-high-level-play#1712013-09-06T12:25:31Z2013-09-06T12:25:31Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Lord Snow wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
1) SR 38... Even 20th level character cant really get pass that consistently, right? gonna be tough to hit him with any spell, let alone sleep... which, by the way, your PCs will never even try because it's kinda silly to assume it works. </blockquote><p>Look up the Slumber hex from the Witch class, then what the mythic hex ability does. Yes, it can work and if you take the Archmage path, you get abilities which help you bypass SR.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Lord Snow wrote:</div><blockquote>So, how is this thing NOT impressive?</blockquote><p>It certainly is, but at the level where you actually get to fight those kind of enemies, the game is so skewed towards rocket tag that it only matters who goes first in initiative. HP pools are too small on both sides to effectively deal with the damage output the game allows, and it certainly appears so far that they are even less adequate for mythic games. We'll see how it goes when the actual high level modules for Wrath roll in.Lord Snow wrote:1) SR 38... Even 20th level character cant really get pass that consistently, right? gonna be tough to hit him with any spell, let alone sleep... which, by the way, your PCs will never even try because it's kinda silly to assume it works.
Look up the Slumber hex from the Witch class, then what the mythic hex ability does. Yes, it can work and if you take the Archmage path, you get abilities which help you bypass SR. Lord Snow wrote:So, how is this thing NOT impressive?
It...magnuskn2013-09-06T12:25:31ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Adventure Paths and high level playLord Snowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q2gn&page=4?Adventure-Paths-and-high-level-play#1702013-09-06T12:21:51Z2013-09-06T12:21:51Z<p>Oh, and I also completely overlooked that he has unholy aura...am I just a noob for not understanding what high level PCs are capable of? this guy just seems so invincible, but maybe I just don't have a clue...</p>Oh, and I also completely overlooked that he has unholy aura...am I just a noob for not understanding what high level PCs are capable of? this guy just seems so invincible, but maybe I just don't have a clue...Lord Snow2013-09-06T12:21:51ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Adventure Paths and high level playmagnusknhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q2gn&page=4?Adventure-Paths-and-high-level-play#1692013-09-06T12:19:04Z2013-09-06T12:19:04Z<p>Well, maxing hitpoints normally only adds one, maybe two rounds to the combat duration at the high levels, so it appears to be a good idea to do that and apply the advanced template. And adding additional opponents, if they can do something worthwhile to the party.</p>
<p>Some more Jade Regent specific stuff for Luz:</p>
<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>Well, maxing hitpoints normally only adds one, maybe two rounds to the combat duration at the high levels, so it appears to be a good idea to do that and apply the advanced template. And adding additional opponents, if they can do something worthwhile to the party.
Some more Jade Regent specific stuff for Luz:
[Spoiler omitted]magnuskn2013-09-06T12:19:04ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Adventure Paths and high level playLord Snowhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q2gn&page=4?Adventure-Paths-and-high-level-play#1682013-09-06T12:16:08Z2013-09-06T12:16:08Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sebastian Hirsch wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">magnuskn wrote:</div><blockquote> With Luz and me discussing about how to improve my Jade Regent campaigns last weeks, the thread kind is off-kilter, anyway. But alignment discussions are of course still a bit of another thing than high-level play discussions. ;) </blockquote><p>The AP has a CR 26 enemy in the bestiary part, and frankly I am not that impressed (oh and btw this demon lord doesn't seem to be immune to sleep effects, so unless he is on his home plane... mythic hex: sleep drops him for at least one round ...).
</p>
</blockquote><p>Ha? the demons lord from the WotR #1 bestiary is a •beast•. At least, it seems that way to me. Admittedly I have 0 experience with pathfinder over level 11, so I guess I don't really have the right to speak here, but:
<p>1) SR 38... Even 20th level character cant really get pass that consistently, right? gonna be tough to hit him with any spell, let alone sleep... which, by the way, your PCs will never even try because it's kinda silly to assume it works. </p>
<p>2) Blasphemy at will, with the DC being 26 (meaning PCs not prepared with the right strong save can easily just not make their save)... and their HD easily 10 less than that of the demon lord... meaning every single melee character in the party could just be dead, easy as that. Besides, some archers/caster could easily find themselves with range, especially when you consider that casting time is a standard action, and the the demon lord is size huge and has 80 ft movement to re-position himself for the spell...</p>
<p>3) Somewhere between timestop, quickend flesh to stone, imprisonment, the special roar ability, greater dispel magic and earth quake, this guy can cause a TON of disruption. And that's not even half the stuff he can do... and it helps that many of the saves will be virtually impossible for many of the PCs (DC 40 saves or take 30d10 damage and be stunned for 1d6 rounds? really?)</p>
<p>4) it helps that once a single PC, or hack, an NPC helping the PCs... or hack, a mook he keeps around for exactly that reason dies, the demon lord gets to consume the body, heal 270 damage and gain the effects of haste...</p>
<p>So, how is this thing NOT impressive?</p>Sebastian Hirsch wrote:magnuskn wrote: With Luz and me discussing about how to improve my Jade Regent campaigns last weeks, the thread kind is off-kilter, anyway. But alignment discussions are of course still a bit of another thing than high-level play discussions. ;)
The AP has a CR 26 enemy in the bestiary part, and frankly I am not that impressed (oh and btw this demon lord doesn't seem to be immune to sleep effects, so unless he is on his home plane... mythic hex: sleep drops him for at...Lord Snow2013-09-06T12:16:08ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Adventure Paths and high level playTangent101https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q2gn&page=4?Adventure-Paths-and-high-level-play#1672013-09-06T04:30:33Z2013-09-06T04:30:33Z<p>Then there's the Advanced build. +2 to hit because of Strength, +2 to damage, +2 to armor class, and more hit points.</p>
<p>For that matter, there's also fudging die rolls to ensure the combat is more viable. I know some GMs are purists about this, but it's idiocy. The game is about being enjoyable. Just mowing down monsters isn't fun. Having a close fight is fun.</p>Then there's the Advanced build. +2 to hit because of Strength, +2 to damage, +2 to armor class, and more hit points.
For that matter, there's also fudging die rolls to ensure the combat is more viable. I know some GMs are purists about this, but it's idiocy. The game is about being enjoyable. Just mowing down monsters isn't fun. Having a close fight is fun.Tangent1012013-09-06T04:30:33ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Adventure Paths and high level playMary Yamatohttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q2gn&page=4?Adventure-Paths-and-high-level-play#1662013-09-06T19:02:07Z2013-09-06T04:15:27Z<p>Doubling the hit points doesn't do much good if the enemies only hit on a 20 and do minimal damage when they do hit, does it? It just makes a pointless fight last slightly longer.</p>
<p>We call this "Blackwall Keep Syndrome" after the third module in Age of Worms, where the author seems convinced that the mass of lizardfolk is a huge threat (in theory it's about CR11) and gives lots of warnings about how the PCs musn't let themselves be engaged—but in fact the PCs can just stand there fighting lizardfolk until they are all dead, because they can't hit, and on the rare 20's they do a d6 or so. No amount of those is actually a CR11—not ten, not fifty, not a hundred. Probably not a thousand. They just don't scale that way.</p>
<p>And then you get the disaster when a GM feels s/he has learned that lesson, and applies it to the wrong creature—something where several of them really is much more dangerous than one. Harpies are a good one. Seugathi are a •great• one (ouch). CR is something of a black art.</p>
<p>Babau demons are more in the first category. If you can handle them, you can handle a lot of them, extra hit points or no. Succubi, in the other hand, are in the second category: unless you are totally immune to their wiles, you don't want to see ten succubi because you •will• miss a save.</p>Doubling the hit points doesn't do much good if the enemies only hit on a 20 and do minimal damage when they do hit, does it? It just makes a pointless fight last slightly longer.
We call this "Blackwall Keep Syndrome" after the third module in Age of Worms, where the author seems convinced that the mass of lizardfolk is a huge threat (in theory it's about CR11) and gives lots of warnings about how the PCs musn't let themselves be engaged--but in fact the PCs can just stand there fighting...Mary Yamato2013-09-06T04:15:27ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Adventure Paths and high level playTangent101https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q2gn&page=4?Adventure-Paths-and-high-level-play#1652013-09-05T23:56:01Z2013-09-05T23:56:01Z<p>Yes, you have four 5th level characters with 1 Mythic Tier against a bunch of normal demons. Which... are very likely CR 6 or higher encounters. And there are two simple solutions to this. Either you can not allow Mythic, which they explain how to do in the module... or you double the hit points of all the monsters.</p>
<p>For that matter, you can also say "no, you can't take that Feat because I feel it would break the game" to your players.</p>Yes, you have four 5th level characters with 1 Mythic Tier against a bunch of normal demons. Which... are very likely CR 6 or higher encounters. And there are two simple solutions to this. Either you can not allow Mythic, which they explain how to do in the module... or you double the hit points of all the monsters.
For that matter, you can also say "no, you can't take that Feat because I feel it would break the game" to your players.Tangent1012013-09-05T23:56:01ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Adventure Paths and high level playSc8rpi8n_mjdhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q2gn&page=4?Adventure-Paths-and-high-level-play#1642013-09-05T23:32:21Z2013-09-05T23:32:21Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sebastian Hirsch wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
But I am curious, IIRC you have MA and Wraith of the Righteous part 1, what do you think about the AP. After all the PCs will hit the high levels (and high tiers) sooner and reach higher levels in this one.
<br />
What do you think, will the PCs steamroll this one too ? </p>
<p>The AP has a CR 26 enemy in the bestiary part, and frankly I am not that impressed (oh and btw this demon lord doesn't seem to be immune to sleep effects, so unless he is on his home plane... mythic hex: sleep drops him for at least one round ...).
<br />
</blockquote><p>Well after reading the first adventure, and asking James Jacobs about the number of mythic demons in the AP, I'm worried. He basically said that the vast majority of the encounters in the AP are going to be against standard demons. As magnuskn, I'm skeptical. I'll probably have to re-stat all the important encounters to provide a decent challenge.
<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p>As for Xoveron, all demon lords are immune to compulsion effects. Sleep hex references the sleep spell, wich has the compulsion descriptor, so I think he is immune.</p>Sebastian Hirsch wrote:But I am curious, IIRC you have MA and Wraith of the Righteous part 1, what do you think about the AP. After all the PCs will hit the high levels (and high tiers) sooner and reach higher levels in this one.
What do you think, will the PCs steamroll this one too ? The AP has a CR 26 enemy in the bestiary part, and frankly I am not that impressed (oh and btw this demon lord doesn't seem to be immune to sleep effects, so unless he is on his home plane... mythic hex: sleep...Sc8rpi8n_mjd2013-09-05T23:32:21ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Adventure Paths and high level playLuz (RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q2gn&page=4?Adventure-Paths-and-high-level-play#1632013-09-05T19:03:24Z2013-09-05T19:03:24Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">magnuskn wrote:</div><blockquote> Luz: Some great suggestions. I'll try to work them in, although I'm not even sure if the players will go to the demon side first. The side of the devils is just as easily reachable. </blockquote><p>Which, IMO, is all the more reason to push the offensive. The occupants of G5 and G6 are aware of the party and that they are somewhat spent on resources, it makes sense for them to be opportunistic at this point. I have no doubt your group will take care of these opponents - probably in short order - but their opponents don't and would probably strike with the upper hand.magnuskn wrote:Luz: Some great suggestions. I'll try to work them in, although I'm not even sure if the players will go to the demon side first. The side of the devils is just as easily reachable.
Which, IMO, is all the more reason to push the offensive. The occupants of G5 and G6 are aware of the party and that they are somewhat spent on resources, it makes sense for them to be opportunistic at this point. I have no doubt your group will take care of these opponents - probably in short...Luz (RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32)2013-09-05T19:03:24ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Adventure Paths and high level playTangent101https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q2gn&page=4?Adventure-Paths-and-high-level-play#1622013-09-05T18:52:49Z2013-09-05T18:52:49Z<p>I'd say the best solution is to give all the encounters Max hit points. You might also add a foe here or there. And I'd suggest a house rule that Rapid Shot and Multishot don't stack (aren't usable at the same time). </p>
<p>And to be honest? I'm not sure high stats are a problem. I am all for higher point builds (but I also always increase monster hit points). I'm just saying this might have been their way of justifying the stat increase.</p>I'd say the best solution is to give all the encounters Max hit points. You might also add a foe here or there. And I'd suggest a house rule that Rapid Shot and Multishot don't stack (aren't usable at the same time).
And to be honest? I'm not sure high stats are a problem. I am all for higher point builds (but I also always increase monster hit points). I'm just saying this might have been their way of justifying the stat increase.Tangent1012013-09-05T18:52:49ZRe: Forums/Pathfinder Adventure Path: General Discussion: Adventure Paths and high level playmagnusknhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q2gn&page=4?Adventure-Paths-and-high-level-play#1612013-09-05T18:05:22Z2013-09-05T18:05:22Z<p>Luz: Some great suggestions. I'll try to work them in, although I'm not even sure if the players will go to the demon side first. The side of the devils is just as easily reachable.</p>
<p>Tangent: I think the difference between a 15 or 20 point buy is completely negligible at the power level of Wrath. The six players is a much bigger issue and I'll have to see how the party composition shakes out in the end. At the moment, we got a caster Cleric, a Barbarian, a Paladin and a archer Ranger, with two more characters coming in, both of which could end up being full arcane casters.</p>Luz: Some great suggestions. I'll try to work them in, although I'm not even sure if the players will go to the demon side first. The side of the devils is just as easily reachable.
Tangent: I think the difference between a 15 or 20 point buy is completely negligible at the power level of Wrath. The six players is a much bigger issue and I'll have to see how the party composition shakes out in the end. At the moment, we got a caster Cleric, a Barbarian, a Paladin and a archer Ranger, with...magnuskn2013-09-05T18:05:22Z