Creative Director
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Wrath of the Righteous is the first adventure path that I really pay attention to.
Does all adventure paths lead characters from level 1 to 20?
With an adventure of this scale, which kind of reminds of the Classic D&D adventure such as Queen of the Spiders and The Bloodstone Pass,I get the feeling that the players should start at a higher level. A reviewer was right about how the beginning, the players fight oddball critters like giant vermins.
Yeah; this is the first one we've done in a while that gets to 20th level.
The majority of the others get PCs to 16th to 18th level, depending on the AP.
James, can you pass on my gratitude to Amber(and everyone who worked on the first book!)? I really am enjoying GMing this path so far!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Quick question for everyone else...
Are you playing up, playing down, or not concerned at all with:
Anevia and her wife's relationship? I love it and I'm trying to make sure I play it right. I'm making Anevia...not uncomfortable...but not forthwith about the fact. I'm kind of hoping for a nice reveal moment for my PC's, one of which is already invited to dinner at Anevia's house after this is all over.
The group gets XP for saving those 3 NPCs. What are some ways to make this a challenge? it seems to easy as monsters would likely go after the threats and not after the crippled until the deadly ones (the PCs) are dead. My group just got out of the caves, so while im focusing on the streets of Krenebres any tip would be helpful.
The challenge is having them stay with you. They snipe at each other, there are chances for diplomacy to fail... so the XP award is for players who actually interact successfully with them. Don't make it too hard on the players. It's not like it's a huge reward.
The challenge is having them stay with you. They snipe at each other, there are chances for diplomacy to fail... so the XP award is for players who actually interact successfully with them. Don't make it too hard on the players. It's not like it's a huge reward.
It seems given how the players have to level up real quick, it appears the quick XP progression table should be used, mythic powers or not.
Nope. It's Medium Advancement, as are any non-3.5 AP. Runelords is the only Pathfinder AP that is Fast XP Progression.
Quick question for everyone else...
Are you playing up, playing down, or not concerned at all with:
** spoiler omitted **
I'm downplaying it and actually changed it so that their love is a secret to the world.
|
Creative Director
|
The challenge is having them stay with you. They snipe at each other, there are chances for diplomacy to fail... so the XP award is for players who actually interact successfully with them. Don't make it too hard on the players. It's not like it's a huge reward.
This is exactly it. It's a diplomatic/roleplaying encounter. Some of the NPCs are easier to get along with than others, but they can drive each other off as well. Getting them to stick together with the PCs is the point of the challenge, since you can assume if one gives up and sets off on his/her own, they get eaten by monsters.
|
Creative Director
|
The challenge is having them stay with you. They snipe at each other, there are chances for diplomacy to fail... so the XP award is for players who actually interact successfully with them. Don't make it too hard on the players. It's not like it's a huge reward.It seems given how the players have to level up real quick, it appears the quick XP progression table should be used, mythic powers or not.
And yeah... the rate at which PCs level up in the first adventure is about on par with the rate levels accumulate in any Adventure Path part one. The increased XP accumulation becomes more and more noticeable as the campaign goes on, and the PCs start facing more and more challenges that are well above their APL.
Damn it! Why can't I find a decent DM to run this for me to play in... looks like I'll have to run it and drool over the PC's mythic-ness - that makes me rather sad!
Damn it! Why can't I find a decent DM to run this for me to play in... looks like I'll have to run it and drool over the PC's mythic-ness - that makes me rather sad!
I'm in the same boat here. I'm the primary GM for my group (mostly by dint of the fact that I'm the only one who buys everything and actually reads it), so I volunteered to run this one when we finish Shattered Star, since there's no way my offsider GM would bother learning a new rule set for it. That said, I have managed to wring a concession out of the group in exchange for this. Someone has to run Iron Gods for me, and they have agreed to run it seriously and with reasonable amounts of prep, rather than the way they've been 'running' Reign of Winter (think literally no prep, non-stop guild wars jokes and talking animals that sound like fratboys... I died a little inside during the first session).
Back on topic. I read through the adventure last night, and holy crap. I wasn't sure about the demonic crusade thing, but I'm sold on it now. I did have on question though.
The way I was thinking of running it is that she spends most of her time rallying defences etc. (when the player can't make it) and occasionally ranges out into the World Wound itself to take the fight to the demons, meeting up with the party in the process (when the player can make it).
Any one have any thoughts, suggestions or potential problems? Obviously it's hard to say without having seen the rest of what's coming up, so I'll be looking at the PDF of Sword of Valor as soon as I get access to it.
We don't know how large a role she plays in the future. She may eventually be sidelined, or she might end up having to be the military governor of a reclaimed region. Also, she's not in the first module until the final quarter, pretty much.
I'd suggest having her roll a character like normal. When she's not here, run the character as a GMPC. When she is, you let her run the character. You could even give her a phonecall during a session (ah, cellphones! What did we do without them? Oh yeah, it was called "having a life...") if there's a decision you don't want to make for her.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
We don't know how large a role she plays in the future. She may eventually be sidelined, or she might end up having to be the military governor of a reclaimed region. Also, she's not in the first module until the final quarter, pretty much.
I'd suggest having her roll a character like normal. When she's not here, run the character as a GMPC. When she is, you let her run the character. You could even give her a phonecall during a session (ah, cellphones! What did we do without them? Oh yeah, it was called "having a life...") if there's a decision you don't want to make for her.
Hmmm. Definitely worth considering. I'd forgotten the potential for her to become a major NPC.
Honestly this may not even end up being a huge problem. This player was meant to do something similar for my Shattered Star game, and we actually wrote in a way for her character to just kind of pop in and out without me having to GMPC her... we only had her in one session of the first book, right at the start. I like to give her a way to be included if she ends up making a session though.
|
Creative Director
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Having a PC run Irabeth actually works pretty well. She's got some minor roles to play in future adventures...
Same goes for pretty much all of the allied NPCs, actually, with the exception of Galfrey and Arueshalae.
Awesome., thanks James! Always nice to get some "word of god" when it comes to situations like this :)
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A reviewer was right about how the beginning, the players fight oddball critters like giant vermins.I disagree because of the pacing.
At the start, they're first level and they aren't fighting them for long. They're mostly the warm-up matches. Also if you keep in mind the situation, even those foes can be a challenge because of the hurt NPCs they are likely escorting. I can say by third level they have fought already...
** spoiler omitted **
You are correct that there are some very interesting fights in the first half of the adventure (underground). However, I disagree that this means pacing requires the dull, pointless, uninteresting vermin fights. They are rather obviously there as speed bumps and XP handouts. They don't contribute to the fun, and if I ever run the adventure I'm planning to get rid of them.
I mean, come on, you were just tossed underground by a mythic balor as your city collapsed around you. You land in a cave with a bunch of strangers, you all are going to learn to work togather to survive, and who knows what horrors you will find along the rode back up! Ah wait, stop the exitement, there are chores to do. Here, do those 3 repetitive fights against extra big bugs.". I think the Hecuva makes a WWAAAYY better first encounter than the vermin.
How is this different than, say, Runelords where you start out fighting vermin - er, I mean goblins - and then skeletons and hey another goblin or two!
Or say Reign of Winter, where you literally have a conga line of fights leading up to the big fight at the lodge?
Or is it that you're upset that you're fighting vermin instead of demons at 1st level?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's up to you to make the vermin fights as interesting as possible.
Obviously they won't be too interesting no matter what you do.
However, from a sensible stand-point, it would be rather strange not to have the vermin down there.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I actually welcome the vermin fights. My group has been playing PF for roughly three years now, and I can count on one hand the number of vermin they've squared off against. I see this as an opportunity to let them fight something different from the norm! I welcome it!
|
|
How is this different than, say, Runelords where you start out fighting vermin - er, I mean goblins - and then skeletons and hey another goblin or two!
Or say Reign of Winter, where you literally have a conga line of fights leading up to the big fight at the lodge?
Or is it that you're upset that you're fighting vermin instead of demons at 1st level?
I firmly believe that the first combats in a campaign are *really* important - they should engage the players and get them started on a new story. I really believe first encounters should be memorable.
The first encounter in Rise of the Runelords is one of the most memorable ever low level encounters Iv'e seen, with the tiny goblins running around menacing townsfolk, singing their (awesome!) song, gobbling food and falling into buckets filled with water. It's atmospheric, action packed, cool... and could potentially be an actual challenge, with the goblins attacking in waves that include some real foes.
I hated the first encounters in Reign of Winter, as they felt random and disconnected - the very first fight was literally a braindead enemy in a box, that wasn't important or fun in any way.
I'm upset that for any sort of even slightly seasoned player, the fights will be boring.Compare with:
1) Second Darkness - first fight is a dynamic fast paced battle in a casino
2) Legacy of Fire - first "fight" is the PCs running around a camp, putting out fire and helping the locals - immediately requires teamwork and is generally a fun encounter.
3) Curse of the Crimson Throne - first fights are against the lackeys of a highly personal nemesis of the PCs, during a raid on that NPCs hideout.
4) Serpent's Skull - first fight is awesome in a way that any Stephen King fan surely understands
In all the above APs, the first fights were used to propel the players into the story by using a unique, atmospheric encounter to start things up. In WotR, the first fights are the most forgettable thing about the entire module. I consider this a bad thing. It's not at all about wanting PCs to face demon right away - since they are going to be doing that for most of the campaign I think it's great they get to do other things as well. It's about wanting the first time players roll dice in the campaign to leave an impression.
Technically the first fight of the module is watching a Mystic Balor vorpal an ancient silver dragon, with the last action of the latter entity being saving the lives of the players with one last Feather Fall.
You're not going to get much more epic than that. And really, is not fighting entities associated with death and decay after watching such a titanic conflict in many ways related? There is a metaphoric reflection here given the decay and corruption of the Worldwound Crusades and the first several encounters of the module.
|
Creative Director
|
I firmly believe that the first combats in a campaign are *really* important - they should engage the players and get them started on a new story. I really believe first encounters should be memorable.
I agree. And as mentioned above... although it's not a fight, the first encounter in Wrath is the balor vs. dragon fight. And the second encounter is, technically, meeting the fellow NPCs and getting to know them.
Not every first encounter needs to be a comabt.
The vermin encounters at the start of the caves are there for a reason; they're relatively simple, they provide overall adventure encounter variety, and they're not intended to be super challenging since the PCs are cut off from a safe place to recover and rest for quite a while.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Technically the first fight of the module is watching a Mystic Balor vorpal an ancient silver dragon, with the last action of the latter entity being saving the lives of the players with one last Feather Fall.
That's not a fight. That's exposition. The PC's have ZERO effect on this part of the story and it pretty obviously doesn't count.
You're not going to get much more epic than that. And really, is not fighting entities associated with death and decay after watching such a titanic conflict in many ways related?
No. Not in the slightest. Watching a fight that you can in no way effect and actually participating in and altering a story through your actions are two completely different things.
The first "fight" in this AP is against..
Actually there is an excellent reason for them to be there.
It also sets up a future encounter
-------------
As a brief aside, it looks like I'm going to get to run this much earlier than expected as a local store has some Pathfinder players... and they seemed enthused at the idea of being in the game. Thus I'd like some thoughts from other GMs on how to expand on the encounters as it appears likely these will be 20-point builds (so hopefully the characters can be used for points in some Society aspect), and I'd open it up to six players.
While it would be simplicity itself to just increase encounters by 50% to compensate for two additional players, I'm wondering how much the extra five points for stats will impact the games. (Mind you, I'm used to 4d6 rolls with characters who'd be 30+ point builds, so it's not compensating for more powerful players... just a MODEST increase which has me scratching my head.)
Would you guys recommend just adding say +2 hit points per hit die or something more?
Well, it only works for Paladins, if you go by its description. You are of course free to change that.
Regarding the weapon-that-shall-not-be-named:
** spoiler omitted **
Also, remind me again why we are using spoilers in a GM reference thread?
Mostly because sometimes players will wander into these threads by mistake, at least that's why I use them. Also, helps to avoid wall of text posts when people have lengthy questions or answers.
As for your question. I'd rule it like this:
That's how I'd handle it anyway, others may have varying opinions on the matter.
Regarding the weapon-that-shall-not-be-named:
** spoiler omitted **
Also, remind me again why we are using spoilers in a GM reference thread?
i was wondering about this too
|
Creative Director
|
Regarding the weapon-that-shall-not-be-named:
** spoiler omitted **
Also, remind me again why we are using spoilers in a GM reference thread?
It would indeed turn into a longbow for a paladin of Erastil. For a paladin of Irori, though, it has to remain a weapon—it would become a monk weapon. I'd suggest quarterstaff.
It would indeed turn into a longbow for a paladin of Erastil. For a paladin of Irori, though, it has to remain a weapon—it would become a monk weapon. I'd suggest quarterstaff.Regarding the weapon-that-shall-not-be-named:
** spoiler omitted **
Also, remind me again why we are using spoilers in a GM reference thread?
so then how would this work? would the arrows become cold iron arrows?
|
Creative Director
|
so then how would this work? would the arrows become cold iron arrows?It would indeed turn into a longbow for a paladin of Erastil. For a paladin of Irori, though, it has to remain a weapon—it would become a monk weapon. I'd suggest quarterstaff.Regarding the weapon-that-shall-not-be-named:
** spoiler omitted **
Also, remind me again why we are using spoilers in a GM reference thread?
They would not become cold iron; you'd need to buy those normally.
Basically, you're trading off the benefit of cold iron for the benefit of a ranged attack.
Well you don't see a lot of people clubbing creatures with a cold iron bow so i would assume it would make the ammo cold iron. look to a flaming burst or flaming bow and if they convey their properties to the ammo then use that as a reference point:)
|
|
Another thing; it's worth remembering that vermin actually ARE on theme for this AP. Deskari is, after all, the demon lord of infestations, among other things. That's why there's a lot of demonic vermin in the Worldwound. There will be more.
I'm not at all opposed to using vermin for encounter in the AP. I'm specifically saying that, as a first combat encounter, the vermin are very underwhelming in that they are not good at calling attention to the game.
I get what you are saying about not all first encounters having to be about combat - but I think that if X is a thing, then the first X in the AP carries an extra pressure to stand out and be good. Saying that the part with the balor fighting the dragon is a strong opening is a little like saying that a movie has an exciting start if the theater aired some really good trailers before it started the main show. The part with the ruination of Kenabres is not gameplay, it's just (very) recent background.
I mean... Mr Jacobs, you have either personally or indirectly been a big part of designing all of my favorite AP openings. When I read the first part of "Souls for Smuggler's Shiv" I already knew, immediately, that I have to run the adventure, if only for that start.
Do you honestly believe that the vermin encounter is on par with, say, the goblin raid in RotR? with the attack on Lamm's hideout in CotCT? If you honestly do, I'll bow my head and accept that I haven't run the adventure yet, and you have more skills and experience with the system than I do and are the better judge of what works and what not so much. If not, then I hope you'll see my point about the first encounter in this AP leaving something to be desired. I really hope to see better first encounters in the next APs. I do believe it's something that it's a point that should be made clear to designers making the first part of an AP - the first combat is important. Make sure that it doesn't feel too standard.
Till then, may we see many more vermin to come, in more appropriate positioning within the adventure :)
|
|
For example, let's say that we still would have had vermin encounters, but instead of running across the vermin slowly, room by room, all the vermin are in the cave with the PCs. Let's say they wake up in the darkness, scramble to find a sort of light, and as soon as they get say a tourch going... suddenly they are aware of hundreds of bugs scuttling around them in the long undisturbed cavern, and several big bugs are crawling in from all direction. What follows could be like the scene in the new "King Kong",
I'm talking about maybe combining all the vermin from all the first encounters into the same one, and then even maybe adding some, and have the bugs attack at waves, from different locations. Have them surround the party, be grouse, induce despair and fear, and attack the NPCs as well as the PCs.
Suddenly the PCs are in a horror setting , scrambling to survive and help the NPCs (some with broken legs, some blind...). Suddenly, there's a lot of roleplay, tension and flavor in the very first moment of the game, and a maybe very memorable fight as the PCs just have to work togather with each other and their allies to survive. And when they win, perhaps even without losing a single NPC in the process... it's a heroic start to a heroic adventure!
now THAT would be a first encounter, indeed. Instead, we just get a couple of fights that are easily replaceable and forgettable. That's fine, most fights should be - we don't have enough spare memory to remember them all. In the middle of an adventure, or even after 10% of it are spent, that's fine. At the very first moment, not so much...
IMHO, of course.
Because we're talking about 1st level characters. One lucky critical and a PC is dead. Twenty vermin, even half-hit-dice vermin, will slaughter a 1st level party. And in that encounter in Peter Jackson's King Kong... there were what, two, three survivors? Out of how many?
So what do you do, put a bunch of survivors down there and have everyone but the Important Three eaten by vermin? Because that doesn't serve a purpose really except to make the PCs feel powerless. Moreso than a Balor vorpaling the silver dragon protector who saved their lives would do.
You can rescript the start of the module however you want really. You can have a swarm of vermin overwhelm them and then be surprised when you have a TPK with critters that you could have sworn weren't that deadly.
As for me?
And yes, it'll be outright railroading.
|
|
Because we're talking about 1st level characters. One lucky critical and a PC is dead. Twenty vermin, even half-hit-dice vermin, will slaughter a 1st level party. And in that encounter in Peter Jackson's King Kong... there were what, two, three survivors? Out of how many?
So what do you do, put a bunch of survivors down there and have everyone but the Important Three eaten by vermin? Because that doesn't serve a purpose really except to make the PCs feel powerless. Moreso than a Balor vorpaling the silver dragon protector who saved their lives would do.
You can rescript the start of the module however you want really. You can have a swarm of vermin overwhelm them and then be surprised when you have a TPK with critters that you could have sworn weren't that deadly.
As for me?
** spoiler omitted **
As I said, the bugs would come in waves, the PCs will have 3 NPCs that, while they might require help in the form of actions spent to get them out of harm's way, could become helpful during combat. Plus most of the vermin would be regular versions of their kind (like actual spiders, not giant spiders). It's enough to have about 6, 7 monstrous bugs that come in two waves to create a challenging but not overwhelming combat. Iv'e actually done something like that before against non optimized PCs (4 of them) and they survived. The difficulty is not much greater than the raid on Sandpoint in RotR, for example.
Plus, other sorts of ad hoc help, for example the vermin could be afraid of light because they've never been exposed to it before, so maybe strong light sources will force the bugs to roll will saves to avoid scuttling out of the range of torchlight. This helps the PCs by giving them attacks of opportunity and adds more strategy and flavor to the fight.I'm just saying, if the adventure could engineer a way for 5th level PCs to fight a CR 11 encounter, it could probably make something more high impact work at the start of the adventure, too.
By the way, your idea to add a couple of unimportant NPCs who might die during the combat is a great one! I'm stealing it if I ever run the adventure!
Contributor
|
It would indeed turn into a longbow for a paladin of Erastil. For a paladin of Irori, though, it has to remain a weapon—it would become a monk weapon. I'd suggest quarterstaff.Regarding the weapon-that-shall-not-be-named:
** spoiler omitted **
Also, remind me again why we are using spoilers in a GM reference thread?
REAL men use Temple Swords. Assuming their paladin is a monk/paladin. ;P
(Mine is a cleric/monk/paladin, but that's another story)
Greetings, fellow travellers.
I'm really liking the 1st module of this AP despite the--at least to me--annoying glitches that seemed to have happened during editing (never noticed so many before). Apart from that, I felt thrilled right from the moment I read the cut scene kicking of the mythic ride which will hopefully give the PCs a glimpse of what they're up to in thsi AP.
My question concerns the maps: why are there no maps for areas D, E, F, and G? It's not a big deal since the descriptions are pretty good, but that warrants another question: why are there maps for areas A to C (since they sport similar descriptive text?
Ruyan.
Greetings, fellow travellers.
I'm really liking the 1st module of this AP despite the--at least to me--annoying glitches that seemed to have happened during editing (never noticed so many before). Apart from that, I felt thrilled right from the moment I read the cut scene kicking of the mythic ride which will hopefully give the PCs a glimpse of what they're up to in thsi AP.
My question concerns the maps: why are there no maps for areas D, E, F, and G? It's not a big deal since the descriptions are pretty good, but that warrants another question: why are there maps for areas A to C (since they sport similar descriptive text?
Ruyan.
There are battles in A,B, and C but none in the others. That and the need to save room for other things is probably the main reason.
I would have loved to see a map for G though.
|
Creative Director
|
Do you honestly believe that the vermin encounter is on par with, say, the goblin raid in RotR? with the attack on Lamm's hideout in CotCT? If you honestly do, I'll bow my head and accept that I haven't run the adventure yet, and you have more skills and experience with the system than I do and are the better judge of what works and what not so much. If not, then I hope you'll see my point about the first encounter in this AP leaving something to be desired. I really hope to see better first encounters in the next APs. I do believe it's something that it's a point that should be made clear to designers making the first part of an AP - the first combat is important. Make sure that it doesn't feel too standard.
No. But as I said above... the vermin encounter isn't the thing that folks will remember about the start of the AP. It's not supposed to be that thing.
Not every campaign needs to start with rolling initiative.
BUT if you want to involve the PCs in a big major combat at the start, the best bet is to play out that first scene and have them fight against some low-CR foes until they end up in the situation that starts the adventure off. Which will be tricky... and might require some railroading... but that's a call you'll have to make if you go that route.
So...I had my first PC death in Wrath two nights ago. Spoilering just to be safe as it does call out some specific spoilers in the first book.
Bit of relevant background information: One character was playing a monk that had done some horrible things in his past but begun to repent. As a result his soul ended up somewhere between heaven and the abyss and he was sent back to 'tip the balance' as it were. Long story short he ends up in Kenabres and stays with a kindly guard, his wife, and two daughters. During the city collapse, he was with the guard friend who died from the fall but not before asking him to look after his family.
This was some setup on my part to give him a real motivation once he got to the city. Which he grabbed onto and insisted the party find the family and ensure they are alright. The house was a bit from where they came up so they traveled that way.
On the way I had rolled one encounter where I ran the demon in the clothing store (can't recall exact name or spelling). They slaughtered it pretty fast.
The other encounter I had tied into his character was the 'mad crusaders' one. One of the daughters was the one out scouting for food as the mother had been injured previously in an altercation with a tiefling looter. Said crusaders had found her and were going to make their demon slaying sword when the party finds them.
The party determines pretty quickly they are nuts and diplomacy fails so the monk rushes in. The battle goes terribly, with the monk dropping several times and eventually getting hit with a crit and going down for good.
So with all that out of the way, wanted to ask the following:
1) How would you have handled the death? I have not had a lot of PCs die over the course of my gaming and there wasn't much I could fudge in the case to save him.
2) Is that encounter a bit too powerful or was it the circumstances with the weakened party? I'm thinking partly the enemies mentioned are too strong (see below).
Bit more info:
- Said encounter has some pretty beefy first level crusaders. They all have a solid 20 AC and +4 to attacks. My dice were being malevolent that night and most rolls were hitting around 14+ so I know I can chalk some of it up to that.
- What I did do is roll when they got to Blackwing (I gave it a 3% chance there might be a raise dead scroll left on one of the shelves). I rolled 2 so they brought back the monk with the negative levels. Whether this is just extreme luck or a deity intervening slightly I hadn't decided heh. I figured he hadn't been back long enough for the angels or demons to decide anyway as it seemed a waste to lose a cool character idea.
Wondering if I should assume someone at the Inn would have a restoration for him when they get there as well?
No one has started a seperated obituary thread, yet?
It shall be done!
Ruyan.
As I said, the bugs would come in waves, the PCs will have 3 NPCs that, while they might require help in the form of actions spent to get them out of harm's way, could become helpful during combat. Plus most of the vermin would be regular versions of their kind (like actual spiders, not giant spiders). It's enough to have about 6, 7 monstrous bugs that come in two waves to create a challenging but not overwhelming combat. Iv'e actually done something like that before against non optimized PCs (4 of them) and they survived. The difficulty is not much greater than the raid on Sandpoint in RotR, for example.
Plus, other sorts of ad hoc help, for example the vermin could be afraid of light because they've never been exposed to it before, so maybe strong light sources will force the bugs to roll will saves to avoid scuttling out of the range of torchlight. This helps the PCs by giving them attacks of opportunity and adds more strategy and flavor to the fight.
I'm with Tangent101 on this one. I think you're underestimating the power of clumping all the vermin together. Even if you do it in waves it's still a bit much. Enemies in waves is a highly resource-taxing encounter only marginally less brutal than "all at once". While that can make the difference at higher levels, at Level 1 it won't really matter all that much to a party whether it's all at once or in waves. It's too much.
The reason the goblins in waves worked for RotRL is because GMs are directed to purposely handicap the goblins through self-sabotage. The reason the 1st-Level party can take that many goblins in their first fight in only in part due to them being in waves, the handicapping plays a major factor. I've seen posts on these boards before of GMs who chose to ignore the goblin self-sabotage and ended up with a TPK or near-TPK right in Chapter One of Burnt Offerings.
That being said, if you were to go through with waves of vermin then I do think you're idea of ad hoc handicapping the vermin is the only way to go. If the difficulty of the massed vermin is only "not much greater" than the RotRL goblins, and if the RotRL goblins are barely survivable if you don't handicap them, then you'll definitely need to handicap the vermin.
I'm just saying, if the adventure could engineer a way for 5th level PCs to fight a CR 11 encounter, it could probably make something more high impact work at the start of the adventure, too.
The adventure is able to engineer that encounter by working the party's Ascension into it. It's not just any old random "high-impact" mechanic. It's THE High Impact mechanic. If Ascension wasn't a thing, then there's not much you could do to fairly weight an encounter with a CR difference of 5 to 6. At least not at low levels. Or not without repeating the standard go-to's: Artifacts and Divine Intervention. I guess you could give them a luck dragon to ride and shout Go Falkor!
Regarding Artifacts - they party is already going to get plenty of those. There are already three spaced throughout this adventure (well, one's a Legendary Item - same thing). As for Divine Intervention, there's already plenty of that to go around in this AP as well. So do we really need to stack something like this in the very first encounter as well? Let's have one chapter of the adventure where the party has to roll around in the muck for a bit before they become divine super-warriors. The contrast is appropriate and helps to hammer home the special nature of the PCs later on. Running the game on 11 from start to finish can actually dilute the mood if there's no contrast.
You could also adjust the first combat by infusing it with some of the elements that are thematic for this AP. For example, give the creatures the Fiendish template and/or describe them as bursting forth in a profusion with two masses of the creatures rising up as separate entities comprised of a mass of wriggling, squirming forms. That gives more of a demonic, infestational theme to the first combat.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
I started the AP last night with 7 players starting at level 2 and want to share how I handled it in the hope of providing some ideas to other GMs. The PCs started in Old Kenabres where outside the cathedral they gave their names to the clerk and were told to come back on Sunday for the ritual taking of the Crusaders Oath (the demonic looking PC was hauled off by Liotr Hawkblade for questioning, but found to be an aasimar). Each PC was given a choice of something to check out in Old Kenabres - the wardstone, a statue in the plaza, or the view of the crusader camps.
The wardstone PCs got an up close view of the crack made 20 years ago by the Storm King and saw the Iomedaen priests bolstering the stone with prayers. I also placed Shaunton Vhane here ('there is a dwarf commander') so some PCs can see him and later will realize that he blows up the Kite to provide a straight shot for the Balor. The Priests of the Iomedae are portrayed as the steel backbone of the Crusades and they bless (cast aid on) the PCs there.
The PCs that went to the plaza visited the statue of Prince Zhakar of Mendev and could learn his identity/history if they made knowledge checks. In any event, Terendelev in the guise of a silver-haired veteran warrior approached and filled in the story gaps, thanked the PCs for joining the Crusades, etc. After casting detect magic on the items thrown into the fountain, the PCs also discovered graffiti on the fountain in the form of (an arcane mark of) the old symbol of Baphomet.
The PCs on the walls see the crusader camps which were described in a way to suggest that they don't work well together, national rivalries from other areas of Golarion also exist here, etc. They were joined by a local (i.e. a non-crusader in my case an iobarian centaur) who again filled in the Knowledge roll gaps but whose real purpose is to reinforce the bad blood between the local pagans and the occupying crusaders when 'the spys' were all chased off the walls by guards.
At that point, the Kite was blown up, the Storm King burns in and destroys the wardstone with 'a black chisel', the nearby PCs were blown to the rest of the party and healed by the positive energy released by the stone (setting up the similar effect at the end of the book), and a rift opens and fiendish goblins spill out (a tip of the cap to ROTR) and fight the PCs while chaos ensues around them. The party saw the silver-haired warrior step up to challenge the balor, witnessed his change into a dragon, and a short but fierce battle. Much of it was in the air, and Terendelev had cast repulsion, so I was not worried about PCs getting involved. Just as the balor was about to deliver the coup de grace, another rift opened and the PCs plunged into darkness.
Sorry for the long post, but there was good energy at the table and it felt like a big start to an epic adventure so I encourage others to break open the boxed text as well.
I must admit I'm curious about something. Does Mythic Adventures and WotR assume that Hero Points are NOT in use?
I've noticed that a number of the Mythic abilities are quite similar to benefits from using Hero Points. Also, the second book strongly suggested using Hero Points if the GM doesn't want to use the Mythic rules.
(I must admit I'm contemplating using Hero Points for The Worldwound Incursion and then eliminating them when the players become Mythic. This would provide players with a means of escaping death upon reaching 2nd level until they become Mythic, as well as providing a hint at the mythic nature of the characters prior to their Ascension.)