Make odd stat points useful

[Celanian]

One problem with the pathfinder/d&d 3.x system is that odd stat points are simply not useful. There is almost no difference between a 14 and 15 stat.

Here is a proposal to make the odd stat points useful by splitting up some of the benefits:

Str:
Odd stat point adds +1 attack bonus
Even stat point adds +1 damage and +1 str skills.

Dex:
Odd stat point adds +1 range to hit and +1 reflex save
Even stat point adds +1 AC and +1 dex skills.

Con:
Odd stat point adds +1 Fort saves and +1 con skills
Even stat point adds +1 HP/Level

Int:
Odd stat point adds +1 Int skills and +1 language
Even stat point gives you +1 skill point per level.

Wis:
Odd stat point adds +1 Wis skills and class abilities that depend on Wis modifier
Even stat point adds +1 Will save

Chr:
Odd stat point adds +1 Chr skills
Even stat point adds to class abilities that depend on Chr modifier

You need the even stat point to get the bonus spells for the casting stats.

An example would be that a 13 str would give +2 to hit and +1 damage. 15 int would give you +3 to spellcraft and other int skils and 3 languages, but only 2 skill points per level.

The point is to try and split up the benefits for +2 stats into as close as possible to 2 equal parts and give half the bonuses to the odd point and half to the even point. You might quibble with how I allocated the split, but it's the general principle that I'm interested in promoting.

Thoughts?

[Loub]

This seems like a step backwards in terms of streamlining the system.
Basically, a similar mechanic was adopted in 2nd Edition D&D, and it was repealed in 3.0 for being too complicated.

[mplindustries]

The best solution, in my mind is probably to just have stats that range from -5 to +5 (or whatever cap you want).

The only reason to do it the way D&D currently does it is:
1) Tradition
2) So you can roll 3d6 for attributes, which is a terrible idea anyway

That said, the original 3rd edition answer to the odd stats was to use them for feat pre-reqs. Literally every attribute pre-req is odd, it's just that Pathfinder has severely downplayed attribute pre-reqs.

[Humphry B ManWitch]

Agreed this would be way to complicated. your best bet is to find a nice magical trinket that boosts your odd stat by one thus benefiting by the odd stat and remember when you are con drained by 1 that 15 con is stopping you from loosing hit points

[bodhranist]

Go count the number of Constitution based skills. It shouldn't take long. :)

[Eideann]

Odd Con is useful, that is one more hp you can lose before you die.

Not a bad idea, but I think you would have to be more consistent, saves should all be either Odd or Even, skills same thing.

[Vendis]

Humphry B ManWitch wrote:

Agreed this would be way to complicated. your best bet is to find a nice magical trinket that boosts your odd stat by one thus benefiting by the odd stat and remember when you are con drained by 1 that 15 con is stopping you from loosing hit points

There isn't an item that increases any ability score by one. Even if there were, it wouldn't do anything per Pathfinder rules. That situation and the one you described about losing con are defined in their own respective places on this page.

Ability Score Bonuses wrote:

Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.

Ability Score Damage wrote:

For every 2 points of damage you take to a single ability, apply a –1 penalty to skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. If the amount of ability damage you have taken equals or exceeds your ability score, you immediately fall unconscious until the damage is less than your ability score.

Basically, a +1 doesn't do anything. It's not until it becomes a +2 that any effect is had.

The reasoning for this is that if a magic spell or poison or whatever is meant to take a certain toll on character. If the math is done straight, in the way you described, then roughly half of the population of the world wouldn't be affected in the same way as the other half when referring to an odd bonus or penalty. By only applying a change after every two bonus points or two penalty points, everyone sees the same change after the effect is applied.

[Vendis]

To the OP: Usually feats and the like require odd points in stats, specifically for the reason you specified. They have been made useful, but it's much less apparent than all of the bonuses that come with getting that next even ability point.

I personally dislike either resorting to magic items or waiting until 8th level to receive a bonus to a main stat if I start with even, or waiting from after 4th until 12th if I start with an odd.

I'm also not a big fan of the Big Six play style, but I almost always end up in it, because it's pretty hard to deny that it's the strongest way to play the game.

[TheRedArmy]

I don't think it's too bad. Even essentially works the same, so it's only a minor bookkeeping increase.

I've thought about something like this before, and had a similar system. I think this is probably a better way to go about it.

If your group is dissatisfied with odd numbers being so...useless, this is a capable system to fix the issue.

[GeneticDrift]

Ability Drain

Ability drain actually reduces the relevant ability score. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to lose skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. Ability drain can be healed through the use of spells such as restoration.

[Celanian]

Thanks for the feedback.

I think I agree that I should be consistent on the effects where possible at odd and even stats.

Here are general benefits that should be consistent:

Skill bonuses
Bonus spells
Save DCs
Save bonuses
class features

I also want to give as close as possible to equal benefits between even and odd stat points with ties going to even points.

Here are the benefits as far as I know for each stat and how I would divide them:

Str:
+1 melee to hit, +1 damage, +1 str skills, +1 str checks

Odd: +1 melee to hit and +1 str checks
Even: +1 dmg and +1 str skills

Dex:
+1 AC, +1 range to hit, +1 dex skills, +1 reflex saves

Odd: +1 range to hit, +1 reflex saves
Even: +1 AC, +1 dex skills

Con:
+1 hp/lvl, +1 fort saves

Odd: +1 fort saves
Even: +1 hp/lvl

Int:
+1 skill pt/lvl, +1 language, +1 int skills, bonus spells, +1 save DC, +1 class feature

Odd: bonus spells, +1 class feature, +1 language
Even: +1 Save DC, +1 skill pt/lvl, +1 int skills

Wis:
+1 Will saves, +1 wis skills, bonus spells, +1 class feature, +1 save DCs

Odd: +1 Will save, bonus spells, +1 class feature
Even: +1 save DC, +1 wis skills

Chr:
+1 chr skills, bonus spells, +1 class feature, +1 save DCs

Odd: bonus spells, +1 class feature
Even: +1 chr skills, +1 Save DCs

This version is probably slightly better than the first one since it's a little more consistent on when you get benefits.

You can reverse this process if someone dumps a stat during character creation or if there's ability drain/damage and their stat is less than 10.

It may be slightly more complicated than the base rules, but I think the fact that every point counts is very important and probably a little more realistic (within the D&D framework at least).

[deuxhero]

Strength already has a purpose for odd ability scores.

[aceDiamond]

I think that the system already rewards odd stat figures, as there are several feats that require a minimum of an odd statistic to take.

[Zhayne]

aceDiamond wrote:

I think that the system already rewards odd stat figures, as there are several feats that require a minimum of an odd statistic to take.

This is what I was just about to say. I'd bet beryllium to bean dip that this is the sole reason all the feats with attribute minimums have odd numbers.

[Celanian]

Feat prerequisites give a benefit to only 1 specific odd stat point, not odd stat points in general. Having a 13 str or dex to qualify for a feat doesn't help you if you have a 11 or 15 str/dex for example.

[Zhayne]

Then you should be planning ahead and puttinh the appropriate score you want in that stat, if feat qualifications is all you need it for. If your fighter needs a 13 INT for Combat Expertise, and you don't have another feat that requires more, then just put a 13 there.

[Ciaran Barnes]

This is unneccessary. You want to do something with your odd ability score? Put another point into it when you level up.

[Loub]

Ciaran Barnes wrote:

This is unneccessary. You want to do something with your odd ability score? Put another point into it when you level up.

Amen.

[aceDiamond]

Ciaran Barnes wrote:

This is unneccessary. You want to do something with your odd ability score? Put another point into it when you level up.

Or if you have the appropriate resources, there's always Wish.

[Zaister]

Celanian wrote:

One problem with the pathfinder/d&d 3.x system is that odd stat points are simply not useful. There is almost no difference between a 14 and 15 stat.

Actually, this is by design in d20 systems. You might have noticed that stat prerequisites for feats, prestige classes and the like are always odd. This is your benefit from an odd stat value.

even value: new stat bonus level
odd value: new prerequisite level

[Thanael]

mplindustries wrote:

The best solution, in my mind is probably to just have stats that range from -5 to +5 (or whatever cap you want).

Which is what Steve Kenson did in his streamlined D20 Blue Rose RPG which evolved to True20 and then Mutants and Masterminds.

Quote:

The only reason to do it the way D&D currently does it is:

1) Tradition
2) So you can roll 3d6 for attributes, which is a terrible idea anyway

That said, the original 3rd edition answer to the odd stats was to use them for feat pre-reqs. Literally every attribute pre-req is odd, it's just that Pathfinder has severely downplayed attribute pre-reqs.

Good point on the prereqs though.