Goblin Squad Member
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I was curious, what PvE options do trained bandits have to put their skills to use?
I am mostly thinking of using hideouts and ambush versus either NPC mobs in escalations or NPC mobs traveling in the wilderness areas.
This could be one way for bandits, especially CG bandits to benefit their settlements, during times of peace. In times of war, that is when these bandits will turn their skills and attention to PvP and fighting the enemies of their settlement.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Anyone who's skill set is optimized for PvP combat will have within that skill set some feats that are transferable to general combat. You might not be optimized for every engagement, of course. Even someone with skills optimized to fight one PvE enemy (undead) won't always be optimized to fight another (goblinoids), and they won't be optimized to fight in PvP. Stealth skills might work one place and be useless the next.
So what PvE options are available to people trained for PvP? The same as for everyone else: it will depend on your skills.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I realize that skills used for PvP, such as basic combat skills, can be equally applied to both PvP and PvE.
I was more particularly interested in the use of hideouts versus the incursions of a growing escalation.
I'm also wondering about the nature of NPC mobs in the wilderness. Are these always going to be berserker wild animals, roving hordes of goblins, or will there be other neutral or good NPC mobs that might react differently to the presence of PCs?
Will there be a roving patrol of NPC (human) Wardens or Hellknighhts, that can be attacked by PvE minded bandits.
Will there be traveling NPC slavers that CG bandits could launch an ambush against, from their hideout?
I'm hoping that escalations are based on the type of settlement that they are next to. So an escalation next to a Lawful Evil settlement would be a developing presence of "good" that needs to be crushed. Obviously, the reverse will likely be true, a good settlement ok'd be plagued by a growing evil.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Would you support having randomly-spawning NPC settlements for siege experts and soldiers/military leaders to attack? Or NPC merchants with whom player merchants can haggle? How about assassinating NPC settlement leaders?
The randomly spawning NPC settlements are the escalations. Soldiers can attack these escalations or possibly even use formation combat against them. Siege engines versus escalations would be very time consuming and expensive, but possible within the current plans for the game I would think. Assassinating NPC leaders, also escalation content.
As far as NPC merchants, I'm not sure there will be any. If there are, nothing is stopping you from haggling with them all day if you like. Actually, Skyrim has a system where you can haggle with NPC merchants, so it is programmable.
So all of the things you ask for are already included in the escalation system or could be done.
You have captured the essential drift if this thread. The question that I ask is, what skills, features and activities that we use for PvP could also have PvE applications?
I think that the escalations may provide the short answer to that question.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You have captured the essential drift if this thread. The question that I ask is, what skills, features and activities that we use for PvP could also have PvE applications?
I think that the escalations may provide the short answer to that question.
I would be very happy to do away with the PvP vs PvE skill dichotomy, or at least minimize it as much as possible.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Building upon Tuoweit's comment (which I cannot agree with more), GW should just insure NPCs utilize the "desired play behaviours". Escalations should require the movement of goods and troops.
How do bandits fit in? NPCs should utilize the caravan mechanic and traveler flags when moving. You should be able to SAD NPCs heading to an escalation in the same manner as you SAD caravans coming into a PvP war zone. You should be able to utilize all the same mechanics you already have...if only they do not create separate mechanics for PvP and PvE, instead utilize the the same mechanic for like events.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Building upon Tuoweit's comment (which I cannot agree with more), GW should just insure NPCs utilize the "desired play behaviours". Escalations should require the movement of goods and troops.
How do bandits fit in? NPCs should utilize the caravan mechanic and traveler flags when moving. You should be able to SAD NPCs heading to an escalation in the same manner as you SAD caravans coming into a PvP war zone. You should be able to utilize all the same mechanics you already have...if only they do not create separate mechanics for PvP and PvE, instead utilize the the same mechanic for like events.
The reasons why this idea of the SAD mechanic is not appropriate use of ability.
1. This topic is about PvE uses of bandit skills, or features. Hideouts and ambush primarily are at the center of that discussion.
2. Flagging so near a settlement hex for PvP would only invite PvP, and not allow the more PvE minded bandit peace to use his/her skills against the escalation.
3. SADing an NPC is not mechanically possible or planned for. It opens a trade window, includes a negotiation and a decision on the part of the target. Those are things an NPC monster / humanoid can not do or won't do.
SADing an NPC is unnecessary. You just kill escalation mobs, not negotiate with them. You loot them for 100%, not the 75 / 25 like a PC corpse.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The reasons why this idea of the SAD mechanic is not appropriate use of ability.1. This topic is about PvE uses of bandit skills, or features. Hideouts and ambush primarily are at the center of that discussion.
Understood, I am saying there should be no difference between the in-game mechanics of PvE and PvP.
2. Flagging so near a settlement hex for PvP would only invite PvP, and not allow the more PvE minded bandit peace to use his/her skills against the escalation.
Sorry for being dense, I am not sure what you are saying here. If a bandit only wants to rob NPCs, do so. I don't see the issue.
3. SADing an NPC is not mechanically possible or planned for. It opens a trade window, includes a negotiation and a decision on the part of the target. Those are things an NPC monster / humanoid can not do or won't do.
I am saying it should not only be possible, but should be both planned for and encouraged in the usual ways. If you are saying it cannot be done, feel free to explain why.
SADing an NPC is unnecessary. You just kill escalation mobs, not negotiate with them. You loot them for 100%, not the 75 / 25 like a PC corpse.
Then what makes you a bandit? I am confused about what you are asking for. I thought you were asking how bandits, or those who want to be able to play as bandits, will be able to interact meaningfully during escalations...as bandits. My response, rob the people bringing the fight to the escalations or rob the mobs in the escalation. What else are you asking for? Why would you not want to use the same mechanics for either? And I guarantee mods will be looted for much less than 100%...originally they only wanted mobs to be looted for useful crafting scraps.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@kitnyx
Perhaps you don't know, the SAD mechanic is not available for use unless you flag as an Outlaw first. That make the SAD mechanic strictly a PvP function.
The SAD mechanic opens a trade window. You can not open a trade window with an escalation mob.
There is no reason to use the SAD mechanic versus NPC mobs. A bandit is better off using their ambush skills, and launching a surprise attack.
The question I have is, will bandits be able to use hideouts versus escalation mobs?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Perhaps you don't know, the SAD mechanic is not available for use unless you flag as an Outlaw first.
I do know this, what is the relevance?
That make the SAD mechanic strictly a PvP function.
If GW decides flags have no use outside PvP in the strictest sense, I would say they are wasting the potential of a good holistic system with some false dichotomy that will only drive a wedge between two communities, each with its own specialties of gameplay.
The SAD mechanic opens a trade window. You can not open a trade window with an escalation mob.
Why not?
There is no reason to use the SAD mechanic versus NPC mobs. A bandit is better off using their ambush skills, and launching a surprise attack.
You should have the same reason to SAD any resident of the River Kingdoms...and I agree, many will think the new loot rules promote attack versus SAD. Each bandit will have to determine their priorities.
The question I have is, will bandits be able to use hideouts versus escalation mobs?
I hope they can...exactly like they can be used for anything else, versus anyone else.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bluddwolf, in my opinion, most PVE will be combat based. If you want to do PvE, as a bandit, put your Combat skill to use. From what I understand from the thread, you also want to involve the hideout in your actions. So what if the hideout does what it does, allows you to hide from maybe income reinforcements, or even the expanding units of a escalation. Then you can use the combat style of bandits (again in my opinion :D) of Hit and Run (guerrilla warfare). This wouldn't stop the escalation, but would help keep it in check till the actual wondering-monster-slaying-characters come to actually squash the escalation. Is this along the lines of something you were looking for?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bluddwolf, in my opinion, most PVE will be combat based. If you want to do PvE, as a bandit, put your Combat skill to use. From what I understand from the thread, you also want to involve the hideout in your actions. So what if the hideout does what it does, allows you to hide from maybe income reinforcements, or even the expanding units of a escalation. Then you can use the combat style of bandits (again in my opinion :D) of Hit and Run (guerrilla warfare). This wouldn't stop the escalation, but would help keep it in check till the actual wondering-monster-slaying-characters come to actually squash the escalation. Is this along the lines of something you were looking for?
Exactly this..... This way we can train our specific skills for PvP, but still have a PvE application for them versus escalations or other NPC mobs in the wilderness.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bluddwolf, in my opinion, most PVE will be combat based. If you want to do PvE, as a bandit, put your Combat skill to use. From what I understand from the thread, you also want to involve the hideout in your actions. So what if the hideout does what it does, allows you to hide from maybe income reinforcements, or even the expanding units of a escalation. Then you can use the combat style of bandits (again in my opinion :D) of Hit and Run (guerrilla warfare). This wouldn't stop the escalation, but would help keep it in check till the actual wondering-monster-slaying-characters come to actually squash the escalation. Is this along the lines of something you were looking for?
Sounds good to me. And I hope these same tactics/mechanics can be used to harry any assaulting force...of any composition. I still do not see the point of the PvP/PvE distinction.
GW should give us a set of generic gameplay tools/mechanics, what we decide to do with it is up to us.
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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"This email is in response to your petition from 10-24. We've investigated the matter, and determined that the creatures you were killing were working as intended. The reason they had no loot is because they had previously been subjected to a Stand and Deliver from another PC, and gave up all their treasure to save their lives. You may wish to ask the local bandits to stop their 'catch and release' program and actually kill the escalation enemies."
Which is to say, as amusing as it might be to roll goblins for their lunch money, it may be an extra complicated system (e.g., the AI has to decide whether it thinks it should fight you or just give you the cash) for an end result of making people feel like the targets are bugged. Amusing enough to look into, though; no promises :) .
Hiding from escalation mobs is probably not so hard that a hideout would make a major difference; unlike players, they're probably not going to keep chasing you for very long. Mechanically, charging a creature, getting off a few hits, and running back to a nearby hideout isn't likely to be much different in effect than charging, hitting, and just running off in any direction not clogged with other enemies. It may make sense to specifically apply a threat wipe if you can successfully get into a building, however (if only to prevent weird behaviors of creatures trying to chase you places they can't normally get).
What else do you consider part of the bandit lifestyle that you feel needs a PvE analogue?
As a side note, one of the things we're hoping to do with the creature AI is to get it to prioritize the same targets that other players would. For example, there is no "taunt" type ability, but creatures should try to avoid getting hit with Opportunity attacks (making them more likely to stick on the Fighter). But if there's a Cleric standing just out of range healing its target and applying buffs, the creature should quickly decide it's wasting its time where it is and to risk the Opportunity hit to take out the healer. We're trying to keep from teaching you bad habits that work against AI targets but fail terribly against other players.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I love the idea of a monster AI that is pretty close to a simple, naive player algorithm.
Among other things, that would mean that a monster would be willing to suffer a lot of opportunity attacks if it meant that they could drop someone who is doing a lot of damage before they could get healed, but probably wouldn't take that risk if they couldn't finish off the target. Other actions might be to run away, just like a traveler might- and chasing down the fleeing merchants will likely be identical in principle to chasing down fleeing goblins.
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Goblin Squad Member
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2. Flagging so near a settlement hex for PvP would only invite PvP, and not allow the more PvE minded bandit peace to use his/her skills against the escalation.
When unflagged PvE players are being jumped by bandits and robbed/killed daily, at least I'll know it isn't UnC, right? ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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As a side note, one of the things we're hoping to do with the creature AI is to get it to prioritize the same targets that other players would. For example, there is no "taunt" type ability, but creatures should try to avoid getting hit with Opportunity attacks (making them more likely to stick on the Fighter). But if there's a Cleric standing just out of range healing its target and applying buffs, the creature should quickly decide it's wasting its time where it is and to risk the Opportunity hit to take out the healer. We're...
This I very much like the sound of. Do you have a general plan of a means for players to attempt to defend. IE I'm aware of the opportunity debuff attackers will get on themselves when they attempt to cut past the fighter,
Any idea on tripping, collisions, or other stall tactics that may be available?
I'd say as a former WoW priest, the game demonstrated to me both ends of the spectrum of being wrong. IE PVE in which healers very blatently are keeping the tank up indefinitely, and yet are only harmed by incidental large AoEs, and the PVP arena in which priests never land a heal, because 99.999% of the time, it is a better strategy to ignore all damage currently being dealt to you, and swat that pesky priest before doing anything else.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ideally our PvP skills should also double as PvE skills. No g~~-d$@ned PvP stats, please! They've ruined WoW's PvP aspects by making it all but impossible for beginning players to keep up with us veterans.
In regards to the Escalation vs Hideout point, I think a smart PvE Bandit will focus on a few 'talking' skills. Bluff the Goblins into giving you their treasure. Use Diplomacy to negotiate a modest tithe with the nearby camp of NPC Cultists and encourage them to spread, making them a valuable (and expendable) buffer against the Bounty Hunters after your arse. Use Sense Motive to evaluate if you'll be able to do the Diplomacy in the first place. Use Intimidate to cow the local pixie population into not turning you pink every time you cut through their grove.
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Goblin Squad Member
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"This email is in response to your petition from 10-24. We've investigated the matter, and determined that the creatures you were killing were working as intended. The reason they had no loot is because they had previously been subjected to a Stand and Deliver from another PC, and gave up all their treasure to save their lives. You may wish to ask the local bandits to stop their 'catch and release' program and actually kill the escalation enemies."
Which is to say, as amusing as it might be to roll goblins for their lunch money, bit may be an extra complicated system (e.g., the AI has to decide whether it thinks it should fight you or just give you the cash) for an end result of making people feel like the targets are bugged. Amusing enough to look into, though; no promises :) .
Hiding from escalation mobs is probably not so hard that a hideout would make a major difference; unlike players, they're probably not going to keep chasing you for very long. Mechanically, charging a creature, getting off a few hits, and running back to a nearby hideout isn't likely to be much different in effect than charging, hitting, and just running off in any direction not clogged with other enemies. It may make sense to specifically apply a threat wipe if you can successfully get into a building, however (if only to prevent weird behaviors of creatures trying to chase you places they can't normally get).
What else do you consider part of the bandit lifestyle that you feel needs a PvE analogue?
As a side note, one of the things we're hoping to do with the creature AI is to get it to prioritize the same targets that other players would. For example, there is no "taunt" type ability, but creatures should try to avoid getting hit with Opportunity attacks (making them more likely to stick on the Fighter). But if there's a Cleric standing just out of range healing its target and applying buffs, the creature should quickly decide it's wasting its time where it is and to risk the Opportunity hit to take out the healer. We're...
On the threeBolded points:
1. Yes I knew that using the SAD mechanic against PVE targets would not be easily done, and against monster mobs, completely unnecessary. That is what I tried to explain a few times myself, and the reason why it was not included in my OP.
2. Not knowing all of the functions of the hideouts, other than obviously hiding and storage, I was inquiring to perhaps find out more about their planned functions.
3. Same as hideouts, not sure what bandits skill sets could include, within your plans.
I would think that Intimidation could have an application versus PVE targets, where it obviously has less of an application in PVP.
Intimidation could be used to "stun" a PVE target into inaction, or it could make a PVE target to flee. Fleeing targets could be corralled into a trap or a choke point for ambush.
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Goblin Squad Member
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2. Flagging so near a settlement hex for PvP would only invite PvP, and not allow the more PvE minded bandit peace to use his/her skills against the escalation.When unflagged PvE players are being jumped by bandits and robbed/killed daily, at least I'll know it isn't UnC, right? ;)
When I am in an escalation (Monster Hex), actively taking part in fighting against that escalation, I will not be PVP flagged and I'm not looking to SAD unflagged characters.
What others choose to do is up to them, I only speak for myself.
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Goblin Squad Member
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3. Same as hideouts, not sure what bandits skill sets could include, within your plans.
Bluddwolf, put on your thinking cap, I think this is a direct invitation from one of our primaries to crowd-forge. You're unarguably the lead bandit-advocate here, and I see you being asked to present your thoughts on this point.
The rest of us may comment on what you say, of course--and many will--but I think Stephen's offered you the opportunity to call this particular ball. Time to affect GW's thinking!
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Goblin Squad Member
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"This email is in response to your petition from 10-24. We've investigated the matter, and determined that the creatures you were killing were working as intended. The reason they had no loot is because they had previously been subjected to a Stand and Deliver from another PC, and gave up all their treasure to save their lives. You may wish to ask the local bandits to stop their 'catch and release' program and actually kill the escalation enemies."
Which is to say, as amusing as it might be to roll goblins for their lunch money, it may be an extra complicated system (e.g., the AI has to decide whether it thinks it should fight you or just give you the cash) for an end result of making people feel like the targets are bugged.
Looks to me like it is both logical and consistent in a "persistent" world. In a themepark game, people might see this as a broken (buggy) mechanic; in PfO, I would call it a feature. Imagine the possibilities of what we players could do with such a system.
As for complexity, it is amazing how a system comprised of a multitude of agents with simple behavioural and interaction rules can result in emergent complexity.
Don't try to centrally coordinate, embrace the chaos =).
Amusing enough to look into, though; no promises :) .
Good enough for me. Thanks for looking into it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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3. Same as hideouts, not sure what bandits skill sets could include, within your plans.Bluddwolf, put on your thinking cap, I think this is a direct invitation from one of our primaries to crowd-forge. You're unarguably the lead bandit-advocate here, and I see you being asked to present your thoughts on this point.
The rest of us may comment on what you say, of course--and many will--but I think Stephen's offered you the opportunity to call this particular ball. Time to affect GW's thinking!
I'm working on just this, and I have offered up one or two already in this thread.
For example, there is no "taunt" type ability, but creatures should try to avoid getting hit with Opportunity attacks
Although I'm not sure why there wouldn't be a taunt ability, bandits could employ a similar resulting tactic of "Lure".
Bandits enter the escalation area, stealthed as to not attract too much attention, and lay down some lures that will aggro the Mobs into a desired direction, such as a choke point for ambush.
Stringing these "lures" could actually cover a much longer range than the typical aggro break-off point of a pursuing Mob.
A question: How do Mobs move out from their spawn point?
Is it random or predictable, and can it be controlled?
This is where a hideout can also play a role. A hide out serves three basic functions: Camouflage (hiding), Superior Vantage Point (Observation), and Storage.
Hideouts can range in size and complexity starting with a Hunter's Tree Stand to a Viet Cong style underground complex.
Perhaps a hideout's superior vantage point would allow for the bandits to more accurately predict the makeup of the Mob group (Force Strength), the direction of the movement, and then the probably destination of that force (Knowledge: Local skill).
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Goblin Squad Member
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Although I'm not sure why there wouldn't be a taunt ability, bandits could employ a similar resulting tactic of "Lure".
I think the way GW is trying to work it is: if there was a "taunt" ability for PvE, it would need to work in PVP as well. But players don't really want their characters to be controlled by their enemies' taunts, etc. So if there is no taunt for PvP, there shouldn't be one for PvE.
Likewise lures: how do they work on other players?
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Intimidate works just fine in PnP against players; it applies the shaken condition.
I could see taunt, when successful, giving the target a bonus to attacks vs. the taunter, and/or a penalty to attack a different target. There's no reason why a smart monster AI couldn't react to those effects similarly to how an object-level player would (evaluating whether fleeing is a better course of action than fighting while shaken, rather than fleeing automatically, and deciding if targeting the healer at a penalty is a better course of action than targeting the fighter at a bonus, rather than automatically targeting a taunter.)
Most of that emergent behavior could be simulated by a series of "likes to attack X" modifiers: giants like to attack dwarves, and smart monsters like to attack clerics, but everybody dislikes attacking someone other than the one taunting them; you can taunt a stupid giant or smart Orc off of the dwarf cleric, but a smart giant has two reasons plus and only one against, so it will ignore the taunt.
(example simplified for ease of explanation. The obvious extension of giving each feeling different weights is intended.)