We recently acquired a valuable spell book and as the main Arcane caster in the party it was given to me. In parties past, the caster has always copied spells from the captured book into their own book and then returned the item to party inventory. From there, it would be sold as group loot and the proceeds divvied among the party.
That's how we've always done it... Now, out of the blue, the party's (self-appointed) Quartermaster has determined that the book is, in fact, my solely claimed property and as such is part of my "cut" of loot. Meaning that due to the massive value of the tome, I'm looking at getting little else from the loot pile.
I'm calling foul, here.
What gives? Have I/we been double-dipping all this time? Is it wrong for me to want to simply transfer the spells into my own spell book and not pay for the (apparent) privilege? I mean, the books value doesn't change whether I copy or not...
What are the communities thoughts on this?
Loot division is up to the players/PCs. In our last campaign, my character--as the group's leader and a paladin--had nearly sole discretion on how loot was divided. I gave out gear as PCs wanted/needed it, then gave out gold to compensate those who didn't get any. This time around we're basically giving out gear as needed, then equally dividing up gold regardless of what folks got.
Talk to your whole group, make your case, and see what they say. If you're convincing maybe they'll agree with you. The Quartermaster only has sole authority if the group has given it to him.
The wizard (and other similar "spell book" characters e.g. witch) is the only (few) class(es) that have to pay gold to access their class abilities. Everyone else just gets abilities for leveling up, but the main strength of the wizard is flexibility and access to a huge list of spell - but only if he finds them or pays for them.
If the group makes the wizard count spellbooks as his cut of the loot, then the group is making the wizard pay for class abilities. No other class has this limitation. It's not the same as fighters paying for better weapons and armor because wizards pay for better wands, staves, pearls, etc. Items are not class abilities. Fighters don't pay gold for their bonus feats and weapon training, so why should wizards have to pay gold for their spellcasting?
It's bad enough that it costs gold to copy those spells into the wizard's own spellbook, that is already too much penalty for the core class ability; losing out on a cut of the treasure is way too much.
While I agree with the previous poster who said it's a decision that should be up to the group, and every group divides loot their own way, this is something that I would insist on, and do insist on, when I play wizards. I wouldn't adventure with a group who expected me to sacrifice my cut of the loot for class abilities - as a player, I would find a more reasonable group or just stop playing the wizard (try sorcerer, no such problem).
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Well, unless this is a Blessed Book, and thus a magic item valuable to you in its own right, after you transfer the spells in it into your spellbook, you can sell this thing yourself, right? So you will be able to get both the spells and the "massive value of the tome".
Or am I missing something here?
Loot division is up to the players/PCs.
Yes - completely agree. I'm playing with 1 veteran DM and 3 noobs and 1 other veteran (The quartermaster) who has never played a caster before.
To answer your title correctly...
The Fighter uses them for toilet neccessities.
Quite right - spell books make exquisite TP and excellent tender as well.
The wizard (and other similar "spell book" characters e.g. witch) is the only (few) class(es) that have to pay gold to access their class abilities. Everyone else just gets abilities for leveling up, but the main strength of the wizard is flexibility and access to a huge list of spell - but only if he finds them or pays for them.
If the group makes the wizard count spellbooks as his cut of the loot, then the group is making the wizard pay for class abilities. No other class has this limitation. It's not the same as fighters paying for better weapons and armor because wizards pay for better wands, staves, pearls, etc. Items are not class abilities. Fighters don't pay gold for their bonus feats and weapon training, so why should wizards have to pay gold for their spellcasting?
It's bad enough that it costs gold to copy those spells into the wizard's own spellbook, that is already too much penalty for the core class ability; losing out on a cut of the treasure is way too much.
While I agree with the previous poster who said it's a decision that should be up to the group, and every group divides loot their own way, this is something that I would insist on, and do insist on, when I play wizards. I wouldn't adventure with a group who expected me to sacrifice my cut of the loot for class abilities - as a player, I would find a more reasonable group or just stop playing the wizard (try sorcerer, no such problem).
I'd hate to go this route, but if the QM insists on it then that's what I have to do. He has no problem providing the Cleric with group healing funds (and I agree with that, too), but he wants me to to pay for wands and spell books. Not happy about that.
/ wands - I look at wands found in the dungeon as freebies of sorts. I didn't choose 'em, but I can use 'em. If it means I have to pay for 'em at the end of the day, I'm not really into that.
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Actually in a way I see it as a possible blessing. Have a chat with the GM about how unfair the loot division is. See if he will work with you this one time.
Copy the spells from the book and then sell it. If the GM cooperates you can get that massive value for yourself, more than what the quartermaster expected. Use the cash to buy some nice items that enhance your abilities.
Personally, I have never heard of a group using a "quartermaster." We have someone who writes down the items, then the group decides on who gets what. I would never leave it in the hands of one person. It is a team game, and that should be a team decision.
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Loot division is up to the players/PCs.Yes - completely agree. I'm playing with 1 veteran DM and 3 noobs and 1 other veteran (The quartermaster) who has never played a caster before.
To answer your title correctly...
The Fighter uses them for toilet neccessities.
Quite right - spell books make exquisite TP and excellent tender as well.
I'd hate to go this route, but if the QM insists on it then that's what I have to do. He has no problem providing the Cleric with group healing funds (and I agree...The wizard (and other similar "spell book" characters e.g. witch) is the only (few) class(es) that have to pay gold to access their class abilities. Everyone else just gets abilities for leveling up, but the main strength of the wizard is flexibility and access to a huge list of spell - but only if he finds them or pays for them.
If the group makes the wizard count spellbooks as his cut of the loot, then the group is making the wizard pay for class abilities. No other class has this limitation. It's not the same as fighters paying for better weapons and armor because wizards pay for better wands, staves, pearls, etc. Items are not class abilities. Fighters don't pay gold for their bonus feats and weapon training, so why should wizards have to pay gold for their spellcasting?
It's bad enough that it costs gold to copy those spells into the wizard's own spellbook, that is already too much penalty for the core class ability; losing out on a cut of the treasure is way too much.
While I agree with the previous poster who said it's a decision that should be up to the group, and every group divides loot their own way, this is something that I would insist on, and do insist on, when I play wizards. I wouldn't adventure with a group who expected me to sacrifice my cut of the loot for class abilities - as a player, I would find a more reasonable group or just stop playing the wizard (try sorcerer, no such problem).
Wait... you HAVE to go along with what the QM says? That is WRONG.
If he MAKES you pay for your items, like you say, then hold off on using them. Or charge the party for use. You are getting the short end of the stick.
Krome - no, no, I don't have to do anything. The QM is a player who tends to make group decisions tough. He never really goes with the flow. If he insists on doing things his way, then I would simply abandon the caster PC and go with something else.
/ abandoning the PC is a tough choice - he's has "family" in the party and it would be out of character to leave that person.
// don't want to misrepresent the QM - he's a good guy who has never played a caster and definitely wants his fair share of the loot. Problem with pathfinder is that there is a ton of loot that can work for any given member of the party at any given time. Loot dispersal can be tough at times when every hand goes up, saying "I want it, too!"
We recently acquired a valuable spell book and as the main Arcane caster in the party it was given to me. In parties past, the caster has always copied spells from the captured book into their own book and then returned the item to party inventory. From there, it would be sold as group loot and the proceeds divvied among the party.
That's how we've always done it... Now, out of the blue, the party's (self-appointed) Quartermaster has determined that the book is, in fact, my solely claimed property and as such is part of my "cut" of loot. Meaning that due to the massive value of the tome, I'm looking at getting little else from the loot pile.
While I agree with you and don't think what the "Quartermaster" is doing is all that helpful, I do have a question for clarification:
What's stopping you from still copying the spells and then selling the tome on your own, and pocketing the "massive value" you get from said tome?
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Doesn't matter.
Say the spellbook is worth 10k resale and you've got a party of 4 PCs. Assume you find an additional 30k worth of stuff.
THE OLD WAY
Your PC borrows the spellbook, copies stuff (at his own cost), returns the spell-book, and the 40k total worth of stuff is sold off. Each person's share: 10k.
THE NEW WAY
Your PC is given the spellbook and nothing else. The other three PCs sell off the other 30k worth of stuff and end up with 10k each. You copy the spells (at your own cost) and sell the spellbook for 10k. Each person's profit: 10k.
Well, unless this is a Blessed Book, and thus a magic item valuable to you in its own right, after you transfer the spells in it into your spellbook, you can sell this thing yourself, right? So you will be able to get both the spells and the "massive value of the tome".
Or am I missing something here?
Lets say cuts are 20k (that's with the value of the book added into loot total). Everyone else gets 20k, while I get 10k+book. The book sells for half value, so I get 5k for the resale.
Everyone else gets 20k and I get 15k. I don't see that as very fair. Why can't we all just get the 20k?
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I'm with Zog on this one. How is it different if you get, say, 5000 gp from the party split or 3000 gp and a spell book you can sell for 2000 gp once you're done copying from it?
Generally speaking, the games I'm in don't count potions, scrolls and wands as part of the treasure split. We try to make sure everyone has a healing potion or two. After that, who carries what expendable depends on who can use it (or is most likely to use it). Wands and scrolls to the appropriate classes, buffing potions to front liners, etc.
The main exception to this is CLW wands; usually when we need one, everyone will pitch for it. And its not always an equal split. If the fighter is close to being able to upgrade armor, someone else will make up the different of his share so he doesn't miss out on that extra AC.
I guess I'm pretty lucky in that the folks I am playing with are really cooperative when it comes to this stuff.
Edit: Just saw your most recent post when I finished mine. Your quartermaster is doing the math in a way that makes it less balanced for the group. When figuring out how much treasure is worth in a division, he should be using the sale value of the item, not the book value, for all of the items. So if that +1 mihtril chain shirt is going to the rogue, it should count as 1050 gp of his share, not 2100 gp. The idea is to treat all of the loot as if it were sold and dispersed, not as if the group had already spent some of the money to buy these items. If you find a +1 shield for half the price it would take to have someone make it for you, that's one of the advantages of keeping found treasure.
So in my example above, yes it would be wrong for everyone to get 5000 gp and you get 3000 gp and a book worth 2000 gp that you could only sell for 1000 gp.
Re-edit: Changed wording so I wasn't saying their QM is "playing wrong".
While I agree with you and don't think what the "Quartermaster" is doing is all that helpful, I do have a question for clarification:
What's stopping you from still copying the spells and then selling the tome on your own, and pocketing the "massive value" you get from said tome?
We're "buying" items from the loot pile. Say the loot pile (with the spellbook included) is worth 120k and their are 6 party members. Now let's say that the spell book is worth 10k. Rather than simply copying the spells, I have but the book out of my cut. They each get 20k, and I get 10k+book resale value.
Lets say cuts are 20k (that's with the value of the book added into loot total). Everyone else gets 20k, while I get 10k+book. The book sells for half value, so I get 5k for the resale.
Everyone else gets 20k and I get 15k. I don't see that as very fair. Why can't we all just get the 20k?
So it's actually a question of valuation.
What about other players who get items in the loot division who are just going to sell those items (at half value)?
(Since the book is being sold 100% of the time [you're just going to copy the spells] by anyone in the party, it's value to the party for "buying" loot is only half. Thus, a 10,000 gp spellbook is only worth 5,000 gp to any member of the party, regardless of who they are.)
Your QM's valuation is wrong!
Perhaps it would be more fair if the Quartermaster divides loot by the value you can resell the items, rather than by their full market price?
That's how I would do it, just because there are times when everybody gets stuck with an item they are just going to sell. So, if the fighter wants that +3 sword, he "buys" it from the party loot pile for 9,000 rather than 18,000 gp. And you "buy" your spellbook for whatever the 1/2 price resale value is.
Doing it this way means everybody gets items to use (and resell later if they are replaced) or they get items to sell, but it's all fair and balanced - nobody gets shafted.
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The quartmaster is just mathing wrong. Assume all items are only worth their sale price whenever acquiring loot because if everyone in a group decided they didn't want the item that's all the group could sell it for. Just because a spell book cost 10000 gp to create, no one will ever buy it from you for more than 5,000 gp.
If he continues to push his version of the math simply say you don't want the spell book and that it will be sold on the market and that all treasure value will be split evenly. Then go and specifically purchase the spell scrolls you would like to add to your spell book (because the other spell book is likely to have many of the same spells you already know).
The quartmaster is just mathing wrong. Assume all items are only worth their sale price whenever acquiring loot because if everyone in a group decided they didn't want the item that's all the group could sell it for. Just because a spell book cost 10000 gp to create, no one will ever buy it from you for more than 5,000 gp.
I agree with everyone else -- loot acquired as a share of party treasure should be valued at its resale price, not its retail price. Then you avoid getting ripped off when picking actual items for your share of the loot.
When I play wizards I like to copy any spells from them that I like, then I turn the book in to the local wizarding institution in exchange for access to the library in case I dont find the spells I like. My taste in spells can sometimes be eclectic even by the standards of a class that has the reputation of being such. My party never seems to mind because the spells I learn are the spells I use to make life easier for them. YMMV.
We recently acquired a valuable spell book and as the main Arcane caster in the party it was given to me. In parties past, the caster has always copied spells from the captured book into their own book and then returned the item to party inventory. From there, it would be sold as group loot and the proceeds divvied among the party.
That's how we've always done it... Now, out of the blue, the party's (self-appointed) Quartermaster has determined that the book is, in fact, my solely claimed property and as such is part of my "cut" of loot. Meaning that due to the massive value of the tome, I'm looking at getting little else from the loot pile.
I'm calling foul, here.
What gives? Have I/we been double-dipping all this time? Is it wrong for me to want to simply transfer the spells into my own spell book and not pay for the (apparent) privilege? I mean, the books value doesn't change whether I copy or not...
What are the communities thoughts on this?
Party members can die.
You don't need to pay interest on possessing the spell book for a bit before you sell it and split the profit.
Your "quartermaster" would wake up dead the next morning in our groups. We don't need that kind of draconian loot splitting.
While I agree with you and don't think what the "Quartermaster" is doing is all that helpful, I do have a question for clarification:
What's stopping you from still copying the spells and then selling the tome on your own, and pocketing the "massive value" you get from said tome?
We're "buying" items from the loot pile. Say the loot pile (with the spellbook included) is worth 120k and their are 6 party members. Now let's say that the spell book is worth 10k. Rather than simply copying the spells, I have but the book out of my cut. They each get 20k, and I get 10k+book resale value.
I think the problem is that you guys are valuing the loot at buy value, even though it's actually only worth sell value to you.
A +1 Dagger is worth 2301gp to someone that buys it, but if you find it in the loot pile, its only giving the group 1150.5gp.
If your spellbook costs 10k to buy, its value to the party is only 5k. By charging you 10k, your party is charging you twice what the book is worth to them.
It'd be like selling you a $5 gift card for $10.
Here's the secret, though, to getting around this issue. Don't sell the spellbook. Go to town and sell people the right to copy spells from your book instead.
The fairest way to do things is to pill everything into group funds and have people 'buy out' items they want at sell price (as that is what it is worth to the party). Everything not bought out is sold and split as funds.
Anything which benefits the party but which does not cost the party anything should be encouraged (such as copying spells, using x/day items, borrowing a weapon or armor after it is found, etc.,)
That is the optimal way to do things, but a party may have RP dynamics that prevent that (this is happening to my party, now, I think; it will probably result in death at some point).
That being said, I find it absurd that you have a quartermaster who tells you what your cut of the loot is. I hope you didn't sign a contract.
Does everybody else in the group agree with the Quartermaster? He's one PC, he gets one vote on how stuff works. If more people say 'no, we're not doing that', then you're not doing that.
Be happy you can get any use from a captured spellbook. Our party has captured three so far, and our group's only arcane caster is a witch (who can't learn new spells from books.) :(
And of course I like to carry fancy looking loot spellbooks in an inviting and obviously easy way to steal on my wizards... As I've ran into gms that have a fetish for stealing spellbooks I like to let them know that the thief got away with some crap treasure spellbook while my real spellbooks are hidden elsewhere. First gm who tried to pull this trick on me was like 'is it written that way on your character sheet. I give him my character sheet...
"Thats Bullsh**!"
Sorry to ruin your malevolent plan there dm...
I'd just ell the QM that in the future I will be charging for spellcasting...with all expenses to be paid before the spell is cast.
But then again, I think the QM is being an idiot- it's a bad idea to charge players for treasure that helps keep the party alive. Ask the QM this: does he want you to use the spells to help the party or not?
Well, unless this is a Blessed Book, and thus a magic item valuable to you in its own right, after you transfer the spells in it into your spellbook, you can sell this thing yourself, right? So you will be able to get both the spells and the "massive value of the tome".
Or am I missing something here?
Thats how I would take it.
I get spells then gold...works for me.
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I seem to remember that you can use a spellbook to cast a spell as if you were using a scroll, but I cannot find that in the rules. Doing so would destroy the page, and I don't know if you can use this technique to cast a spell with expensive components.
You cannot do this. A scroll is an actual magic item - a spell competion magic item which is created specifically for the purpose of completing a spell with a few final words etc. A page from a spellbook is not a spell completion magic item - it is essentially just a complex, long form arcane recepie or instruction set on how a spell is to be prepared/memorized.
There might be various house rules and such floating around but this is not something you can officially do in the game
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I'd hate to go this route, but if the QM insists on it then that's what I have to do. He has no problem providing the Cleric with group healing funds (and I agree with that, too), but he wants me to to pay for wands and spell books. Not happy about that.
/ wands - I look at wands found in the dungeon as freebies of sorts. I didn't choose 'em, but I can use 'em. If it means I have to pay for 'em at the end of the day, I'm not really into that.
As usual, it depend. What kinds of wand, and how are you using them?
If there is people in the group that can use the wands beside you (even if with a UMD check) they have a value of them too. Getting them for free because you can use them and using them as you wish would be an advantage for you.If the wands are used only for "party business" and (essentially) when the group fell that is reasonable to use them, they are a shared item and there is no reason why you should pay them (same thing for a cleric and a wand of CLW, if he use it to heal people around [himself included] to have a few extra spell, it is a think, if he use it as the only way to heal and use his spells to buff himself it is very different).
- * -
About the spellbook, in our group generally the wizard pay the purchase price of the new spells in the book, copy them and then the spellbook is sold and the income shared.
On the other hand, the group generally has a shared found to buy specific spells for the wizard and to pay the expenses of writing scrolls used to benefit the party.
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A clarification: what you mean with the "massive value" of the spellbook?
Spelbook are worth relatively little unless you add a surcharge for rare spells. This is not 1st/2ne edition where a spellbook had a high value.
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// don't want to misrepresent the QM - he's a good guy who has never played a caster and definitely wants his fair share of the loot. Problem with pathfinder is that there is a ton of loot that can work for any given member of the party at any given time. Loot dispersal can be tough at times when every hand goes up, saying "I want it, too!"
In my group we tally the value of all loot, we divide that by the number of characters +1 and each character get 1 share worth of purchasing power against the loot found, with one share going to the party founds (raise dead fee, purchasing healing and so on). Some item, like CLW wands and lesser restoration wands go in the party found by default.
If two guys want the same item and can't reach an agreement, they throw a dice. Highest roll choose first.- * -
Well, unless this is a Blessed Book, and thus a magic item valuable to you in its own right, after you transfer the spells in it into your spellbook, you can sell this thing yourself, right? So you will be able to get both the spells and the "massive value of the tome".
Or am I missing something here?
Lets say cuts are 20k (that's with the value of the book added into loot total). Everyone else gets 20k, while I get 10k+book. The book sells for half value, so I get 5k for the resale.
Everyone else gets 20k and I get 15k. I don't see that as very fair. Why can't we all just get the 20k?
The Quartermaster is counting the spellbook as buy price against your part of the loot and the other stuff at sell price? That is a problem.
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And of course I like to carry fancy looking loot spellbooks in an inviting and obviously easy way to steal on my wizards... As I've ran into gms that have a fetish for stealing spellbooks I like to let them know that the thief got away with some crap treasure spellbook while my real spellbooks are hidden elsewhere. First gm who tried to pull this trick on me was like 'is it written that way on your character sheet. I give him my character sheet...
"Thats Bullsh**!"
Sorry to ruin your malevolent plan there dm...
While going out of your way to steal/destroy a PC spellbook for a GM is wrong, blindsiding a GM is as much wrong.
If you find that that kind of antagonistic tactics are a necessity, change gaming group.|
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I seem to remember that you can use a spellbook to cast a spell as if you were using a scroll, but I cannot find that in the rules. Doing so would destroy the page, and I don't know if you can use this technique to cast a spell with expensive components.You cannot do this. A scroll is an actual magic item - a spell competion magic item which is created specifically for the purpose of completing a spell with a few final words etc. A page from a spellbook is not a spell completion magic item - it is essentially just a complex, long form arcane recepie or instruction set on how a spell is to be prepared/memorized.
There might be various house rules and such floating around but this is not something you can officially do in the game
It was possible in 1st edition (it was in an article by Gygax on Dragon and maybe in the Unearthed Arcana book too). there was a good chance to wipe out several spells when doing that, and inscribing a spell in a spellbook had a way higher price in 1st ed. than in 3.x/Pathfinder.
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Um, how about NOT buying the spellbook? Essentially that means there's a spellbook that no one else can use, and if they take it they lose money.
State that you are refusing to buy tomes/spellbooks found because the loot splitting system is not fair, forcing someone else to experience the problem you're having.
This seems simple enough, force someone else to take the fall and see if you can study at libraries or just buy scrolls in towns with the money earned so you're not buying a spellbook with only half the spells you want. If anything you're making a stand.
If they want you to be more USEFUL then they should allow you to have spellbooks for new spells. You'll lag behind in spells for a level or two until they give in and want you casting newer/better spells which then they'll negotiate more or they will be causing themselves to be hurt by having a weak caster.
Why has no one mentioned this before? There's no sense in just taking it up the rear and letting someone walk all over you by charging you to pay for your class abilities.
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And of course I like to carry fancy looking loot spellbooks in an inviting and obviously easy way to steal on my wizards... As I've ran into gms that have a fetish for stealing spellbooks I like to let them know that the thief got away with some crap treasure spellbook while my real spellbooks are hidden elsewhere. First gm who tried to pull this trick on me was like 'is it written that way on your character sheet. I give him my character sheet...
"Thats Bullsh**!"
Sorry to ruin your malevolent plan there dm...
Don't you know? Threatening the spellbook is foul play or so I've been told.
Personally, I find it no different than having a rust monster in the dungeon.
Me neither.
Which is why I don't use rust monsters.
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Trying to steal a wizard's spellbook every session would be foul play but if a thief snuck in and started stealing stuff he may pickup that fancy book if he's familiar with their value. Also, rust monsters don't live everywhere but you could throw in an encounter where there's an old cave dedicated to a god or goddess with signs of rust on metal statues or whatnot to forewarn players.
You should throw different challenges at players. Heck the rogue steals a spellbook, now you have a mission to hunt down and find the thief AND the spellbook. Or you may see your spellbook at a market, someone reading a book in a boat or wagon that looks familiar, or other things. Try to not punish the characters but challenge them and heck, use it to throw in a plot hook or a fun quest.
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I seem to remember that you can use a spellbook to cast a spell as if you were using a scroll, but I cannot find that in the rules. Doing so would destroy the page, and I don't know if you can use this technique to cast a spell with expensive components.You cannot do this. A scroll is an actual magic item - a spell competion magic item which is created specifically for the purpose of completing a spell with a few final words etc. A page from a spellbook is not a spell completion magic item - it is essentially just a complex, long form arcane recepie or instruction set on how a spell is to be prepared/memorized.
There might be various house rules and such floating around but this is not something you can officially do in the game
Aye, it must be a house rule.
the groups i played with, simply handed out found gear to who could best use it, and divided the rest. we never worried about things like what a spellbook was worth- it was another tool to keep us alive.
This how my various groups have handled this for years, going all the way back to 1st Edition. Magic Items go to whoever can get the best use out of them, any unclaimed Items get sold, and the proceeds plus the value of any coin, gems or jewelry get evenly divided among the PCs. This may not be strictly canon these days, but it has always worked for us.
As Diego says, casting directly from a spellbook (essentially treating it as a collection of bound scrolls) goes back to 1st Edition days as well. We used to call it "Combat Casting" in our group, and it definitely was a desperation tactic to be used only in extreme circumstances due to the difficulty and expense of acquiring or replacing spellbooks.
Nowadays spellbooks and (particularly) scrolls are much easier and cheaper to come by, and this is probably the part of the 3rd Edition/Pathfinder revision of the D&D magic system I am most pleased with. We would probably still allow Combat Casting from a spellbook if the circumstances demanded it, but so far that need hasn't happened.
Slap the "Quartermaster" upside the head and say "Yeah no, I think I'll pass on this b%&!#~!!, thanks."
He's just another player. His "orders" mean nothing to you. Make sure he realizes this, and he'll probably stop.