Can an Alchemist extract target an object?


Rules Questions


For example the spell Invisibility the target line says:
"Target you or a creature or object weighing no more than 100 lbs./level"

Alchemist extracts, "behave like spells in potion form", but can they be used as an oil to smear on an object?


I would say no, even if you made it into an infusion. Here's why:

Class feature - Alchemy wrote:
Although the alchemist doesn't actually cast spells, he does have a formulae list that determines what extracts he can create. An alchemist can utilize spell-trigger items if the spell appears on his formuale list, but not spell-completion items (unless he uses Use Magic Device to do so). An extract is “cast” by drinking it, as if imbibing a potion—the effects of an extract exactly duplicate the spell upon which its formula is based, save that the spell always affects only the drinking alchemist. An alchemist can draw and drink an extract as a standard action. The alchemist uses his level as the caster level to determine any effect based on caster level.

The infusion discovery doesn't alter this as far as I can tell. So unless the object is something like, say, a construct, who could be made to drink the extract, it can't essentially 'cast' the effect.

The Concordance

I am curious of the answer of the question.

When talking about Spell Full Pouch, FractalLaw quotes:

Advanced Player's Guide, page 27 wrote: wrote:
An extract is “cast” by drinking it, as if imbibing a potion—the effects of an extract exactly duplicate the spell upon which its formula is based, save that the spell always affects only the drinking alchemist.

So he states extract can not "cast" on object, only creatures.

Another friend insists Potion include Oil, so extract can be drink or smear.
If extract can't be oil form, putting Full Pouch in Alchemist is sort of probelm, cause it only affect on objects.


It’s sorta a repeat of the communal alchemist extracts… where table variation is to be expected… and while unlike communal spells, we don’t have any official word on how target object extracts are intended to work or if they are intended to function only as Wand/Scroll spells for the alchemist as well…

Two table variations I’ve seen are:
1) treat them as oils, allowing them to be “cast” on the object.
2) drink the extract to gain the ability to imbue a touched item.

Both variations have their ups and downs… such as the oils version sometimes allowing for spells that target creatures or objects to be used as potions or oils… or the touch version allowing the alchemist to “pre-cast” and hold the charge…

The Concordance

I found a respone by https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2t90h?Alchemist-extracts-that-cant-target-the# 1. He thought the spells which target is object in Alchemist list were errors. I'd like to go with his way.

The Exchange

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Here is a corrected link for that thread.

Mark goes on to say the error is that spells that target objects shouldn't be on the alchemist spell list at all. The fix isn't some method of having the extracts work on objects - it's not having them as extracts, period. If the spell can affect an object or a creature (like invisibility) then ignore the bit about targeting objects when it comes to extracts.

The Concordance

Belafon wrote:
Mark goes on to say the error is that spells that target objects shouldn't be on the alchemist spell list at all.

I can't agree more.

Liberty's Edge

Quote:

Brew Potion (Ex): At 1st level, alchemists receive Brew Potion as a bonus feat. An alchemist can brew potions of any formulae he knows (up to 3rd level), using his alchemist level as his caster level. The spell must be one that can be made into a potion. The alchemist does not need to meet

the prerequisites for this feat.
Quote:

Brew Potion (Item Creation)

You can create magic potions.
Prerequisite: Caster level 3rd.
Benefit: You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures or objects. Brewing a potion takes 2 hours if its base price is 250 gp or less, otherwise brewing a potion takes 1 day for each 1,000 gp in its base price. When you create a potion, you set the caster level, which must be sufficient to cast the spell in question and no higher than your own level.
To brew a potion, you must use up raw materials costing one half this base price. See the magic item creation rules in Chapter 15 for more information.
When you create a potion, you make any choices that you would normally make when casting the spell. Whoever drinks the potion is the target of the spell.
Quote:

Potions

A potion is a magic liquid that produces its effect when imbibed. Potions vary incredibly in appearance. Magic oils are similar to potions, except that oils are applied externally rather than imbibed. A potion or oil can be used only once. It can duplicate the effect of a spell of up to 3rd level that has a casting time of less than 1 minute and targets one or more creatures or objects. The price of a potion is equal to the level of the spell × the creator’s caster level × 50 gp. If the potion has a material component cost, it is added to the base price and cost to create.
Table 15–12 gives sample prices for potions created at the lowest possible caster level for each spellcasting class. Note that some spells appear at different levels for different casters. The level of such spells depends on the caster brewing the potion.
Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn’t get to make any decisions about the effect—the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).
The person applying an oil is the effective caster, but the object is the target.
Quote:

Creating Potions

The creator of a potion needs a level working surface and at least a few containers in which to mix liquids, as well as a source of heat to boil the brew. In addition, he needs ingredients. The costs for materials and ingredients are subsumed in the cost for brewing the potion: 25 gp × the level of the spell × the level of the caster.
All ingredients and materials used to brew a potion must be fresh and unused. The character must pay the full cost for brewing each potion. (Economies of scale do not apply.)
The imbiber of the potion is both the caster and the target. Spells with a range of personal cannot be made into potions.
The creator must have prepared the spell to be placed in the potion (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.

I have quote stuff that everyone writing here knows, but I think it is important repeating it.

If we remove all the extract that target objects, the alchemist's ability to create potions and oil is weakened, and Brew potion is already a weak crafting feat.
I am convinced that the alchemist shouldn't be able to use extracts on objects, but I am also convinced that the class is meant to be able to brew magical oils that target objects without the need to take further discoveries to learn them from the wizard list.
As having the spell/extract memorized is mandatory when making a potion, being able to prepare them is needed to make the oils.
It is not something that Paizo has done and a bit against their tendency to keep the bookeping part of the game as simple as possible, but the best solution in my eyes is to make a list of extracts that can be only made into magical oils and can't be used directly on the objects.

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