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Hi All,
This is not a specific rules question, rather I am looking for input as to whether I have a correct understanding of the rules before I create my character.
1. A Ranger that chooses Natural Weapon combat style does not have to take the Shape Shifter archetype?
2. A 1/2 Orc with Toothy + Aspect of the Beast (claws) would have 3 Primary natural attacks at level 2. These would all be made at full BAB and get full STR mod to damage.
At level 6, when most characters receive an iterative attack, the Natural Weapon character would not get the extra attack (unless they have some way to add additional natural attacks, or perform a Full-Attack sequence with a "manufactured weapon" and their natural attacks - in which case all of the natural attack forms become secondary and are made at BAB -5 and 1/2 STR mod to damage).
3. Said 1/2 Orc Ranger could select Aspect Of the Beast at any level (after 2nd) and would not have to meet the pre-requisites?
4. If a 1/2 Orc w/Toothy went the 2 weapon combat route, or Archery combat route and did not have additional natural attack forms, the bite attack would receive 1.5 x STR mod to damage, if it was the only attack made - such as in conjunction with a Charge, or as an AoO? Said character would always threaten adjacent with the bite attack?
Thanks for taking the time to read this. Please do comment if I am off the rails here.
Cheers,
D
**stuff**
1. Correct
2. Correct again
3. I don't believe so. It's a bonus feat, so i believe you would have to take it in place of a Ranger combat style feat.
4a. The bite attack would be at 1.5Xstr IF you did not make any other attacks that round, weapon or otherwise. If you make a weapon attack or unarmed strike, all natural attacks are treated as secondary attacks for that round.
4b. You would indeed always threaten adjacent squares with your bite attack.
4a. The bite attack would be at 1.5Xstr IF you did not make any other attacks that round, weapon or otherwise. If you make a weapon attack or unarmed strike, all natural attacks are treated as secondary attacks for that round.Uh, that's not how it works. You only get 1.5 STR if it is your only natural attack, not if it's the only natural attack you're attacking with.
So it is. I stand corrected. So many little fun caveats in these rules, aren't there?
Just to provide some advice for a few options for getting more natural attacks:
The helm of the mammoth lord is a popular option since it provides a 1d6 gore attack for 8,500 gp (which is a good price at around level 10, when 3 natural attacks start to lose steam for a full BAB class). There might be some debate over whether you can use you head for a bite and gore, but there are enough examples such as gargoyles to argue for it.
The wyvern cloak is another option, but it costs 78K, so save it for around level 15 or so. It provides a 1d6 sting attack (primary and it has poison). The item also has other effects such as constant feather fall, 1/day fly, and +4 to will saves, so it might be worth it?
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Okay,
So what's the deal with Multiattack? It appears it would only be useful if I picked up some secondary attacks along the way - or, would it apply if I used a weapon, thus making my primary attacks secondary?
Could the character in question do the following during a full-attack sequence at level 11;
1 handed/light "weapon" @ BAB +11/+6/+1 (+ STR mod damage)
And Claw @ BAB +9 (+ .5 STR mod)
And Bite @ BAB +9 (+ .5 STR mod)
If the light/1 handed weapon was an Unarmed Strike (kick), could the character still make a second Claw attack at +9 ?
Assuming this is how Multiattack works... For ease of reference here is Multiattack
Multiattack (Monster)
This creature is particularly skilled at making attacks with its natural weapons.
Prerequisite: Three or more natural attacks.
Benefit: The creature's secondary attacks with natural weapons take only a –2 penalty.
Normal: Without this feat, the creature's secondary attacks with natural weapons take a –5 penalty.
.
There is some argument about intent on how to mix natural attacks and weapons, and there have been designer comments that they do not like that you use unarmed strikes that are "conveniently on a different limb" from the claws.
But otherwise, yes, it looks correct.
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I'm not even sure I would go that route. What I really want to do is have a natural weapon Rogue so I don't have to stack TWF penalties on top of a 3/4 BAB. I just can't think of how to do it (using a Core race), so the idea I'm kicking around is natural weapon Ranger 2/Rogue x (or ninja x preferably).
So I guess my next question is; if a Ranger who has selected natural weapons as a combat style can select Aspect of the Beast with "regular feat slots" that you acquire when levelling up, can he still take that feat if the slot is gained when a new class is added to reach an odd level? (Ranger 2 / Rogue 1, 3rd level feat is Aspect of the Beast?)
He's still a Ranger with NW combat style so I don't see why not...
Oh, you just wanted a ton of attacks with decent BAB? Yeah, that actually seems like a good route. Just get the basic three attacks and grab the helm of the mammoth lord at mid levels and you should be good on the number of attacks through level 18 or so.
Really, even if you lag a bit in enhancements due to the price of an AoMF, you are probably still doing better than most rogues since all of your attacks will be at full BAB, rather than the iteratives and TWF penalties other rogues would have to deal with. Rogues with TWF typically only get 5 or 6 attacks at most, and most of those have terrible bonuses to hit. 4 primary natural attacks will serve you well.
And yes, you are still a ranger with the natural weapons style, so there shouldn't be too many problems. I am a bit curious about what you would pick as your 2nd level bonus feat though if you do not take aspect of the beast.
What I've seen :
Level Dip Monk (Free IUS)
Amulet of Mighty Fists
Two Claws + Bite (Tiefling, Tengu, Orc w Aspect of Beast, Catfolk with Adopted Trait and Toothy Orc Trait)
Multiattack
Let's say your Amulet is +3 Acidic and you have +11 BAB, and a 16 Strength and no other bonus to-hit feats
+17 Kick, +12 Kick, +7 Kick, +15 Bite, +15 Claw, +15 Claw, (+15 Gore with helmet)
Each of the attacks gain a +1d6 Acidic damage (that's +6d6 per round potential, +7d6 with helmet). It really maximizes the use of the amulet. One combination I've seen this with is 1 level dip martial art monk, and the rest Barbarian. This ups the to-hit and damage potential due to the strength bonus on to-hit and damage from rage.
Just to provide some advice for a few options for getting more natural attacks:
The helm of the mammoth lord is a popular option since it provides a 1d6 gore attack for 8,500 gp (which is a good price at around level 10, when 3 natural attacks start to lose steam for a full BAB class). There might be some debate over whether you can use you head for a bite and gore, but there are enough examples such as gargoyles to argue for it.
Just to correct you, here, but the Helm of the Mammoth Lord is not a natural attack. It does indeed give a gore, but it clearly states that the tusks are a part of the helm, and doesn't say anywhere that the gore attack is a natural one. Unless there's an Errata or FAQ I am unaware of, that makes it a manufactured weapon.
As far as gore and bite on the same limb, that's been clarified for some attacks, such as the Barbarian's gore gotten from Lesser Fiend Totem. The "one attack per limb" isn't the only natural attack rule. It also states that if you have "additional body parts capable of making the attack" (such as a sudden set of horns coming out of your head, per the Barbarian rage power), you can gore and bite just fine.
Okay,
So what's the deal with Multiattack? It appears it would only be useful if I picked up some secondary attacks along the way - or, would it apply if I used a weapon, thus making my primary attacks secondary?
Could the character in question do the following during a full-attack sequence at level 11;
1 handed/light "weapon" @ BAB +11/+6/+1 (+ STR mod damage)
And Claw @ BAB +9 (+ .5 STR mod)
And Bite @ BAB +9 (+ .5 STR mod)If the light/1 handed weapon was an Unarmed Strike (kick), could the character still make a second Claw attack at +9 ?
Assuming this is how Multiattack works... For ease of reference here is Multiattack
Multiattack (Monster)
This creature is particularly skilled at making attacks with its natural weapons.
Prerequisite: Three or more natural attacks.
Benefit: The creature's secondary attacks with natural weapons take only a –2 penalty.
Normal: Without this feat, the creature's secondary attacks with natural weapons take a –5 penalty.
Ok, your original post questions are all correct as printed. Just remember that if you use that bite in conjunction with unarmed strikes or manufactured weapons, it becomes secondary, you attack with it at BAB -5, and it only gets .5xSTR bonus. That bite is only 1.5XSTR if it's the only natural weapon you possess (not just the only one you use).
Now, Multiattack. This requires 3 or more natural attacks as a prerequisite. Your Ranger with Claw/Claw/Bite meets the criteria.
Multiattack is the natural weapon replacement for Two-Weapon Fighting. If you combine your natural attacks with manufactured weapons or unarmed strikes, all of your natural attacks become secondary, and are made at BAB -5. Multiattack reduces this penalty to BAB -2.
Just to correct you, here, but the Helm of the Mammoth Lord is not a natural attack. It does indeed give a gore, but it clearly states that the tusks are a part of the helm, and doesn't say anywhere that the gore attack is a natural one. Unless there's an Errata or FAQ I am unaware of, that makes it a manufactured weapon.
Gore is a natural attack. There is no 'manufactured natural attack' in the rules. A manufactured weapon is a weapon. That is, it must appear on the weapon table. Gore does not appear on the weapon table.
This hide helm is set with plates of ivory carved with primitive runes, with a pair of tusks curving down on either side of the wearer's face for cheek guards. The tusks of the helm provide a gore attack dealing 1d6 points of damage for a Medium wearers (or 1d4 points of damage for Small wearers) and counts as a magic weapon for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction....
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Cost 4,250 gp
Craft Wondrous Item, beast shape I, ...
Providing a gore attack means it's providing a gore attack, which is a natural attack. Note the requirement of beast shape I to make the item, which is what provides the natural attack.
In no way shape or form is this a 'manufactured weapon attack'. It's a wondrous item that provides a natural attack in the form of a Gore.
It could be my misinterpretation of how the item works, and you're right, gore attacks are always natural and not manufactured, but here's my issue:
If this helmet turned your head into an Elephant's head to make the attack (Which would be awesomely cool, but that's not what happens), then I would agree with you.
The justification for my opinion is simple. By nature, it's a "manufactured" weapon because it was constructed using a helmet and a set of magically grown elephant's tusks. So, perhaps that's the very reason it's a wonderous item. It's a manufactured weapon that emulates a natural attack form.
If I rip the talon off of a dead Dinonychus and attack with it, do I suddenly have natural weapons in the form of a talon? Or am I using it as an improvised dagger?
Claw Razors (See Catfolk in the ARG) specifically say they turn a natural attack into a manufactured weapon. The Helm doesn't say it's a manufactured attack. That argues that it's not considered a manufactured attack.
On top of that, the helmet would honestly be useless as an item if it was considered a manufactured weapon, as it would not be usable with your other attacks.
Now, as to your talon question, the talon ceases to be a talon when you take it off the animal, so yes, it's an improvised weapon. However, let me ask you this. If you took a giant scorpion tail off a scorpion, and then mounted it on a harness and enchanted it to allow the wearer to use it as a natural attack, would you consider it a manufactured as well? How about a magic item that granted you the aspect of the beast (claws) feat? Would those claws be manufactured weapons because they are granted by an item? What if the item were gloves?
It's much less confusing if you just treat things as what they are (natural attacks are natural attacks) unless the specifics of the item (like the claw razors) specify they are not. As the saying goes, specific trumps general. General rule is, a gore is a natural attack. Unless the specific overrides it (and the helm doesn't) then it's a natural attack.
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I am a bit curious about what you would pick as your 2nd level bonus feat though if you do not take aspect of the beast.
I was thinking of using it for one of the two options I couldn't qualify for otherwise on account of the pre-requisites (Imp. Natural Weapon or Rending Claws).
Improved Natural Attack could boost my bite attack right away, while Rending Claws would be wasted until I had claws... Even then I don't know if the potential of an extra d6 damage is better than improving the bite attack (damage wise it's better, but it's more situational/less reliable).
I'm hoping to actually put pen to paper and build this guy up tonight.
Anyone know any Character Traits off hand that would be good for a Natural Weapon character? Reactionary and a boost to my weakest save are generally my go to - unless there is something better for a specific build (like River Rat for a Knife fighter)...
Dirty Fighter is always a good trait for natural weapon fighters. Potentially 3 pts of extra damage per turn if you do a full attack while flanking, and, on top of that, it's a trait bonus, so it multiplies on criticals.
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Okay two more questions - I have a kind of goofy "night crawler" type guy built out to 12th level, and I want to clarify a few points to make sure he's legal for Society Play (if I ever decide to use him there);
1). Monster Feats: The Natural Weapon Ranger has some Monster Feats on his bonus feat list (Improved Natural Attack & Multiattack specifically). Presuming I meet all of the feats pre-requisites can I select these feats with "regular" feat slots, or are they limited to Ranger Bonus feat slots on account that they are Monster Feats? Aspect of the Beast has a "special" caveat that specifically calls out that a Ranger can select it with regular feat slots, ignoring pre-reqs (but it's not a Monster Feat so I have no idea if this is even relevant to my question).
2). Dragon Style/Dragon Ferocity: does the bonus to damage stack with each other? Would the first unarmed strike have a total bonus of 2x STR mod? (I assume this has been asked/answered before so I will google it, but thought I'd ask it herein the event any one reading knows the answer).
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Never mind #2 above, found the answer regarding Dragon Style/Ferocity.
Still have questions about Monster Feats in PFS games. The additional resources lists them as off-limits to PC's unless you get them from a legal Source other than the CRB.
Since Natural Weapon Style appeared in either the APG or UC, I don't know what this means. As far as I can tell those books just refer back to CRB when referring to Monster Feats...