Just my opinion, but I feel I must say this


Pathfinder Society

Dark Archive 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Midwest

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The level of negativity on the boards since the new guide was released has me quite concerned.

I have seen posts where every little word is nitpicked to try and break the meaning of its common sense intent. I have seen posts complaining about the PP cost of general retraining, ignoring the fact that in 5 seasons it has never been allowed before. There are posts complaining about the new inventory sheet, which was added to help both players and GMs keep track of their stuff in a more organized way.

About a year ago when some new material came out and a certain archetype wasn't allowed, people became very passionate and negative about it until Mike finally just gave in and allowed it. He revealed at that time that he was planning on it being a chronicle sheet boon(and a VERY cool one, I might add).

People, the new rules haven't even had a chance to be USED! If you keep up with the nitpicking, negativity and asking for more more more, I can almost guarantee that this is the last set of 'new rules' that will ever be attempted.

I sorely miss the way the boards used to be back in Seasons 0-1. Back then people were a lot more positive and polite, digging through the rules together and being helpful. Now it seems every other post is written by an 'Internet Tough Guy' who has his opinion on the rules and won't brook any criticism (positive or negative) about it.

And what's almost worse is that I see this negativity growing from the Old Guard as well as the people who have joined the boards in the past few years.

Here is how the past few days should have gone:
Mike and John: Hey players, here is a new updated guide with completely new features we are going to be testing to see how they work in Organized Play.
Players: These look interesting. I don't necessarily agree with everything personally but let's give it a shot and see how it works out. I'm sure if some of them become more of a hindrance or overpowering you will look at them again, right?
Mike and John: Of course, we are always striving to make this the strongest Organized Play Campaign that we can.

Respect how busy the Paizo PFS worker bees are right now, a week out from GenCon. They are trying to create the same quality scenarios in a very short amount of time AND trying to get them out in time for GMs to be well prepared to run them. Criticizing the Guide right now takes their time away from this, and I know that if a rule is seriously broken, it will NOT ruin the Campaign between now and when GenCon is over.

When you post on a thread, pretend as if the person you are responding to is right there next to you, face-to-face with a squirt gun pointed at your face. That may engender more polite responses from everyone.

Finally, before you reply to break down what I said sentence by sentence to prove me wrong and how much smarter you are than I, know that you are part of the precipitate, not the solution.


OTOH, that feedback, including some of the nitpicking and breaking it down sentence by sentence has already led to some needed clarification. Better that it happen now, before the official release when things can still be easily tweaked than after when it would probably wind up waiting until the next version.

That doesn't mean people shouldn't work on tone though. :)

And favorited just for the old "if you're not part of the solution" joke. I've loved that one since high school chem lab.

Liberty's Edge

Thank you Todd for that viewpoint.

Personally Im not a fan of rebuilding at all but thats just my own viewpoint. Sadly I only go into society in August of last year so I have missed all the early season discussion.


Todd Morgan wrote:
Stuff

You're wrong.

Dark Archive 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Midwest

Matthew, from the tone of your previous posts that I have witnessed, I think you would have fit in just fine with the way things used to be. I too, am not a fan of rebuilding but you know what? I'm going to see what happens this season with it. If it becomes disruptive to gaming at my tables, you can bet I am going to get polite and passionate about re-banning it with the powers that be.

And thejeff, do you think that the much needed clarification was so important that it couldn't have waited until after GenCon?

Dark Archive 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Midwest

Kyle Baird wrote:
Todd Morgan wrote:
Stuff
You're wrong.

Entirely possible, but as I'm not the type that picks fights with former police officers whilst inebriated*, I'm pretty sure my common sense approach to things is spot on :)

*I only bring out the Purple Worm whilst inebriated

Liberty's Edge 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville aka thaX

Nice, Kyle.

I do think the Out of Tier gold solution is a fair one. It is closer to my halfsies plan, without the complicated math.

See, that is positive, right?


Todd Morgan wrote:
. And thejeff, do you think that the much needed clarification was so important that it couldn't have waited until after GenCon?

Given that the Guide goes into effect and thus becomes harder to change at GenCon, I'd say any feedback and changes that can get done before then are a good thing.

Dark Archive 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Midwest

Granted, but to me if its a choice between going over the 4 scenarios that are released at GenCon one more time to look for errors during development vs clarifying a few things in the Guide, I'd err on the scenarios every time.

Shadow Lodge

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Todd Morgan wrote:
And thejeff, do you think that the much needed clarification was so important that it couldn't have waited until after GenCon?

Well, I'm not the guy you were asking, but I feel the need to answer, anyways.

Yes, it was important enough that it couldn't wait until after GenCon. Have you seen the mess that the "Adapting Seasons 0-4" section is? I still can't tell the official way to handle faction missions from those seasons, using only the written rules.

In the words of Mr. Brock:

This is one of the key reasons we release it 10 days before the season starts. It allows us to rework anything that needs to be reworked before the season starts.

The new version of the Guide was released early to get this kind of feedback, so the feedback is entirely justified.

Dark Archive 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Midwest

And we have precipitate!

Faction missions are going the way of the dodo, therefore you don't use them unless you want to add flavor to the scenario. As written in the Guide, if they complete the overall mission as explained by the VC, they get a second Prestige.


The complainers stick out. I think you are under the Observer-expectancy effect. You see these sticking out more than everything else.

I think it is just as it has always been.

Although mike brock did delete my vote for paizo with dollars post.

Shadow Lodge

Todd Morgan wrote:
And we have precipitate!

Wow, you say you think people breaking apart the new Guide to point out problems is a bad thing, and I point out the campaign coordinator himself stating that it's what they wanted, and you respond by calling me part of the problem?

Perhaps you should reexamine your point, and how you conduct yourself in public.


4 years ago the boards were definitely less hostile, but there are many reasons for that.

Best we can do now is try to be as civil and constructive as possible and ignore those who can't.

Dark Archive 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Midwest

Wow, pot calling kettle black...

I never said it was a bad thing, I was posting about the negativity on the boards and about respecting what the Paizo PFS guys have been doing and how it appears people are reacting. By doing the exact thing I asked people not to do, you continue to prove my point. Continue to respond all you like but unless it is polite, I probably won't respond back.


Gah quit looking fpor petty things to fight about.

SCPRedMage wrote:
Perhaps you should reexamine your point, and how you conduct yourself in public.

This did not need to be said.

Nor did this

Todd Morgan wrote:
Wow, pot calling kettle black...

Take a few second before you post. I know I say obscene things so I am not perfect either.

Dark Archive 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Midwest

I'm really not trying to argue, that was not the intent of my thread at all, Finlander, but I do feel that I have a right to publicly defend myself when I'm called out publicly. Like I said previously, I'm leaving it at that post and not going further because I don't want it to get obscene....but then the Paizo filters would prevent that anyway.

But thanks for the post and for doing what you can to mediate. It is appreciated :)


I do not expect you to reply Mr Morgan, but I know you are a both good people. I troll this board ALOT, and i know it hard not to defend yourself. I do it, but sometimes coming back with a straight logical answer that has no intention to be definisve is a better approach.

It makes them look like a jerk if you apologize and explain.

Again if you look you can find things where I rage posted worse than these. So by no means am I perfect.

Dark Archive 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Midwest

Hah, Mr Morgan is my father, I'm just plain old Lord of the Universe Todd


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Todd Morgan wrote:
Hah, Mr Morgan is my father, I'm just plain old Lord of the Universe Todd

Universe Man, Universe Man... My money's on Particle Man.

Sovereign Court

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While I agree there has been a fair amount or grar in the posts re: 5.0, there was a call for feedback. Could folks have been more constructive in the way they turned a phrase? Of course. Unfortunately, the relative anonymity allowed via forum posts leads to this type of situation (anyone who has worked in both phone based and in person customer service can tell you all about the difference in the way folks act in person vs. detached contact).

The best solution is to lead by example. I freely admit I have taken the bait in some threads, as has pretty much everyone who has ever posted. But restraint whenever possible is the best way to overcome a wave of negativity. "Kill them with kindness" is not a cliche for no reason.


ehh anonymity...

You play with lots of these people. I know Mr. Baird. I know the furious kender.

So you get out there.

Shadow Lodge

I really don't think it's as much of an issue as you're making it out to be. Paizo wants feedback, and people are just passing on constructive criticism.

The exchange over how things should have gone that you've presented seems incredibly idealistic. The fact that they're getting emotional about it is actually a good thing - they're invested.

There could have been an uproar, but what's there now isn't one and I can see a lot of good advice Paizo can take on board, and I'm pretty confident that's how they see it.

The level of feedback they're getting - even the nitpicks (there's not really that many, c'mon) - is encouraging.

Shadow Lodge

I really, really shouldn't respond to someone who is dead set on being being a jerk without any real provocation, but...

Todd Morgan wrote:

Wow, pot calling kettle black...

I never said it was a bad thing, I was posting about the negativity on the boards and about respecting what the Paizo PFS guys have been doing and how it appears people are reacting. By doing the exact thing I asked people not to do, you continue to prove my point. Continue to respond all you like but unless it is polite, I probably won't respond back.

Okay, first of all, reexamine your first post. What you put forth as the "appropriate" response was to just sit back and not give any actual feedback about anything that could use clarification in the new Guide. All I attempted to do was, without any attempt to be snide or "prove I'm smarter than you" or whatever, was point out that the feedback was requested.

The appropriate response to a request for feedback is not silence.

As to the example I used, can you honestly look at that section, and, without any information gleaned from anywhere except the current version of that document, and without having to guess as to intention, answer this one question: in a season zero, three, or four scenario, how much prestige is the scenario goal worth?

From what I've gathered from posts on the messageboards, which seems to come from earlier draft versions of the Guide and guesswork, the overall scenario goal is supposed to be worth two prestige for all scenarios from seasons zero through four, but the only place it says this in the current version is in a section labelled as only applying to seasons one and two. There is nothing in the document itself that clearly states this for seasons zero, three, and four, and thus it desperately needs to be clarified, and isn't something that should sit as-is for however many months it takes for Paizo to release v5.1.

And by "doing the exact thing (you) asked people not to do", you mean what, pick out and respond to the one part of the post where you actually asked a bloody question that wasn't rhetorical? Yeah, see, here's the thing: when I reply to something, I edit it down to what I'm responding to for clarity, not to be a nit-picky jerk.

Perhaps the problem here is that you're seeing a bunch of posts with people pointing out where the new Guide is unclear, or pointing out something they don't like (which I myself have done, after several posts pointing out things I thought were great), and, thanks to the magic of plain text mediums, attributed excessive negativity where it wasn't intended.

I, for one, did not originally post in this thread with any negativity in mind. But when the first thing that happens when I post is a Venture Captain acting like I personally went out to kidnap Mike Brock's kittens and tie them to railroad tracks, yeah, I get a little offended. I would never do that.

I don't have the mustache for it.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

Happens every time. Its like getting smacked with a hurricane when you live in Florida. Just bend with the wind like the majestic palm, and you'll be fine.

Dark Archive 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Midwest

Now THAT is a post I can respond to! Thanks for the polite tone. I definitely don't advocate blindly drinking the Kool Aid, but I do want to remind people that there are four scenarios that would normally be posted at the end of Aug/Sept respectively and get them all in the middle of August PLUS a Special PLUS Bonekeep Part 2. That is what John is currently doing. Mike is organizing HQ and putting together the entire show of 2000+ tables of PFS.

Do you ever get on a roll with your work to have it interrupted every now and again for something else that is minor compared to what you are currently doing? I have and it is what I feel people have been doing as of late.

I cannot say for sure when a new version of a Guide is going to be, but Mike has stated he is going to be reviewing things right after GenCon. Maybe it will take 6 months, maybe 6 weeks or maybe 6 days after GenCon a new Guide will come out.

Now to answer your question about Prestige, I agree it isn't clear. I would adjudicate that all scenarios before Season 5 grant 2 prestige in lieu of doing faction missions. I could be wrong and they intended something different. But the impact of getting that wrong is minor vs a wrong stat block on a S5 scenario or a weird muster sheet from HQ.

Take a look back at some of the threads regarding the hinted changes in the Guide and the threads regarding those topics after it came out. Quite a few are just plain rants, which doesn't help anything.

Again, I want to reiterate, I'm not advocating "Don't criticize" I'm advocating "Wait to politely and constructively criticize until they are finished with their largest PFS convention to date." And I'm also saying, don't be a jerk on the forums, in general.

Shadow Lodge

Yeah... see, that first post of mine was intended to be polite. The second one wasn't, because I was offended.

Which was kind of my point there, at the end: text-only mediums make it hard to get the intended tone across.

And I feel I should point out that Mr. Brock has stated that they intend to clean up what needs to be cleaned up and re-release the new version on the 14th, meaning that waiting until after GenCon to give constructive feedback defeats the point.

Now, as to all the highly critical posts leading up to the release of the new Guide on Monday (ie, all that stuff posted before people had a chance to actually see what exactly was in it), yeah, that was way more negativity than was needed.

Personally, during all of that I tried to convey that I was concerned about the change to the wealth system, but that I was also reserving my judgement of the new system until I actually say it; I was trying to convey my sense of nervousness, not negativity, which it apparently seemed like to at least one forum-goer (the identity of which I've already forgotten, thanks to my crappy memory).


See i knew you were both great guys, and were misunderstanding each other.

Scarab Sages

I am excited about the change.

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Gygaxx wrote:
I am excited about the change.

Me, too.

I'm excited about all of them. I'm excited to see what happens, and whether it has any impact on the viewpoints that I so often see. And lest you forget, I have been a vocal criticizer of any advocate for replay for years. But I am willing to see what happens with the star reward replay system. I have been a proponent of the more involved faction system that was in evidence during seasons 0 through 2, but I am excited to see what this new change in faction missions brings about. I was an advocate of simply leaving sub-tiers and wealth rewards alone, but I love what I've read so far.

More than anything, I'm thrilled to see that Mike, John and Mark continue to try to raise the bar despite what I think. I can't wait to see what happens during season 5. And I get the feeling there is still more to come. I'm on pins and needles with the anticipation. (-:

2/5

Disclaimer: I didn't read all of the recent threads, I'm too busy making $$$.

I'm excited about the changes. It looks like they listened to the feedback from fans, made adjustments and did everything right.

That doesn't mean there can't be adjustments.

I think it's better that fans are concerned and excited about changes rather than apathetic. It shows they care. But yes, no one likes whiny gamers.

In the long run, I think the fans will be really pleased with the changes in PFS.


Well, retraining is pretty exciting, until you see how much retraining actually costs.

Someone I know is a level 10 inquisitor. He picked a 4th level spell he isn't actually happy with, but now he can retrain it!

Under regular rules it is 800g and 8 days to retrain, but under pfs rules it is 800g AND 8 PP, which is minimum 1.1, and potentially 2 levels of scenarios. As a gold cost, pp is roughly worth 375g per point, which means the cost of retraining this spell in pfs is 3800 gold!

475% increase is a lot of increase imo. Functionally, retraining wont affect me at all, since I play out my characters and I enjoy doing so. It makes me sad that some local players will be choosing between a raise dead and fixing their poor feat choices so that they are decently effective

Venture-Agent, Canada—Ontario—Ottawa aka Mistwalker

CWheezy wrote:
Well, retraining is pretty exciting, until you see how much retraining actually costs.

Mike has said that they have put the cost high to be able to evaluate how it will impact the game. If there is no adverse impact, they may lower the costs.

I believe that part of the rationale for that is that it is easier to lower the cost later, than to raise it - less complaints by everyone.

The Exchange

Feedback is great, but nitpicking every single word is a waste of the Campaign Coordinator's time and takes away from precious development of pressing issues facing the campaign (like GenCon). Sorry, but Mike does not need to spell out every little detail for every little corner case we can theoretically dream up.

Folks just need to take some responsibility for playing this game and a select few need remedial classes in reading comprehension.


Thanks Todd!

On with the nitpicking

Todd Morgan wrote:
...know that you are part of the precipitate, not the solution.

I approve this pun.

Venture-Agent, Canada—Ontario—Ottawa aka Mistwalker

Joseph Caubo wrote:

Feedback is great, but nitpicking every single word is a waste of the Campaign Coordinator's time and takes away from precious development of pressing issues facing the campaign (like GenCon). Sorry, but Mike does not need to spell out every little detail for every little corner case we can theoretically dream up.

Folks just need to take some responsibility for playing this game and a select few need remedial classes in reading comprehension.

I respectfully disagree.

Mike has already made several changes to the document - based on his comments and the update(s) in the FAQ.

As indicated elsewhere, Mike has stated that he is putting out the new rules before the season starts to get feedback on the rules and wording. That feedback allows his to ensure that the final product says what he means to say. And, I have to assume that since this isn't the first time that he had done this, that he built time into his pre-GenCon schedule to allow for the feedback.

Example: I have not seen in the 5.0 version anything that says that the inventory tracking sheet is mandatory. Mike has created a FAQ to state that it is mandatory. Then folks asked if it was retroactive, that you had to fill it out for all existing characters or if was only to be applied from 15aug2013 and on. Mike clarified that it was only for games going forward, that it wasn't required for pre-15aug2013 scenarios and chronicles.

As for the smaller nit-picks, they too can be important. A single misplaced or forgotten comma can cause a large change in the phrase:
Let's eat, Grandpa.
Let's eat Grandpa.

The Exchange

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Just because Mike intended to get feedback does not mean it did not get out of hand. It did quite the opposite, and very few needed clarifications came from the feedback.

If you look at the FAQ, look at the number of one word responses to the questions listed because folks decided to be nitpicky. All it does is create clutter and wastes time just because a select few of our number fail at reading comprehension.

/We do not need to cater to the lowest common denominator.

Venture-Agent, Canada—Ontario—Ottawa aka Mistwalker

Joseph Caubo wrote:

Just because Mike intended to get feedback does not mean it did not get out of hand. It did quite the opposite, and very few needed clarifications came from the feedback.

If you look at the FAQ, look at the number of one word responses to the questions listed because folks decided to be nitpicky. All it does is create clutter and wastes time just because a select few of our number fail at reading comprehension.

/We do not need to cater to the lowest common denominator.

If a lot of FAQ entries are required, even if they have one word answers, then to me that indicates that the wording of the document needs to be cleared up a bit, both for the players and the GMs. This will help ensure that the rules are applied consistently and in the same manner everywhere.

Was all of the feedback pertinent? no. Was some of it vitriol? yes. But this is the internet, you will never have only pertinent feedback.

The Exchange

If you followed the link and read them, it is obvious a lot of them are not necessary and the result of a few members of our Society that lack reading comprehension skills.

Venture-Agent, Canada—Ontario—Ottawa aka Mistwalker

I did follow the link and read them.

I attributed the questions more to people wanting to make sure that they understood what they were supposed to do, so that they were indeed following the rules, than to a lack of reading comprehension. Also, I do not believe that all of the new FAQs are directly related to the feedback on the new guide.

Also, not everyone's first language is English. Mine isn't even if I work in it a lot. That too many add to your perception of a lack of reading comprehension.

The Exchange

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

As has been mentioned, GenCon is a huge event and the new guide goes live at the start of the event.
Surely it is better that any issues with the new guide be queried etc. in one place (This forum) before the event starts than at multiple tables over multiple slots?

Back before any "Organised Play" or "Living" games when TSR used to run GenCon and GenCon Europe I used to be a volunteer DM for events such as the D&D Open & D&D Team events for GenCon Europe. TSR would send out the scenarios in advance of the event for the DMs to read/playtest/discect and then they would arrange for "DM meets" ahead of the Con so that we could sit down and discuss any issues we had, share thoughts and pre-empt any problems. Had these "DM meets" not taken place then we would have had a complete nightmare whilst running the scenarios and the players experience would have been poorer. Even then something that hadn't been covered would always crop up.

These days we have the advantage of internet forums. You no-longer have to rely upon small closed groups to proof read new material of such importance. The more proof readers you have, the more chance you have of picking up any issues before "go live" and the less chance of something cropping up that hasn't been covered - thereby improving the gaming experience for all of those tables at GenCon this year and the events that follow.

You shouldn't didmiss someone's post provided it it on-topic just beacuse of poor literary eloquence.

5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Illinois—Chicago aka thunderspirit

Lab_Rat wrote:
Todd Morgan wrote:
...know that you are part of the precipitate, not the solution.
I approve this pun.

I approve of Lab_Rat's approval.

Digital Products Assistant

Locking for now. The Paizo Staff do appreciate feedback, however, I'm not sure this won't turn into sniping back and forth at the moment. Let's try to be civil to one another please :)

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