Cheesy? Maybe...but....is it legal?


Rules Questions

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If I want to make a solely martial Dragon Disciple, could I do it via the following (given the new FAQ for SLA qualifying for PrCs) and be legal for all the abilities?

Main question is, is the ability to cast Daylight once per day enough to qualify as "Spontaneously casting Arcane Spells" (since it's on the Bard spell list) to qualify for Dragon Disciple?

If it's argued that it's a "mostly divine" spell, this build would be able to use Scaled Disciple (Kobold) as a feat tax to get around that, right?

For clarity, here is the core concept:

Race: Aasimar

Class: Ranger (Natural Weapon Style, possibly Shapeshifter Archetype)

Race/Social Traits: Adopted, Tusked

Racial Traits: Scion of Humanity, Spell-Like Ability (Daylight 1/day)

Feats: Racial Heritage (Kobold), Tail Terror (Kobold), Aspect of the Beast (Claws), Angelic Blood (Aasimar), Angelic Flesh: Steel (Aasimar), Metallic Wings (Aasimar), Eldritch Claws, Improved Natural Weapon (Claws), Multiattack

I think that you get the idea. He'd be a Steel Dragon Disciple coming from the Ranger class, using claw/claw/bite/tail/wing/wing (classic dragon full-attack setup) with breath weapon special attack (just like your classic dragon).

His claws would be magic, cold iron, and silver for DR bypass. That covers enough bases to get by for now.

If it's RAW legal and/or DM approved, other than people's dislike of Natural Weapons, is there anything I missed or anything I can add in to make this a viable progression from at least 1-18 possibly 20 for an Adventure Path?


Hmm, it specifically says "Spontaneously cast 1st level Arcane Spells". I may have to find a race that has one as a SLA since Daylight is a 3rd level spell...


FYI: Gnome with the Fell Magic alternate racial trait gets Chill Touch (Arcane 1) as a spell-like ability.


Barry Armstrong wrote:
Hmm, it specifically says "Spontaneously cast 1st level Arcane Spells". I may have to find a race that has one as a SLA since Daylight is a 3rd level spell...

I don't think any SLA counts as a 'spontaneous' casting; I believe spontaneous casting is limited to the specific language of Bards, Sorcerers, and Oracles.


you're gonna need a race with an SLA what is a 1st level arcane spell.

as far as spontanious goes, all SLA's qualify for this


Shimesen wrote:
as far as spontanious goes, all SLA's qualify for this

What are you basing this on?


Whale_Cancer wrote:
Barry Armstrong wrote:
Hmm, it specifically says "Spontaneously cast 1st level Arcane Spells". I may have to find a race that has one as a SLA since Daylight is a 3rd level spell...
I don't think any SLA counts as a 'spontaneous' casting; I believe spontaneous casting is limited to the specific language of Bards, Sorcerers, and Oracles.

And Inquisitors. This is what I was wondering as far as the prerequisite and the FAQ for SLA qualification is concerned. I don't believe it specifies.

As far as some of the other races are concerned, I think this would only work with Aasimar because of the "Scion of Humanity" and "Racial Heritage" combination. Unless some of the half-breed races have SLA's?


PRD, Special Abilities, Spell-like Abilities wrote:
Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.

Found this in the CRB. A PC is not a monster, per-se, nor is a celestial (Aasimar), but note that the Bard class IS on that list. Just for unwritten rule vs. precedent's sake.

Liberty's Edge

Barry Armstrong wrote:
Whale_Cancer wrote:
Barry Armstrong wrote:
Hmm, it specifically says "Spontaneously cast 1st level Arcane Spells". I may have to find a race that has one as a SLA since Daylight is a 3rd level spell...
I don't think any SLA counts as a 'spontaneous' casting; I believe spontaneous casting is limited to the specific language of Bards, Sorcerers, and Oracles.

And Inquisitors. This is what I was wondering as far as the prerequisite and the FAQ for SLA qualification is concerned. I don't believe it specifies.

As far as some of the other races are concerned, I think this would only work with Aasimar because of the "Scion of Humanity" and "Racial Heritage" combination. Unless some of the half-breed races have SLA's?

Half-elf can swap out adaptability and multitalented for some racial SLAs, one of which is darkness (2nd level arcane SLA).

Liberty's Edge

Barry Armstrong wrote:
PRD, Special Abilities, Spell-like Abilities wrote:
Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order.
Found this in the CRB. A PC is not a monster, per-se, nor is a celestial (Aasimar), but note that the Bard class IS on that list. Just for unwritten rule vs. precedent's sake.

There is a FAQ that notes that this rule applies to both PCs and monsters.

FAQ wrote:

Spell-Like Abilities: How do I know whether a spell-like ability is arcane or divine?

The universal monster rules for spell-like abilities states: "Some spell-like abilities duplicate spells that work differently when cast by characters of different classes. A monster's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order."

The same rule should apply for all creatures with spell-like abilities, including PC races: the creature's spell-like abilities are presumed to be the sorcerer/wizard versions. If the spell in question is not a sorcerer/wizard spell, then default to cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger, in that order. Use the spell type (arcane or divine) of that class to determine whether the spell-like ability is arcane or divine.

Edit 7/15/13: Wording changed match the precedent in the universal monster rules for spell-like abilities.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 07/09/13


Thanks, StabbityDoom! So that rule applies to PC races as well.


This seems odd to me. You're looking for a loophole that would allow you to make a Dragon Disciple that's worse than usual (since he would be giving up the ability to cast arcane spells)? That's not cheesy, just weird.

Personally, I'd just take a level of bard, but whatever floats your boat.


well i WAS gonna quote that faq...but stabbityboom beat me to it, so yeah...thats where i was basing my point.

and yes, some of the halfbreed races do have SLA's as racial traits, but i'm unsure if any of them are 1st lvl spells.


Shimesen wrote:

well i WAS gonna quote that faq...but stabbityboom beat me to it, so yeah...thats where i was basing my point.

and yes, some of the halfbreed races do have SLA's as racial traits, but i'm unsure if any of them are 1st lvl spells.

Ok, treat me like a child (Edit: I am not saying you are treating me like a child; I mean, explain to me as if I were a child because I don't get it). Where in that FAQ does it say SLAs should be considered spontaneously cast?


It doesn't, Whale Cancer. That's my main question about the prerequisite, and that's not actually the FAQ that allows SLAs to qualify for ability, class, and feat prerequisites.

That one's simply to determine the nature of the SLA, whether it's arcane or divine, for purposes of spells such as Daylight, that appear on both Arcane and Divine spell lists.

Liberty's Edge

Whale_Cancer wrote:
Shimesen wrote:

well i WAS gonna quote that faq...but stabbityboom beat me to it, so yeah...thats where i was basing my point.

and yes, some of the halfbreed races do have SLA's as racial traits, but i'm unsure if any of them are 1st lvl spells.

Ok, treat me like a child (Edit: I am not saying you are treating me like a child; I mean, explain to me as if I were a child because I don't get it). Where in that FAQ does it say SLAs should be considered spontaneously cast?

They aren't, but that's not what the pre-requisite for dragon disciple requests. The pre-requiste requests that they can "cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation". If you have an SLA of a 1st level arcane spell, then you can cast a 1st level arcane spell without preparation. Ergo, you qualify.

Rules-wise it's definitely weird, but since it doesn't throw the balance out anywhere (that I've been able to find) I've decided that I'm personally fine with it.


The FAQ's dont say anything about spontaneous or not- they just say that SLA's count as "being able to cast". The prepared vs spontaneous distinction isn't stated or implied.

-S


hogarth wrote:

This seems odd to me. You're looking for a loophole that would allow you to make a Dragon Disciple that's worse than usual (since he would be giving up the ability to cast arcane spells)? That's not cheesy, just weird.

Personally, I'd just take a level of bard, but whatever floats your boat.

Yeah, that's one of my options, as is Sorcerer, Inquisitor, or Oracle (Sorcerer being the obvious choice for stacking with the bloodline powers).

The main thing was losing as little BAB as possible prior to the PrC, but it really does seem like taking a single level dip in Sorcerer is going to help out.

I think the tradeoff for 1 BAB and a few hit points is probably worth it in the long run for "free" spell progression and boosted bloodline abilities later on. Especially since this would be a full 16-18 level build for an Adventure Path.


Barry Armstrong wrote:

It doesn't, Whale Cancer. That's my main question about the prerequisite, and that's not actually the FAQ that allows SLAs to qualify for ability, class, and feat prerequisites.

That one's simply to determine the nature of the SLA, whether it's arcane or divine, for purposes of spells such as Daylight, that appear on both Arcane and Divine spell lists.

I understand that, but my concern is that those SLAs don't count as being spontaneously cast (thus you wouldn't qualify for "Spontaneously casting Arcane Spells"). Shimesen asserted that "as far as spontanious goes, all SLA's qualify for this"; this does not seem right to me. His post seams to be responding to my question to him/her, but I don't see how it relates to the question I asked.

Even if you could cast a bard spell as a SLA, it does not mean that you cast it or can cast it spontaneously. For instance, a paladin is a prepared caster. A paladin could take unsanctioned knowledge to get a bard only spell. That spell would still be cast as a prepared spell. The ability to cast spontaneously is (under my understanding) an element of a class feature, rather than of spells or spell lists.

I'm not really vested in this point of minutia, other than an academic interest on where the RAW would come down on this.


Whale_Cancer wrote:

I understand that, but my concern is that those SLAs don't count as being spontaneously cast (thus you wouldn't qualify for "Spontaneously casting Arcane Spells"). Shimesen asserted that "as far as spontanious goes, all SLA's qualify for this"; this does not seem right to me. His post seams to be responding to my question to him/her, but I don't see how it relates to the question I asked.

Even if you could cast a bard spell as a SLA, it does not mean that you cast it or can cast it spontaneously. For instance, a paladin is a prepared caster. A paladin could take unsanctioned knowledge to get a bard only spell. That spell would still be cast as a prepared spell. The ability to cast spontaneously is (under my understanding) an element of a class feature, rather than of spells or spell lists.

I'm not really vested in this point of minutia, other than an academic interest on where the RAW would come down on this.

The rules don't say either way HOW the spell is cast. Just that the spell -like ability is cast like a spell.

It doesn't say whether you use the prepared casting rules (a la Wizard) or the spontaneous casting rules (a la Sorcerer) anywhere I can find.

So, even you cannot say that "those SLAs don't count as being spontaneously cast" without backing it up via RAW, unless that's your opinion. Which is fine, but I'm looking for any RAW reason it wouldn't count. So far, I've only found more questions than answers LOL. Ahh, Pathfinder, how we love you so.

Unfortunately, in this case, the pedantic semantics do matter, and no rule qualifies it either way. Even the related FAQ says it's assumed to be the Sorcerer/Wizard version. So, couldn't you use either one?


Barry Armstrong wrote:
Whale_Cancer wrote:

I understand that, but my concern is that those SLAs don't count as being spontaneously cast (thus you wouldn't qualify for "Spontaneously casting Arcane Spells"). Shimesen asserted that "as far as spontanious goes, all SLA's qualify for this"; this does not seem right to me. His post seams to be responding to my question to him/her, but I don't see how it relates to the question I asked.

Even if you could cast a bard spell as a SLA, it does not mean that you cast it or can cast it spontaneously. For instance, a paladin is a prepared caster. A paladin could take unsanctioned knowledge to get a bard only spell. That spell would still be cast as a prepared spell. The ability to cast spontaneously is (under my understanding) an element of a class feature, rather than of spells or spell lists.

I'm not really vested in this point of minutia, other than an academic interest on where the RAW would come down on this.

The rules don't say either way HOW the spell is cast. Just that the spell -like ability is cast like a spell.

It doesn't say whether you use the prepared casting rules (a la Wizard) or the spontaneous casting rules (a la Sorcerer) anywhere I can find.

So, even you cannot say that "those SLAs don't count as being spontaneously cast" without backing it up via RAW.

Unfortunately, in this case, the pedantic semantics do matter, and no rule qualifies it either way. Even the related FAQ says it's assumed to be the Sorcerer/Wizard version. So, couldn't you use either one?

My understanding is that all spells are just cast. SLAs are effectively cast for the purpose of qualifying for things. Things are only spontaneously cast if a specific features says that you can spontaneously cast them. The fact that it is the sorcerer/wizard list doesn't matter for the reason I pointed out with my paladin example.

That is just my reading.


Since the requirement is spells.

Quote:
Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation.

You would need to be able to have more than one SLA with at least two different 1st level arcane spells.

Liberty's Edge

@Whale_Cancer: It appears you skipped my post the first time, so I'll restate it:

Dragon Disciple does not require spontaneous casting. It requires the ability to "cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation". SLAs meet that definition as long as they are a 1st level (or higher, presumably) spell on the sorcerer/wizard list (or bard, as long as it's not also a cleric or druid spell).

Whether an SLA is "Spontaneous" or not is irrelevant to the dragon disciple question. It is cast, and it is cast without preparation. This is what it requires.


StabbittyDoom wrote:

@Whale_Cancer: It appears you skipped my post the first time, so I'll restate it:

Dragon Disciple does not require spontaneous casting. It requires the ability to "cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation". SLAs meet that definition as long as they are a 1st level (or higher, presumably) spell on the sorcerer/wizard list (or bard, as long as it's not also a cleric or druid spell).

Whether an SLA is "Spontaneous" or not is irrelevant to the dragon disciple question. It is cast, and it is cast without preparation. This is what it requires.

Ahh, I was just going off of OP which had the line "Spontaneously casting Arcane Spells" in quotation marks.


All spells and spell-like abilities are indeed cast. They are divided into either Arcane or Divine, and then sub-divided into prepared or spontaneous, based on your class.

However, racial SLA's have no class. A level 1 Aasimar can cast Daylight 1/day. He knows how to do this inherently, and doesn't have the ability to "use or lose the slot". He has the innate ability to produce the spell without having it on a list, preparing it in a book, reading it off a scroll, having a familiar grant him the spell, etc...

Since no rule actually covers it, if it were at my table and I were the DM, I think I would rule that RACIAL SLA's would count as spontaneous, and CLASS FEATURE SLA's would be based on the methodology of the class with which you received them.

At any rate, would allowing an Aasimar to do this really BREAK anything? No, in fact it would limit him, if anything, per above response by the guy confused as to why I'd want to do it. He'd lose a great ability that the Dragon Disciple provides, the arcane spell progression.


Whale_Cancer wrote:
StabbittyDoom wrote:

@Whale_Cancer: It appears you skipped my post the first time, so I'll restate it:

Dragon Disciple does not require spontaneous casting. It requires the ability to "cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation". SLAs meet that definition as long as they are a 1st level (or higher, presumably) spell on the sorcerer/wizard list (or bard, as long as it's not also a cleric or druid spell).

Whether an SLA is "Spontaneous" or not is irrelevant to the dragon disciple question. It is cast, and it is cast without preparation. This is what it requires.

Ahh, I was just going off of OP which had the line "Spontaneously casting Arcane Spells" in quotation marks.

I have to assume the RAI was to have "spontaneous casting" and "without preparation" to mean the same thing. Although, you're right, that minor difference may make the difference between RAW legal or not.

Thanks for the clarification, StabbityDoom.

At any rate, I stand by the words above. Racial SLAs definitely allow people to qualify for this since they aren't prepared (even if they aren't spontaneously casting it).

/sigh. Pathfinder Pedantic Semantics strikes again. I thought the intent was to make 3.5 BETTER and EASIER? /endrant


IMO: You'd need a race, class, trait, or some ability to make it spontaneous. Otherwise its just cast.

By that same token- if something specifies prepared caster this wouldn't work for that either.

At least, thats my .02.

-S


Barry Armstrong wrote:
/sigh. Pathfinder Pedantic Semantics strikes again. I thought the intent was to make 3.5 BETTER and EASIER? /endrant

I hear you, brother. It's all the baggage from making PF backwards compatible with 3.5. Bah.


Next issue:

Would there be a way for a Kobold to get access to Racial Heritage (Aasimar) to pick up the Metallic Wings feat to save on feat tax for the claw/claw/bite/tail/wing/wing natural weapon full-attack combination?

If so, I'd be very interested in seeing how...


Selgard wrote:

IMO: You'd need a race, class, trait, or some ability to make it spontaneous. Otherwise its just cast.

By that same token- if something specifies prepared caster this wouldn't work for that either.

At least, thats my .02.

-S

There's no such thing as "just cast". A spell is cast either spontaneously or prepared. And a spell-like ability is cast "just like the spell". So, are they spontaneous or prepared? There's no technical game definition of "cast without preparation". Hence the confusion over the prereq qualification.

Liberty's Edge

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Whale_Cancer wrote:
Barry Armstrong wrote:
/sigh. Pathfinder Pedantic Semantics strikes again. I thought the intent was to make 3.5 BETTER and EASIER? /endrant
I hear you, brother. It's all the baggage from making PF backwards compatible with 3.5. Bah.

Hear, hear.

Most times that I make a post on a rules forum I feel like a lawyer, all stereotypes of selling one's soul to the devil included.

That said, I feel like Pathfinder is at least an improvement over 3.5e. Maybe not by leaps and bounds, but still a notable improvement.

I would love to see this design team tackle a Pathfinder 2.0 that didn't worry as much about back-compat, but that's unlikely to happen given the reasoning behind Pathfinder in the first place. If we do see a PF2.0 it's probably going to retain the back-compat focus. Speaking of which, the core rulebook line is starting to reach pretty far out there. I wonder just how far off a PF2.0 might be.


Ok, so, first question answered. Technically, Aasimar does not qualify since their SLA is a 3rd level spell. The PrC Requires 1st level Arcane spells without preparation...

Second question:

Is there a way to get a Kobold access to Racial Heritage (Aasimar) to get him the Metallic Wing feat and prequalifiers?

Liberty's Edge

Barry Armstrong wrote:

Ok, so, first question answered. Technically, Aasimar does not qualify since their SLA is a 3rd level spell. The PrC Requires 1st level Arcane spells without preparation...

Second question:

Is there a way to get a Kobold access to Racial Heritage (Aasimar) to get him the Metallic Wing feat and prequalifiers?

Since Aasimar isn't a humanoid type, no. Even if the kobold could somehow count as human so as to take the feat, they couldn't select Aasimar as their heritage.

There was some similar 3.5 content, though. Look up dragonwrought kobolds. With the first feat you become dragon type, the second gives you wings that help you glide and jump and the third gives you flight (IIRC). I don't think there was a feat for wing attacks, sadly.


StabbittyDoom wrote:
Barry Armstrong wrote:

Ok, so, first question answered. Technically, Aasimar does not qualify since their SLA is a 3rd level spell. The PrC Requires 1st level Arcane spells without preparation...

Second question:

Is there a way to get a Kobold access to Racial Heritage (Aasimar) to get him the Metallic Wing feat and prequalifiers?

Since Aasimar isn't a humanoid type, no. Even if the kobold could somehow count as human so as to take the feat, they couldn't select Aasimar as their heritage.

There was some similar 3.5 content, though. Look up dragonwrought kobolds. With the first feat you become dragon type, the second gives you wings that help you glide and jump and the third gives you flight (IIRC). I don't think there was a feat for wing attacks, sadly.

Yeah, no DM I play with allows 3.5 content to be used with Pathfinder. Including myself. So, Pathfinder is 3.5 backwards compatible...yet sometimes not.

So, it looks like Aasimar has to be the base race to make this work.


Barry Armstrong wrote:
StabbittyDoom wrote:
Barry Armstrong wrote:

Ok, so, first question answered. Technically, Aasimar does not qualify since their SLA is a 3rd level spell. The PrC Requires 1st level Arcane spells without preparation...

Second question:

Is there a way to get a Kobold access to Racial Heritage (Aasimar) to get him the Metallic Wing feat and prequalifiers?

Since Aasimar isn't a humanoid type, no. Even if the kobold could somehow count as human so as to take the feat, they couldn't select Aasimar as their heritage.

There was some similar 3.5 content, though. Look up dragonwrought kobolds. With the first feat you become dragon type, the second gives you wings that help you glide and jump and the third gives you flight (IIRC). I don't think there was a feat for wing attacks, sadly.

Yeah, no DM I play with allows 3.5 content to be used with Pathfinder. Including myself. So, Pathfinder is 3.5 backwards compatible...yet sometimes not.

So, it looks like Aasimar has to be the base race to make this work.

Actually, there is a sidebar in the Blood of Angels talking about non-human Aasimar. I don't see any reason a Kobold could not be a Kobold Aasimar (other than it seems kind of weird, fluff wise).


Barry Armstrong wrote:
Selgard wrote:

IMO: You'd need a race, class, trait, or some ability to make it spontaneous. Otherwise its just cast.

By that same token- if something specifies prepared caster this wouldn't work for that either.

At least, thats my .02.

-S

There's no such thing as "just cast". A spell is cast either spontaneously or prepared. And a spell-like ability is cast "just like the spell". So, are they spontaneous or prepared? There's no technical game definition of "cast without preparation". Hence the confusion over the prereq qualification.

It doesn't say. Since it doesn't say one or the other then until they further clarify it then it is either neither or both.

Given the latitude this . err.. clarification already has given to the Prc's i'm inclined to go with "neither." But neither or both- flip a coin either are really as likely. (unless its a bonus to Melee. then its "no" regardless of which way you swing. gotta love the recent FAQ's.)

Tl;dr:
It doesn't say prepared so it isn't. It doesn't say spontaneous so it isn't. What it Is is an SLA. You'll have to find one that says its one or the other if you are seeking to use it for something that requires one or the other- and even that is just my opinion cuz they just didn't say.

-S


Just my 2 coopers but i don’t think should work at all.
1. Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as having that spell on its spell list for the purpose of activating spell completion or spell trigger items?
No. A spell-like ability is not a spell, having a spell-like ability is not part of a class's spell list, and therefore doesn't give the creature the ability to activate spell completion or spell trigger items. ( FAQ)

Since it is technically not a spell I don’t think you being able to use it would qualify “ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells”.
2. Further evidence it is not actually a spell.- Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A spell-like ability has no verbal, somatic, or material component, nor does it require a focus. The user activates it mentally. Armor never affects a spell-like ability's use, even if the ability resembles an arcane spell with a somatic component.

The SLA isn’t a spell so it cant be use to satisfy “ ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation”

If it were a spell it would require components , and other things if armor would be worn it would be subject to it arcane failure as well. But you could where full plate and use these things, just more evidence that they are indeed not spells..

Sorry I just have to go with no it doesn’t count , Just my point of view though


@ Tuffon, I understand, but FAQ says that they do, indeed, count to qualify for prerequistes. So the design team would disagree with you. I appreciate your input though.

@ Whale Cancer, I might have to give that splatbook a better look. Fluff would still be ok, as I can justify the concept with my background story:

(Steel Dragon polymorphed into an Aasimar, mated with a Kobold).

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Vod Canockers wrote:

Since the requirement is spells.

Quote:
Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation.
You would need to be able to have more than one SLA with at least two different 1st level arcane spells.

Pathfinder Design Team says otherwise:

Pathfinder Design Team wrote:

The design team does not consider a prerequisite or requirement of "ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells" to literally mean "ability to cast at least two or more 1st-level arcane spells."

Being able to cast one spell of that type and level meets the prerequisite or requirement (if the prerequisite or requirement was intended to mean "two or more," it would say that, or use language like "at least two").


The ruling allowing them is suspect at best which is why i just said its my opinion, and even the design team sees this as a can of worms they may want to close.

Edit 7/12/13: The design team is aware that the above answer means that certain races can gain access to some spellcaster prestige classes earlier than the default minimum (character level 6). Given that prestige classes are usually a sub-optimal character choice (especially for spellcasters), the design team is allowing this FAQ ruling for prestige classes. If there is in-play evidence that this ruling is creating characters that are too powerful, the design team may revisit whether or not to allow spell-like abilities to count for prestige class requirements.

I imagine that edit note there will change when folks start taking eldrict knight at level 3 and other races cry foul as they have to wait for level 6.

PS if you do this you dont gain any spell caster levels if you dont have them ..., So are you just looking to dip into DD for some Str and some armor?


Tuffon wrote:

The ruling allowing them is suspect at best which is why i just said its my opinion, and even the design team sees this as a can of worms they may want to close.

Edit 7/12/13: The design team is aware that the above answer means that certain races can gain access to some spellcaster prestige classes earlier than the default minimum (character level 6). Given that prestige classes are usually a sub-optimal character choice (especially for spellcasters), the design team is allowing this FAQ ruling for prestige classes. If there is in-play evidence that this ruling is creating characters that are too powerful, the design team may revisit whether or not to allow spell-like abilities to count for prestige class requirements.

I imagine that edit note there will change when folks start taking eldrict knight at level 3 and other races cry foul as they have to wait for level 6.

PS if you do this you dont gain any spell caster levels if you dont have them ..., So are you just looking to dip into DD for some Str and some armor?

No, DD is the endgame. So I'll likely take a Sorc or Bard level or two to actually qualify, I really just wanted to see if it was possible for a strictly martial class to do it without any levels in spellcasting classes.

As far as Eldritch Knight, technically a level 1 Aasimar Fighter would qualify using the FAQ rules, since Daylight is a 3rd level Arcane Spell and the PrC has no skill prerequisites.

But, Eldritch Knight isn't really a "broken" PrC. You don't gain much by being able to do it early in your career since you trade so much out.


Entering it with rogue 4 is amusing , using the magic talents.

As for your question, wouldn't gaining Flare Burst from Heavenly Radiance qualify you?


I was thining level 1 fighter for martial, then 1 wizard level for then taking EK

You need martial weapons for EK as well as the 3rd level spell thing( so 3 if you want the caster levels you get from EK to mean anything)

Personally I feel you dont trade out much, compared to a full wizard you would be 2 caster levels behind(level wise, and only 1 level behind a sorc). Meanwhile you gain more HP than a straight wizard or Sorcerer, at character level 4 you have the BAB of any 3/4BAB class, at lvl 5 you have a better BAB than any 3/4 BAB class.

Seems like a lot to me as someone who had to nuture and care for my squishy wizard for 5-7 levels before he became a true force on the battle mat..., Guess that is just a matter of prospective and how high your groups like to play. We dont go much past lvl 14-15, typically thorugh level 7 its the melee types that shine in our groups and after that its the casters. a character like this doesnt really come into its own caster wise till lvl 7-9. But that same character is actually pretty potent through all the levels my group usually plays to.

The balance issue isnt actually the end numbers, its party balance to me. This build represents a small trade off to be really good( not the best) in both casting and melee. I guess that is the point of the PRC but being able to do this at level 3 seems like super easy mode (up, up, down, down, left, left right , right, select start!! Sorry couldnt resist!)


The early entry EK is still meh, but is at least not completely hopeless.

A level 3 EK has 1st level arcane spells and 2 BAB. A bard or magus has 1st level arcane spells and 2 BAB and can wear armor. The EK is below par.

A level 4 EK has 1st level spells and 3 BAB. The bard and magus have 2nd level spells and 3 BAB. The EK is losing ground.

At level 5 the EK has 2nd level spells at last and 4 BAB. Finally he's ahead of the base class gishes. Except he's not. He doesn't have attack bonus boosters or the ability to wear armor. I'm not even sure if he gets his school bonus spell slots except for first level. The early entry EK doesn't really start to shine until level 7 or so, but until level 19 will always be missing a real wizard's best spells and will always be worse at fighting than a warrior, much less a proper PC classed martial.


I am a bit surprised with the number of people that is equating the ability to "cast" one particular spell of let's say level 3 with the ability to cast 3rd level spells. No one else sees a difference? I don't think that the FAQ was meant to speed up the qualification for prestige classes...

Liberty's Edge

Aeric Blackberry wrote:
I am a bit surprised with the number of people that is equating the ability to "cast" one particular spell of let's say level 3 with the ability to cast 3rd level spells. No one else sees a difference? I don't think that the FAQ was meant to speed up the qualification for prestige classes...

They explicitly note in the FAQ that SLAs can be used to speed up the qualification for prestige classes (they note elsewhere that the "s" in "spells" is grammatical only; you do not need to be able to cast multiple for it to count). They also say, however, that they'll be keeping an eye on it and may retract the ruling if it proves problematic. So far the only problem is that even with the trickery the prestige classes largely suck.


if you can only cast 1 spell per day you can sil cast multiple spells in a week


StabbittyDoom wrote:

@Whale_Cancer: It appears you skipped my post the first time, so I'll restate it:

Dragon Disciple does not require spontaneous casting. It requires the ability to "cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation". SLAs meet that definition as long as they are a 1st level (or higher, presumably) spell on the sorcerer/wizard list (or bard, as long as it's not also a cleric or druid spell).

Whether an SLA is "Spontaneous" or not is irrelevant to the dragon disciple question. It is cast, and it is cast without preparation. This is what it requires.

I hope this is true, considering it'd open up more options for interesting character builds...

Dark Archive

It's weak, but if you're looking to do it than yes, it's fully legal.

I'd +1 on 1 level of mage or bard; it's worth it just to advance spells of some sort. When in doubt, most dragons can cast a few spells :).


Half elves can gain faerie fire (druid 1) with drow magic, replacing the two favored classes option and skill focus (oh darn). At that point you are welcome to use whatever martial class you like and still be a dragon disciple (and you have the flexability to put your +2 bonus into strength, which is great for a martial character).

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