Revisiting Rules: Actions in one Round (Standard > Move > Swift)

[Pirate]

Yar!

This isn't so much a rules question as it is a design philosophy question (and semi-rant)...

Swift Actions link

Swift Actions wrote:

A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting, activating a feat, or the activation of magic items.

Hypothetical: I'm a multiclassed Inquisitor/Cavalier. I can activate my Judgement ability as a Swift action, and I can buff nearby allies with my Tactician ability as a Standard action, and I can still use my Move action to move, draw a weapon, etc.

I level up a bit and now I'm an Inquisitor # / Cavalier 9. My tactician ability gets stronger and faster! Huzzah! Now it can be used as a swift action... Wait WHAT!? Before this I could use both the Tactician ability and my judgement ability in the same round, and now that I'm better at it, I can't? I want to be able to buff my allies, and as I get higher level and supposedly better at it, I actually get slower/worse at it? *facepalm*

This isn't the only case where an ability "upgrades" and "gets faster/easier to use" by becoming swift actions instead of Standard or Move, which actually ends up makes it harder to use. Bardic Performance, for example, start off as Standard, the upgrade to Move, then finally to Swift. A multiclassed Bard/Inquisitor starts being able to activate a Performance and a Judgement in the same round no problem, but as he gets "better" at it he eventually becomes unable to do this anymore. A multiclassed Bard/Cavalier starts off being able to start a Performance and issue a Challenge in the same round, but as he get's "better" at doing this, he becomes unable to do it.

Yeah yeah, these are corner case scenarios. Who cares? Well, I do. Anyone who plays characters into the teens of levels probably will as well. I get not wanting a high level caster being able to cast 3 quickened spells in a round, I can even understand wanting a single classed Inquisitor after level 5 having to spend two rounds to get the bets of his abilities (first round to swift action judgement, second round to swift action bane), but this "only one single swift action per turn" really hurts in scenarios where the ability in question starts off as a Standard or Move action and "upgrades" later on (really, a downgrade if you have other swift action abilities that you can no longer use at the same time with the "upgrade" but you could before).

All I can really say is... why? Why are abilities being designed that "upgrade" to the point of not being able to be used as effectively in conjunction with other abilities as they were able to at lower levels.

Thanks for reading my rant.

~P

[Chris Kenney]

A quick counter - in most cases where an ability's action economy improves, the rules say you "may" or "can" use the more efficient action. This means, in effect, that you are supposed to retain the ability to use the prior action type as well, if you so choose.

[Stome]

Just as Chris has said most of these abilities in fact give you the choice of what action to use. This is a largely overlooked fact oddly.

[Pirate]

Yar!

Overlooked... yeah, I glossed over and completely missed that language in the Bardic Performance. That is good news for multiclassed bards! However, that language doesn't exist in the Cavalier Tactician ability. When it upgrades, it's text reads: "Using the tactician ability is a swift action."

(italics mine)

So multiclassed Cavalier/Inquisitors are still in an awkward vortex of mutating action economy.

~P

[KahnyaGnorc]

You can use a lower-tier action in place of an higher-tier action. You can use your Standard action slot to perform a Move or Swift Action, and you can use your Move action slot to perform a Swift action.

[Zaister]

KahnyaGnorc wrote:

You can use a lower-tier action in place of an higher-tier action. You can use your Standard action slot to perform a Move or Swift Action, and you can use your Move action slot to perform a Swift action.

No you can't. While you can use your standard action to perform something that usually requires a move action, there is no rule that allows the use of a standard or move action to perform somthing that is listed as a a swift action.

[snejjj]

The PRD says: "A move action allows you to move up to your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time." (note the second part). Since a Swift action needs "a very small amount of time", I think I can safely assume that you can use the move action to carry out the swift action veeeery slowly.

[Matthew Downie]

A swift action takes a small amount of time but a large amount of mental focus. A move action takes time and very little focus. (That's how I think of it, anyway.)

Adding a rule that you can use a move action as a swift action would be a major power up for many characters - two quickened spells per round, etc.

[DrDeth]

KahnyaGnorc wrote:

You can use a lower-tier action in place of an higher-tier action. You can use your Standard action slot to perform a Move or Swift Action, and you can use your Move action slot to perform a Swift action.

That's 4th ed. Actually it's one of their better ideas. Reasonable houserule.

To answer the OP, for 99% of the PC's it really is an upgrade. A BIG upgrade. PF doesn;t really encourage multiclassing anyway. What you see as a disad is a huge advantage to most others.

However, just ask your DM for the 4th ed as a houserule.

[Ughbash]

KahnyaGnorc wrote:

You can use a lower-tier action in place of an higher-tier action. You can use your Standard action slot to perform a Move or Swift Action, and you can use your Move action slot to perform a Swift action.

And you can NOT do this. Otherwiose casters would want to cast 3 spells in a round. Quickened spell swift action, Quickend spell move action, standard spell.

Move can not be used to do a swift action.

[snejjj]

Was my comment above just unbelievable stupid, or why did everyone ignore it? (If yes, please tell me, why, since I'm new here)

The move-action-sentence worded as it is, I still think it is possible RAW, to use the move action for a (less time consuming) swift action, even if it isn't explicitly stated.

Probably this would be a good FAQ-candidate.

Is it possible to use a move action to execute a swift action?

[Rynjin]

snejjj wrote:

The PRD says: "A move action allows you to move up to your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time." (note the second part). Since a Swift action needs "a very small amount of time", I think I can safely assume that you can use the move action to carry out the swift action veeeery slowly.

Using a Swift action does not take a "similar amount of time" as a Move action.

As well, I'm pretty sure the Devs have said a few times that "downgrading" actions isn't possible.

[KahnyaGnorc]

Ughbash wrote:

KahnyaGnorc wrote:

You can use a lower-tier action in place of an higher-tier action. You can use your Standard action slot to perform a Move or Swift Action, and you can use your Move action slot to perform a Swift action.

And you can NOT do this. Otherwiose casters would want to cast 3 spells in a round. Quickened spell swift action, Quickend spell move action, standard spell.

Move can not be used to do a swift action.

From the PRD (emphasis mine):

Quote:

Cast a Quickened Spell

You can cast a quickened spell (see the Quicken Spell feat), or any spell whose casting time is designated as a free or swift action, as a swift action. Only one such spell can be cast in any round, and such spells don't count toward your normal limit of one spell per round. Casting a spell as a swift action doesn't incur an attack of opportunity.

[ryric]

KahnyaGnorc, PRD quote back at ya:

PRD wrote:

Swift Action: A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform only a single swift action per turn.

(emphasis mine)

I guess I would allow someone to "trade down" to a swift, but it would be a waste as it still wouldn't allow 2 swifts in one turn.

[KahnyaGnorc]

ryric wrote:

KahnyaGnorc, PRD quote back at ya:

PRD wrote:

Swift Action: A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform only a single swift action per turn.

(emphasis mine)

I guess I would allow someone to "trade down" to a swift, but it would be a waste as it still wouldn't allow 2 swifts in one turn.

An action that takes up a Swift Action Slot fits the definition of what can be done in a Move Action, as noted above.

Also as noted, it makes absolutely no sense that an action that normally takes a move or standard action, and then is improved to a Swift Action, can't still be used as a move or standard action. In other words, if you can do something in less time, you can certainly do it in more time.

Say, you have 9 hours in a work day for various jobs, split between a 3.5 hour slot, a 3 hour slot, and a 2.5 hour slot. You only have one 2.5 hour slot in the day, but does that mean you can only take one 2.5 hour job? Of course not.

[ryric]

So the only real conflict we have here is with abilities that auto-improve as you gain levels? Setting aside bard13/cavalier9, as 22nd level characters don't really come up that often, I don't think it's unreasonable to allow a cavalier to use his Tactician ability at a lower class level. There's a precedent in allowing casters to cast spells below their current level, so letting someone use a "weaker" version of their class features doesn't seem like an unreasonable call.

That would mean that Tactician would be a standard action instead of a swift. There is really no provision in Pathfinder for the general action "downgrade" as proposed. You can take an extra move instead of a standard is it.

KahnyaGnorc, the point of my quoted section is, per the rules, even if you could turn a move into a swift it still wouldn't let you take two swift actions in one turn. So you turn your move into a swift and then your normal swift action ends up unused. You gave up your move action for..nothing? Yay?

[KahnyaGnorc]

ryric wrote:

KahnyaGnorc, the point of my quoted section is, per the rules, even if you could turn a move into a swift it still wouldn't let you take two swift actions in one turn. So you turn your move into a swift and then your normal swift action ends up unused. You gave up your move action for..nothing? Yay?

An action that takes up a Swift Action in combat takes less time than an action that takes up a Move Action. You can use a Move Action to performs actions that take an equivalent amount of time as a Move. You can take longer than necessary to perform actions. Therefore, you can use a Move Action to perform an action that takes up only a Swift Action slot.

Like my example above, you can use your 3 hour slot to take a 2.5 hour job.

[Pandora's]

Whether or not it makes sense, move actions have to be sacrosanct from a design standpoint. They allow you to do things that do not directly harm your enemy or buff yourself. Allowing swift actions instead of moves would go against the game's assumptions for combat balance, such as it is. That said, I would allow my players to use their standard action for any swift action. That still only allows two spells cast, and allows examples like yours to work.

[Matthew Downie]

KahnyaGnorc wrote:

Like my example above, you can use your 3 hour slot to take a 2.5 hour job.

Let's say a move action is a gentle three hour walk, and a swift action is a half hour of sprinting. You can't necessarily do the swift action twice in a six hour period - you have limited mental and physical resouces as well as limited time.

"You can perform only a single swift action per turn" is not ambiguous. Anything else is a house rule.

[KahnyaGnorc]

Pandora's wrote:

Whether or not it makes sense, move actions have to be sacrosanct from a design standpoint. They allow you to do things that do not directly harm your enemy or buff yourself. Allowing swift actions instead of moves would go against the game's assumptions for combat balance, such as it is. That said, I would allow my players to use their standard action for any swift action. That still only allows two spells cast, and allows examples like yours to work.

A rogue feinting as a move action to get that Sneak Attack damage, a Grappler maintain a grapple as a move action, or a witch cackling to extend hexes as a move action, just to name three things, would counter than "sacrosanct" position of Move Actions. Move actions are just actions that take less time than a standard but more time than a swift.

[Matthew Downie]

So how long do they take exactly? 3.25 seconds for a Standard Action, 2.25 seconds for a move action, and 0.5 seconds for a swift action?
That means you can do twelve swift actions per round if you don't do anything else.

[KahnyaGnorc]

Matthew Downie wrote:

So how long do they take exactly? 3.25 seconds for a Standard Action, 2.25 seconds for a move action, and 0.5 seconds for a swift action?

That means you can do twelve swift actions per round if you don't do anything else.

STD + M + SW = 6, six second round

STD > M > SW, relationship between the three action types
STD < 2 * SW, can't replace a Standard with 2 Swifts

That would define an area of possible time lengths for the three.

[ryric]

I guess I'm not even sure what KahnyaGnorc is arguing any more. RAW is clear, only one swift action a round. If Kahnya is arguing for a houserule, whatever works in an individual table's game is fine. Kahnya keeps saying swift is less time than a move, but that doesn't matter, maximum one per round. If you need rationalization then a swift takes up more mental resources than a move. To use the hours analogy, you can't do multiple 2.5 hour tasks in an 8 hour day if you only have the material resources to do it once.

[Galnörag]

Matthew Downie wrote:

A swift action takes a small amount of time but a large amount of mental focus. A move action takes time and very little focus. (That's how I think of it, anyway.)

Adding a rule that you can use a move action as a swift action would be a major power up for many characters - two quickened spells per round, etc.

edit: beat me by a few minutes

There is a raw block in place for that:

Combat Section:

PRD wrote:

Cast a Quickened Spell

You can cast a quickened spell (see the Quicken Spell feat), or any spell whose casting time is designated as a free or swift action, as a swift action. Only one such spell can be cast in any round, and such spells don't count toward your normal limit of one spell per round. Casting a spell as a swift action doesn't incur an attack of opportunity.

So you are already limited to 1 spell quickened regardless of what action is consumed to cast it. Effectively saying that even if you could convert a move to a swift you couldn't cast another quickened (swift, immediate or free action) spell.

[Pandora's]

KahnyaGnorc wrote:

A rogue feinting as a move action to get that Sneak Attack damage, a Grappler maintain a grapple as a move action, or a witch cackling to extend hexes as a move action, just to name three things, would counter than "sacrosanct" position of Move Actions. Move actions are just actions that take less time than a standard but more time than a swift.

I am aware there are exceptions. Those exceptions are made by the game's designers and are an inclusive list of "these things won't break the game if you do them as a move action." Allowing all swift actions to be used as move actions would allow likely abusable effects the designers did not intend. In addition, consider the following part of my post.

Galnörag wrote:

So you are already limited to 1 spell quickened regardless of what action is consumed to cast it. Effectively saying that even if you could convert a move to a swift you couldn't cast another quickened (swift, immediate or free action) spell.

Correct, casters are limited to one quickened spell per round according to RAW. However, you could still cast an additional spell that normally has a swift action casting time, such as any of the "Litany of..." spells and Burst of Speed. One standard action spell, one quickened spell, and one normally swift action spell all in one round.

The designers assume that swift actions are easier to perform and less powerful than standard actions, and so allowing swift actions to replace standard actions is not very harmful. There is no such assumption about move actions. Allowing either to be substituted for swift actions is a house rule.

[Matthew Downie]

KahnyaGnorc wrote:

STD + M + SW = 6, six second round
STD > M > SW, relationship between the three action types
STD < 2 * SW, can't replace a Standard with 2 Swifts

That would define an area of possible time lengths for the three.

STD > 3 (or you could take two standard actions in a round.)

And M > 2 (or you could take three move actions in a round.)
Therefore
STD + M > 5
Which, since STD + M + SW = 6, means
SW < 1

But if STD > 3 and STD < 2 * SW then
SW > 1.5
This is a contradiction, therefore there are no solutions to the simultaneous equation.

[KahnyaGnorc]

Swift Actions all originated as Free Actions, with Quickened Spells having a special denotation.

Any number of Free Actions (which ALL Swift Actions were before the creation of Swift Actions) could normally be performed during a round, with the caveat that the DM could say that, if an action would take a bit or the aggregate of multiple free actions, those actions take longer, a Move, Standard, Full-Round, etc.

Swift Actions were created because of the need to have an action somewhere between Free and Move, which is why the description of Swift Action compares exclusively with Free Actions (as they were carved out of Free Actions). Swift Actions are a subset of Free Actions with added limitations.

[KahnyaGnorc]

Matthew Downie wrote:

KahnyaGnorc wrote:

STD + M + SW = 6, six second round
STD > M > SW, relationship between the three action types
STD < 2 * SW, can't replace a Standard with 2 Swifts

That would define an area of possible time lengths for the three.

STD > 3 (or you could take two standard actions in a round.)

And M > 2 (or you could take three move actions in a round.)
Therefore
STD + M > 5
Which, since STD + M + SW = 6, means
SW < 1

But if STD > 3 and STD < 2 * SW then
SW > 1.5
This is a contradiction, therefore there are no solutions to the simultaneous equation.

I should have gone with my first instinct and put STD + M + SW <= 6, as there would be overhead time between two actions, so:

2 * STD + Overhead > 6
STD > 3 - .5 * Overhead.

[KahnyaGnorc]

Oh, and from the Magic section of he PRD:

Quote:

Casting Time

Most spells have a casting time of 1 standard action. Others take 1 round or more, while a few require only a swift action.

A spell that takes 1 round to cast is a full-round action. It comes into effect just before the beginning of your turn in the round after you began casting the spell. You then act normally after the spell is completed.

A spell that takes 1 minute to cast comes into effect just before your turn 1 minute later (and for each of those 10 rounds, you are casting a spell as a full-round action, just as noted above for 1-round casting times). These actions must be consecutive and uninterrupted, or the spell automatically fails.

When you begin a spell that takes 1 round or longer to cast, you must continue the concentration from the current round to just before your turn in the next round (at least). If you lose concentration before the casting is complete, you lose the spell.

A spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't count against your normal limit of one spell per round. However, you may cast such a spell only once per round. Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 swift action doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity.

You make all pertinent decisions about a spell (range, target, area, effect, version, and so forth) when the spell comes into effect.

So, even with using a Move action to perform something that normally takes a swift action to perform, you can only cast at most 2 spells per round. However, a Cleric/Cavalier could cast a Quckened Spell, Issue a Challenge, and make a single attack, for example.

[Michael Sayre]

Minus that whole little bit in the rules that clearly says only 1 swift action per round.... But I'm assuming we've long since discarded that to theorize on the possible impact of allowing additional swift actions through action trading?

[Pirate]

Yar!

Quote:

... bard13/cavalier9 ...

Well, it also comes up for Inquisitor1/Cavalier9, a 10th level character.

And an Inquisitor1/Bard13, a 14th level character.

Most commonly, this happens with a Bard1/Cavalier4/Battle Herald 5+, that's also a 10th level character. Battle Herald, a PrC that is basically all about this combination.

Bard and Inquisitor can be exchanged with Monk (using ki) and Paladin (smite evil) and you still get this. These examples are also by no means exhaustive. I've sure there are other options/combinations I've missed.

There are people who play these class combinations, who also play past level 9... so this issue does come up. It's frustrating when - while playing by the rules - you become unable to do something you were once able to do, because you got "better" at it. o_O

Sure, it's a real upgrade if you are single classed and/or never use some of these abilities... but that is not a mandatory limitation of class selection.

I personally see no issue with allowing more than one swift action per round, provided that the rule within the magic section on the limitation for Quickened spells still hold. That is the one where I can see things getting out of control. I don't see it for things like the Tactician, Challenge, Bane, Judgement, Bardic Performance, Inspiring Command, Smite Evil, and other such abilities.

~P

[Pirate]

Yar!

Forget the multiclassing. This is true for a single class Cavalier as well. Challenge is a swift action. The Tactician ability is a progressive ability, starting at Standard, then upgrading to swift at 9th level.

pre-9th level he could start combat by giving his allies a boost with the Tactician ability and declare an enemy the target of his challenge. If not a surprise round, he could them move into a better position as well.

At 9th level and thereafter, he can no longer do this. He can only boost his allies OR declare a challenge, but no longer can he do both. Yes, he can do other things (like make a partial charge in a surprise round), But this is a team game. Sometimes we want to be able to be team players rather than the most badass solo player who happens to be on a team.

Why is the option for a Cavalier to buff his allies with his insight of battle field tactics (the Tactician ability) and declare a challenge on an enemy in the same round only possible before 9th level, and becomes impossible after 9th level?

Maybe I'm beating a dead horse, but this really bothers me.

~P

[Fraco]

Hi pathfinders! Well my question is the next... a monk can activate a swift action when is not his turn?

[Rynjin]

Fraco wrote:

Hi pathfinders! Well my question is the next... a monk can activate a swift action when is not his turn?

No.

He can activate an Immediate action though, which is sort of the same thing (it eats your Swift for the next round), so pay attention to that.

Tell me what ability specifically this Monk is trying to activate?

[Sissyl]

The limit on a maximum of one swift action per round is, I would say, intended to stop people from taking more than one in addition to std and move actions. As has been stated, quickened spells are still limited to only one per round. Letting people use move actions and std actions to make swift actions is not something I'd expect to break game balance, and would have to playtest before shutting down. Even if what you are talking about is giving players the ability to, in essence, trade both their move and std actions for two extra swift actions every round. I would certainly not consider it reasonable that someone who gets better at something then MUST use things as a swift action and thus gets worse action economy at it.

EDIT: Noticed it was a thread necromancy here. Ah well.