Modern Guns


Advice

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I need some modern gun stats. I'm not half bad at coming up with custom stats, but I know nothing about guns. I figured if anybody would know a thing or two about guns it was the internet, so here are some existing Pathfinder gun stats that seem relevant:

Double-Barreled Shotgun* 1d8, x2, 80 ft., misfire 1-2, capacity 2, 15 lbs., B+P, scatter, move action to load
Lawrence 1917 Flamethrower** 4d6, no crit, capacity 6, 20 lbs. (plus 40 lbs. of tanks), fire damage, 60 ft. line that works more or less like the automatic weapon quality but each shot uses only one of its 6 bursts of flame (as opposed to 10 bullets) and creatures hit must make a DC 20 Reflex save or catch on fire (2d6 fire damage each round until extinguished) plus the tanks add -4 to armour check penalty and a ruptured tank explodes (hardness 10, 5 hp, 6d6 fire damage to wielder, and 3d6 within 20 ft. radius with normal Reflex save)
Madsen Light Machine Gun** 2d6, x4, 100 ft., misfire 1-2, capacity 20/30/40, 20 lbs., B+P, automatic, swift action to load
Maxim M1910 Machine Gun** 2d8, x4, 120 ft., misfire 1-2, capacity 250, 140 lbs., B+P, automatic, usually mounted but if it isn't -4 penalty on attack rolls and knocked prone after firing due to recoil, has a shield that provides cover to firer, if aided by a loader get a +2 bonus on next attack roll
Mosin-Nagant M1891 Rifle** 1d10, x4, 80 ft., misfire 1, capacity 5, 9 lbs., B+P, move action to load
Nagant M1895 Revolver** 1d8, x4, 80 ft., misfire 1, capacity 7, 4 lbs., B+P, move action to load
Pepperbox Rifle* 1d10, x4, 80 ft., misfire 1-2, capacity 4, 15 lbs., B+P, move action to load
Revolver* 1d8, x4, 20 ft., misfire 1, capacity 6, 4 lbs., B+P, move action to load
Rifle* 1d10, x4, 80 ft., misfire 1, capacity 1, 12 lbs., B+P, move action to load
Shotgun* 1d8, x2, 80 ft., misfire 1-2, capacity 1, 12 lbs., B+P, scatter, move action to load

Automatic Weapon Quality A weapon with the automatic weapon quality fires a burst of bullets with a single pull of the trigger, attacking all creatures in a line. This line starts from any corner of your space and extends to the limit of the weapon's range or until it strikes a barrier it cannot penetrate. When an automatic weapon attacks all creatures in a line, it makes a separate attack roll against each creature in the line. Each creature in the line can only be attacked with one bullet from each burst. Each attack roll takes a -2 penalty to account for recoil, and its attack damage cannot be modified by precision damage or damage-increasing feats such as Vital Strike. Effects that grant concealment, such as fog or smoke, or the blur, invisibility, or mirror image spells, do not foil an automatic weapon's line attack. If any of the attack rolls threaten a critical hit, confirm the critical for that attack roll alone. An automatic weapon misfires only if all of the attack rolls made misfire. A single attack with an automatic weapon fires 10 bullets. An automatic weapon cannot fire single bullets that target one creature. When taking a full-attack action with an automatic weapon, you can fire as many bursts in a round as you have attacks.

Scatter Weapon Quality A weapon with the scatter weapon quality can shoot two different types of ammunition. It can fire normal bullets that target one creature, or it can make a scattering shot, attacking all creatures within a cone. Cannons with the scatter weapon quality only fire grapeshot, unless their descriptions state otherwise. When a scatter weapon attacks all creatures within a cone, it makes a separate attack roll against each creature within the cone. Each attack roll takes a –2 penalty, and its attack damage cannot be modified by precision damage or damage-increasing feats such as Vital Strike. Effects that grant concealment, such as fog or smoke, or the blur, invisibility, or mirror image spells, do not foil a scatter attack. If any of the attack rolls threaten a critical, confirm the critical for that attack roll alone. A firearm that makes a scatter shot misfires only if all of the attack rolls made misfire. If a scatter weapon explodes on a misfire, it deals triple its damage to all creatures within the misfire radius.

* Ultimate Combat
** Reign of Winter, Part 5: Rasputin Must Die

Using these stats as the comparative basis, and bearing in mind that the Reign of Winter guns are all World War I era and the Ultimate Combat guns are all earrrrlly versions of those sorts of guns, I need present day versions of the following:

Assault Rifle
Bazooka
Flamethrower
Grenade Launcher
Handgun
Machine Gun
Pump Action Shotgun
Sniper Rifle
Uzi

And really any other common modern handheld weapon I might be missing. What sorts of guns are modern day gangsters, mercenaries, and militaries using?

I feel like the fundamentals are all designed by Paizo already. What I need to know are how modern guns compare to these early guns. Does a modern handgun do more damage than a World War I revolver? Does it have more accurate range? Etc. If those of you with extensive real world gun knowledge could help me tweak all these numbers to get stats for modern weapons, I'd really appreciate it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Ultimate Equipment has the Revolver, Shotgun, Rifle, Double-barreled Shotgun, and Pepperbox Rifle stats.

Reign of Winter #5: "Rasputin Must Die!" has the Aasen mortar, Gas cylinder, Hotchkiss 6 pounder, Lawrence 1917 flamethrower, Lawrence 1917 flamethrower fuel tank, M1914 grenade (concussion), M1914 grenade (fragmentation), M1917 chemical grenade, Madsen light machine gun, Maxim M1910 machine gun, Mosin-Nagant M1891 rifle, and Nagant M1895 revolver stats.

Silver Crusade

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Ultimate Equipment has the Revolver, Shotgun, Rifle, Double-barreled Shotgun, and Pepperbox Rifle stats.

Reign of Winter #5: "Rasputin Must Die!" has the Aasen mortar, Gas cylinder, Hotchkiss 6 pounder, Lawrence 1917 flamethrower, Lawrence 1917 flamethrower fuel tank, M1914 grenade (concussion), M1914 grenade (fragmentation), M1917 chemical grenade, Madsen light machine gun, Maxim M1910 machine gun, Mosin-Nagant M1891 rifle, and Nagant M1895 revolver stats.

Are any of those on the SRD or anywhere else? I've been interested to see them myself.


One of the best sources for modern guns that I've seen for the d20 system is the Spycraft Modern Arms Guide. It would take a little bit of conversion to make it work with pathfinder since Spycraft uses an action dice system for activating critical failures/successes and it doesn't use crit multipliers.

But as a reference for modern guns its hard to beat, if you can find a copy I'd definitely recommend checking it out.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

I would suggest checking out d20 Modern's gun stats and convert to Pathfinder, most notably improving their critical multiplier to x4. You can also of course ignore weapon size.

Dark Archive

N. Jolly wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Ultimate Equipment has the Revolver, Shotgun, Rifle, Double-barreled Shotgun, and Pepperbox Rifle stats.

Reign of Winter #5: "Rasputin Must Die!" has the Aasen mortar, Gas cylinder, Hotchkiss 6 pounder, Lawrence 1917 flamethrower, Lawrence 1917 flamethrower fuel tank, M1914 grenade (concussion), M1914 grenade (fragmentation), M1917 chemical grenade, Madsen light machine gun, Maxim M1910 machine gun, Mosin-Nagant M1891 rifle, and Nagant M1895 revolver stats.

Are any of those on the SRD or anywhere else? I've been interested to see them myself.

Most of them are in the original post of this thread! (: I've seen all those.

What I want to know is how those compare to today's weapons so I can put together more appropriate stats. Does a modern handheld machine gun shoot as far as the clunkier Madsen and Maxims, and is it more likely to use some combination of "scatter" and "automatic" since it's handheld and people tend to spray more with it? Are modern handguns doing more damage than early ones? Do they have the same range? How do modern assault rifles and sniper rifles compare to these guns? Does being semi-automatic mean it should be able to switch between using "automatic" and not? Etc.

I just don't know anything about real or historical weaponry and I can't build stats without knowing how modern guns compare to their recent predecessors.


Semi-automatic means it fires one bullet per pull of the trigger. Automatic means it fires multiple bullets with one pull of the trigger.

This is of course based on the idea that your fire arms are autoloading, meaning that the recoil forces or gas pressure from the fired shot force the slide or action back allowing a new round to be chambered from the spring loaded magazine on the gun.

How far a gun can shoot accurately is a function of the bullet (especially it's powder load, shape, and size), the barrel (especially it's rifling and length), and most importantly the shooter. None of these aspects are easy to represent accurately within a game like Pathfinder, or really any D20 game. Better to categorize things into pistol, rifles, sub-machine guns, etc to determine range and damage.

Honestly, I wouldn't really suggest introducing newer and more powerful guns unless everyone in the party is using guns instead of melee or other ranged weapons. Otherwise the other players are going to be quickly left behind by those who are receiving the weapon upgrade.


Benn Roe wrote:


Most of them are in the original post of this thread! (: I've seen all those.

What I want to know is how those compare to today's weapons so I can put together more appropriate stats. Does a modern handheld machine gun shoot as far as the clunkier Madsen and Maxims, and is it more likely to use some combination of "scatter" and "automatic" since it's handheld and people tend to spray more with it?

Honestly, most modern machineguns really aren't that different. There is a fair amount of variation of course since there's a lot of different models out there. However d20 is not really all that fine grained, so differentiating between them all is really not worth a lot of trouble

I will say their automatic weapon rules are pretty damned awful though.

I run a Pulp era campaign, and while it is d20 we made up our own automatic fire rules. We treat them as area attacks where you have to make a reflex save. The DC is set by the BAB of the shooter, the amount of rounds fire, and other considerations (I can send you the rules if you care).

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Are modern handguns doing more damage than early ones?

This very much depends on the gun. However it should be clear that most of the very popular calibers already existed by WW 1 (the exceptions would be .357 magnum, .44 magnum, .40 S&W). But by and large the rounds from then would be about the same the rounds from now (.357 and .44 magnum would be hotter revolvers so adjust the damage die up).

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Do they have the same range?

Again, the ammunition has not changed, so not so much. Range on handguns will always be limited more by barrel length than anything (again, see above exceptions for modern magnum rounds).

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How do modern assault rifles and sniper rifles compare to these guns?

Now assault rifles are a pretty new tech (first ones cropped up in WW 2). They generally shoot a lighter rifle cartridge then those of WW 1, but also have the option of full auto or 3 round burst. Because the cartridge is lighter, recoil is less, and ammo capacity is generally larger.

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Does being semi-automatic mean it should be able to switch between using "automatic" and not?

Semi-auto means that the weapon loads a new shot with each trigger pull. It does not imply automatic fire. It would take some detail to explain why this is different than a revolver, so just assume they are functionally the same except semi-auto weapons have removable magazines and thus can be reloaded faster.

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I just don't know anything about real or historical weaponry and I can't build stats without knowing how modern guns compare to their recent predecessors.

I will compare weapons of WW 1 with current era weapons by category.

A) Handguns
The most common semi-auto calibers are still the most common ones now. Those are the 9mm Parabellum and the .45 ACP. Nowadays there is a lot of variety in the handguns, with higher reliability, and better magazine capacity. Back in WW 1 they didn't have the ubiquitous double stack 9mm of the modern era. Thus the 9mm Luger held only 8 rounds vs. the 15 rounds of most common 9mms. The .45s haven't changed too much in capacity (1911 held 8, and modern .45s hold around that or maybe 10, with some special exceptions doing up to 12. In revolvers, better metallurgy has lead to the introduction of the magnum calibers. These mean you get a much faster bullet, so a lot more muzzle energy. The common magnums are the .357 magnum (from the 30s) and the .44 Magnum (50s I believe). In more recent years there have been even more powerful revolver cartridges introduced, but they are fairly uncommon and verge on silly with their power (.454 Casull, .460 Ruger, and .500 S&W Magnum).

B) Rifles - in the WW 1 era every battle rifle was a bolt action firing a fairly high powered round (lethal to 500m). The rate of fire isn't amazingly high, but a trained shooter can churn out the lead pretty fast. Nowadays (almost)all militaries use assault rifles, which are select fire weapons (capable of semi-auto, 3 round burst, or full auto). They all use a weaker rifle cartridge designed for lower recoil and lighter ammo. Range is generally lower than on the bolt actions of yore.

C) Shotguns
Shotguns now have magnum shells, which do increase range and damage. The calibers haven't really changed much (you don't see 8 gauge and 10 gauge is pretty rare). While semi-auto shotguns did exist in that era (John Browning of course), they were uncommon. Nowadays there are some fairly fancy semi-auto large capacity shotguns out there (large capacity being maybe 10 rounds).

D) Submachineguns- these were in their infancy during WW 1, with models barely appearing the battlefield towards the end of the way. They did not get to their heyday until WW 2. I would actually say in the modern days subguns are on the way out with assault carbines, and bullpups crowding them out some. Submachineguns are generally like other machineguns, but fire pistol cartridges. You can spray and pray with them, but this is mostly a waste of ammo. Proficient users generally use controlled bursts of 3-5 rounds at a time.

E) Machineguns - I wouldn't really say there is much difference in machineguns for the receiving end between then and now. The rate of fire and caliber used by medium machinegun hasn't changed much (MG 42 was an exception with it's crazy high rate of fire, but I don't think anybody does that anymore). Mostly their mobility, mounts, and reliability will have been improved. There are also different sorts of light machineguns which shoot assault rifle cartridges.

F) Flamethrowers - not used anymore for a variety of reasons.

G) Artillery- complicated. Lots of man portable devices now for engaging heavy targets. RPGs, LAWs, Javelin, Milan, Recoilless Rifle, etc. That's a complicated subject.

Dark Archive

I appreciate that very in depth response, and I'll try to do my best to translate that into stats and run them by you here. I'd definitely be interested in seeing your alternate automatic rules if you don't mind.

And as for power level concerns, this isn't for a campaign. It's for a team PvP pit battle using X-Men characters. Nobody ever levels up and everyone has 3 to 5 HD, so full attacking guns won't be an issue. Playtesting so far has shown that characters like Domino who rely entirely on guns aren't good enough because the existing gun stats don't mirror the types of guns she'd be using. And some of the more ludicrous guns are for Deadpool's random d10 table that needs to be rolled on at the beginning of each fight to see which over-the-top piece of equipment he brings with him (hence my interest in bazookas and flame throwers). I'm being careful, and I'm happy to scale guns back if the new stats prove to be too good, but right now they're definitely not strong enough so I'm turning to the real world to improve them.


OK, this is from Serial Pulp, which is a living campaign we run in the Denver area. It uses a modified Spycraft 1.0 rule set. The machinegun rules we worked up ourself since the Spycraft ones weren't great (not as bad as the apparent Pathfinder ones, but bad nonetheless). Easiest way for me to list them is to provide the feats.

Without the feats we keep the total shots per round down to 10 since on an unfamiliar user a machinegun can run away on you.

Basically it is you take the number of shots and that is the DC of the reflex save. If you have the feats, that number increases with BAB and a fixed value. For each 5(or 4 with the feat) by which you miss the save, you are hit. So if the DC is (assume machinegun expert) 25, and you roll a 14, you take 3 hits from the gun.

Machine Gunner
You are skilled at using automatic weapons.
Prerequisites: Weapon Group Proficiency (Rifles), base attack bonus +1 or higher.
Benefit: You may use autofiring capability of weapons in the Rifle Weapon Group more effectively. You may effectively fire up to 20 shots per round when autofiring or strafing. The DCs of your autofire attacks are also 5 + ½ BAB + the number of shots fired into the 5-foot square. Also, the number of hits resulting from a failed save is determined by each 4 points by which the save was failed.
Normal: You may only fire 10 shots per round in autofire mode and the DC for the Reflex save the number of rounds fired into the 5-foot square. The number of hits is equal to how many increments of 5 by which the save was missed.
Special: Soldiers receive this feat for free at first level.

Machine Gun Expert
You are an expert at using automatic weapons.
Prerequisites: Machine Gunner, base attack bonus +8 or higher.
Benefit: You may use autofiring capability of weapons in the Rifle Weapon Group to maximum effect. You may fire up to 60 shots per round (or your remaining magazine, whichever is lower) into a given 5-foot square when autofiring or strafing. The DCs of your autofire attacks are also 10 +1/2 BAB + the number of shots fired into the 5 ft square.
Normal: You may only fire 10 shots per round in autofire mode and the DC for the Reflex save the number of rounds fired into the 5-foot square.


Im hela-dotting this thread. Is there a feat that lets me confirm criticals by turning my gun sideways ;)


I'm pretty sure that would guarantee no confirm in any game I ran (if I even let you hit at all).


Aren't there some examples of modern guns for Pathfinder in "Rasputin Must Die"?


Those are listed in the OP, but are not modern guns. They are WW 1 era.


The difference between being hit by a bullet from a Maxim and any other MG isn't very much. Calibers are the same today as they were back then.

Just some food for thought. Since these are in an official Pathfinder product they should give you a good ballpark for anything modern.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Modern guns simply don't fit in a fantasy game. Ultimate Combat does have stats for weapons up to the Colt Revolver which should be the highest one aims for.


Democratus wrote:

The difference between being hit by a bullet from a Maxim and any other MG isn't very much. Calibers are the same today as they were back then.

Yes, I already covered all that.

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Just some food for thought. Since these are in an official Pathfinder product they should give you a good ballpark for anything modern.

Honestly I don't think the Pathfinder people deal with guns terribly well. The listed automatic fire rules are simply awful.


drbuzzard wrote:
I'm pretty sure that would guarantee no confirm in any game I ran (if I even let you hit at all).

...not sure if you knew I was kidding or not.


+5 Toaster wrote:
drbuzzard wrote:
I'm pretty sure that would guarantee no confirm in any game I ran (if I even let you hit at all).
...not sure if you knew I was kidding or not.

Oh I figured you were. I'm just an old grump however.


LazarX wrote:
Modern guns simply don't fit in a fantasy game. Ultimate Combat does have stats for weapons up to the Colt Revolver which should be the highest one aims for.

I disagree.


Vamptastic wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Modern guns simply don't fit in a fantasy game. Ultimate Combat does have stats for weapons up to the Colt Revolver which should be the highest one aims for.
I disagree.

I agree with you Vamptastic. And what a weird comment. OP is looking for advice on stating modern guns/established modern gun stats and someone tells them that modern guns don't belong in fantasy?

That would be like me going into a monk optimization thread and telling people that I don't think monks belong in fantasy.

Anyway, dotting this thread as I have two 1920s games in the works (one Cthulhu and one inspired by American horror films); some perspective on gun stats would be useful.


So I'm left wondering if The Dresden Files counts as fantasy. I'm pretty sure it does.

As I recall Murphy uses a FN P90 in the series. That's about as modern a gun as it gets.

Of course there is a game directly tied to that series, but if you don't happen to like those mechanics and want to try the world using Pathfinder Rules, I don't see why not.

Lantern Lodge

Another source of modern (and futuristic) firearms is the Starfarer's Handbook for the Dragonstar campaign setting by Fantasy Flight. If you can find this book, it has a variety of modern weapons, including assault rifles, grenades, and modern-style bows and crossbows.

The rules for burst-firing, sprays, and suppression I found to be simple and fun; without being broken (the energy weapons are another matter). They build of the old 3.0 SRD; so there should be little if any need to convert. It also has a lot of feats for gunplay. The ranges are considerably longer than the ranges in UC. You could attribute this to rifling and other technological breakthroughs.

Yes, it is aimed at space opera-type roleplaying, but the slug-thrower presented should have the basic framework for 20th/21st century firearms that you are looking for.

I hope this helps.


Sorry for the slight necro, but I was just about to ask questions similar to this anyhoo.

As for ranges listed in the OP, for the Nagant pistol, would that be the max range or first range increment? Not saying its super accurate, but Wikipedia puts the effective range of a Nagant pistol at 50 yards, or bout 150 feet. If we brought it back down to rules for advanced guns compared to starters, you'd get a range 20 with max of what 200? which sounds potentially closer.

The d20 modern stuff puts pistols around 20-40 for range increment.

Dark Archive

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I picked up this project again, and these are the stats I've come up with. Critiques? Corrections? Again, I'm no gun-expert. Given that Paizo already has rules for automatic weapons--awful though they may be--I'm going to use them, just for simplicity and consistency's sake. That said, how do my numbers look?

Bazooka: two-handed weapon, 6d6 fire, x2 crit, 150 ft. range increment, 10 lbs. loaded, 6 lbs. unloaded

When a bazooka hits, it explodes in 30-foot-radius burst from its point of impact. A creature hit directly takes 6d6 points of fire damage and must succeed at a DC 25 Reflex save or catch fire, taking an additional 2d6 points of damage each round until the flames are extinguished. A burning creature can attempt a new save as a full-round action, and dropping and rolling on the ground grants a +2 bonus on this save. Other creatures caught in the burst also take 6d6 points of fire damage, but may attempt a DC 25 Reflex saving throw to take half damage. A bazooka can be targeted at a grid intersection like a splash weapon. Likewise, a bazooka scatters on a miss exactly like a splash weapon. A bazooka’s rockets are loaded as a full-round action.

Double-Barreled Shotgun: one-handed weapon, 1d10 bludgeoning and piercing, x2 crit, 60 ft. range increment, misfire 1-2, capacity 2, scatter, 10 lbs.

Flamethrower: as WWI flamethrower from Reign of Winter

Handgun: one-handed weapon, 1d10 bludgeoning and piercing, x4 crit, 80 ft. range increment, misfire 1, capacity 15, 4 lbs.

Sniper Rifle: two-handed weapon, 1d10 bludgeoning and piercing, 18-20/x4 crit, 400 ft. range increment, misfire 1, capacity 5, fired as full-round action, 12 lbs.

UZI: one-handed weapon, 2d6 bludgeoning and piercing, x4 crit, 100 ft. range increment, misfire 1, capacity 50, automatic, 8 lbs.

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