What happens if you crit while using Furious Finish?

[prototype00]

So critical hits means you roll damage again, but what if there was no damage to roll, as in the case of Furious Finish (where the damage is just maximized)? What do you do about extra damage then?

prototype00

[Heymitch]

PFSRD wrote:

Furious Finish

You channel all of your rage into one massive blow to crush your enemy.

Prerequisite: Rage class feature, Vital Strike, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: While raging, when you use the Vital Strike feat, you can choose not to roll your damage dice and instead deal damage equal to the maximum roll possible on those damage dice. If you do, your rage immediately ends, and you are fatigued (even if you would not normally be).

If you critical, you don't roll your damage, so...

If you do 1d12+15(x3) with your great axe (for example), that would be also be an additional 1d12 damage on a Vital Strike.

So you would deal (12+15) x 3 = 81 + 12 (for Vital Strike) = 93 points of damage.

At least that's how I'd read it.

[Kazaan]

I'd say the extra damage from Crit is also maximized. To illustrate, if your weapon does 1d8 damage, you use Furious Finish, and it crits, you'd do 24 damage; 8 from the base weapon damage, 8 more from the vital strike bonus, and 8 more from the crit bonus.

[Aelryinth]

Furious Finish doesn't include critical damage any more then Vital Strike does.

Your critical strike damage is rolled normally. Note it says right there in the feat "you may choose not to roll your damage dice/on those damage dice" referring to the dice of the Vital Strike.

Vital Strike specifically lays out that it has no effect on crits, and Furious Finish affects only Vital Strikes.

=+Aelryinth

[Quandary]

It refers to 'your damage dice' and 'those damage dice' (referring to the first reference) but that doesn't clearly exclude critical damage or otherwise refer to solely vital strike's additional damage dice. Vital Strike isn't affecting your crit damage, but that is still "your damage dice" you are dealing, just as much as the base weapon damage is... Those would certainly be 'your damage dice' when you are not using vital strike, and using vital strike does not remove that categorization. I think it applies to all damage dice (including flaming/flaming burst/channel smite/etc).

If I was asked about intent, I might say it is plausible that it intends only the base weapon damage plus vital strike damage, i.e. all the damage dice inherently associated with usage of vital strike (excluding crit and flaming/channel smite/etc), but I don't get that from RAW.

[Kazaan]

More like it lays out that Crits have no effect on the "extra" dice from Vital Strike. Furious Finish states that you can, at your option, maximize "your damage dice". You have your base damage dice, the "bonus" damage dice from vital strike, and the "bonus" damage dice from a critical hit. Nothing in Furious Finish says that critical damage dice aren't included. If it only affects Vital Strike, that would mean that only the bonus dice specifically from Vital Strike are maximized and not the base damage dice of the weapon. In that case, a 1d8 weapon, on a non-crit Furious Finish would deal 1d8 + 8 damage (roll base weapon damage and maximize vital strike bonus dice only). I, however, don't think that's the case so the only other logical option is that it affects all applicable damage dice, including the base damage dice, vital strike bonus dice, and crit bonus dice.

@Heymitch: That's not how you roll criticals. If you have 1d12 +15 x3 crit, you don't roll 1d12 and then multiply the result by 3; you actually roll 3d12.

[HangarFlying]

Kazaan wrote:

@Heymitch: That's not how you roll criticals. If you have 1d12 +15 x3 crit, you don't roll 1d12 and then multiply the result by 3; you actually roll 3d12.

I think his point was that in the case of furious finish, you don't roll the dice, you just take the max die amount three times (hence 12x3).

[HangarFlying]

Aelryinth wrote:

Furious Finish doesn't include critical damage any more then Vital Strike does.

Your critical strike damage is rolled normally. Note it says right there in the feat "you may choose not to roll your damage dice/on those damage dice" referring to the dice of the Vital Strike.

Vital Strike specifically lays out that it has no effect on crits, and Furious Finish affects only Vital Strikes.

=+Aelryinth

Maybe I'm reading a different Vital Strike feat than you are, but you still get the extra damage die upon a critical hit, it's just not multiplied. Or perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are saying.

[prototype00]

So general consensus seems to be the critical dice is maxed as well? Interesting.

prototype00

[Booksy]

Lets look at an example with a +1 Holy Flaming Heavy Crossbow.

Your damage using Vital Strike (vs your evil foe) is

(1d10+1) +1d6 Fire +2d6 Holy +1d10 Vital Strike

so using Furious Finish should be

22 + 6 Fire + 12 Holy + 10 Vital Strike = 50 total

Later you could also take Devastating Strike to up your critical damage.

[Aelryinth]

Critical die rolls are not included unless they specifically say they are.

Ditto sneak attack dice. By the general interpretation of 'not excluded unless mentioned', your sneak attack dice would be maximized here, as well. No, that's not what happens. Sneak attack dice are not 'part' of a Vital Strike's mechanics, any more then crits are. They are both 'after the fact' and completely independent of the Vital Strike.

Furious Finish is a Vital Strike chain feat. It enhances the power of the Vital Strike. Criticals are not subject to Vital Strike, they just add on normally. As Furious Finish doesn't mention criticals, and specifically refers back to the dice of the Vital Strike, it does not include criticals in the maximizing.

I'm frankly rather astonished people can ignore both the intent of the feat and the language there, and go right back to "if it isn't excluded, it's included" as a reason for this.

==Aelryinth

[Quandary]

Nobody is ignoring the text, they're quoting it and not finding a specific reference to VS dice.

[Kazaan]

Aelryinth wrote:

Critical die rolls are not included unless they specifically say they are.

Ditto sneak attack dice. By the general interpretation of 'not excluded unless mentioned', your sneak attack dice would be maximized here, as well. No, that's not what happens. Sneak attack dice are not 'part' of a Vital Strike's mechanics, any more then crits are. They are both 'after the fact' and completely independent of the Vital Strike.

Furious Finish is a Vital Strike chain feat. It enhances the power of the Vital Strike. Criticals are not subject to Vital Strike, they just add on normally. As Furious Finish doesn't mention criticals, and specifically refers back to the dice of the Vital Strike, it does not include criticals in the maximizing.

I'm frankly rather astonished people can ignore both the intent of the feat and the language there, and go right back to "if it isn't excluded, it's included" as a reason for this.

==Aelryinth

So, basically, you're saying that if someone has a 1d8 weapon and uses Furious Finish, they roll 1d8 for the base weapon damage then maximize the Vital Strike bonus to 8?

[Gilfalas]

prototype00 wrote:

So critical hits means you roll damage again, but what if there was no damage to roll, as in the case of Furious Finish (where the damage is just maximized)? What do you do about extra damage then?

prototype00

I think you should treat it like a maximised spell that also has empower. The Furious Finish does max damage. That is a single iteration of the crit multiplier of the weapon. Then roll weapon damage for the remaining iterations of the crit value as normal.

So, for example, if your using a greataxe which does x3 crit you would get 1 part maximum damage and 2 parts rolled damage as normal which will total your 3x crit multiplier. The Vital Strike covers the first '1', the rolled damage will be the other '2' as normal.

To be exact, taking the Greataxe again as a crit:
'1' - 24 points of damage from Vital Strike with Furious Finish
'2' - 2d12 from crit damage.

Add 3 times any static pluses on damage as normal for the crit since Vital Strike and Furious Finish never alters that in any case.

[Booksy]

@Aelryinth - no one is ignoring the wordings of the feats in question.

Vital Strike adds extra damage dice based upon the base damage of the weapon, it specifies they are unaffected by a critical hit.

Furious Finish automatically maximizes your damage dice. It says nothing about only effecting Vital Strike damage dice.

I stand by my formula of [Base Damage + mods effected by Crits] + additional damage + Vital Strike damage, and maxing all the dice you roll for damage with Furious Focus.

[Aelryinth]

The feat specifically refers back to the Vital Strike. The dice being referred to are the dice of the Vital Strike, not 'any dice that you could possibly roll for damage.'

Crits are not part of a Vital Strike. They just get added on at the end.

If you use this, are your Sneak Attack dice maximized? The energy damage from your freezing thundering impact flaming burst weapon? From Holy? From the quickened Shocking Grasp you let go at the same time?

Those are all 'damage dice' under your example. All get added on AFTER the Vital Strike is calculated. Are you maxing those out, too?

Looking at the feat, I'd say emphatically not. But under your interpretation, they definitely would.

==Aelryinth