|
| 42 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the errata. 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
According to the recent FAQ on Halflings and reloading slings...
Halfling, Warslinger: What kind of slings does the this reload ability work with?
The warslinger ability says, "Halflings with this racial trait can reload a sling as a free action." It doesn't say "any type of sling" or "all slings," just "a sling." The ability only affects standard slings, not halfling sling staffs or any other kind of sling.
...it is clear that the PDT meant one type of sling.
But if you take a look at the Musket Master's 1st level class feature...
Rapid Reloader: At 1st level, a musket master gains Rapid Reload (muskets) as a bonus feat.
...and then take a look at Rapid Reload...
Rapid Reload (Combat)
Choose a type of crossbow (hand, light, heavy) or a single type of one-handed or two-handed firearm that you are proficient with. You can reload such a weapon quickly.
Prerequisites: Weapon Proficiency (crossbow type chosen) or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (firearm).
Benefit: The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow), a move action (for heavy crossbow or one-handed firearm), or a standard action (two-handed firearm). Reloading a crossbow or firearm still provokes attacks of opportunity.
Normal: A character without this feat needs a move action to reload a hand or light crossbow, a standard action to reload a one-handed firearm, or a full-round action to load a heavy crossbow or a two-handed firearm.
Special: You can gain Rapid Reload multiple times. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of crossbow or a new type of firearm.
...you'll notice the class feature says "muskets", not "musket", but normally when you take the feat you may only choose one type of firearm to gain its benefits.
QUESTION: Does the Musket Master's Rapid Reloader class feature grant the benefits of the Rapid Reload feat to all types of muskets, or just the base musket?
| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Personally I'd say only "real" muskets, not the double barrel, axe or warhammer muskets.
All the other two-handed firearms aren't named muskets, so they're out as well.
I could see it being ruled differently though.
If someone were to only use a single barrel on a double barreled musket, I'd let it apply, but you can't reload both barrels as a free action.
That's how i'd rule it, others might do it differently.
If Rapid Reload applies to the double barreled musket, then they can be reloaded as free.
The premise of my statement that you quoted there was that I'd not let it apply to it, not the free one from Musket Master anyway.
I would think that it refers only to the plain Musket. In my opinion, if it were intended to apply to all musket varieties, effectively functioning like no other usage of Rapid Reload, it would be a little more explicit, perhaps saying "The Gunslinger gains Rapid Reload for all firearms with Musket in the name", or something similar. If it is for types of muskets, what exactly is a type of musket, and what isn't? Naturally, the Musket, and Double-barreled Musket would fall into that category, but would the Axe Musket, and Warhammer Musket, being also melee weapons? What about the Double hackbut? It's effectively a Musket on a stand. If we assume only the ones with musket in the name, that still gives the Musket Master an effective 4 bonus feats. Does that really seem in line with the other archetypes, and the gunslinger in general?
F.A.Q.'d nonetheless.
My opinion: It would affect only the musket, not any variation. Otherwise it would be granting you the equivalent of multiple feats as a 1st level class feature.
If it was only the plain musket why would it be plural?......actually no......Because that is like saying if I can reload a bow using this then I can reload a crossbow and that is wrong. So then we have a majority and it seems concluded then? Wasted pizza example:'(
The problem is that Rapid Reload doesn't affect a class of weapons, it affects individual weapons. In order for it to affect all muskets it'd be granting the equivalent of four feats - way too powerful for a 1st level class feature (in my opinion).
Not really because you can't get all of those muskets or any of besides your starter till 3rd level, and you can only use a musket one at a time the weapon cord stuff wouldn't really work with these so your still going to have the same results either way.
That's wholly dependent on the GM. A GM can (if he so chooses) start you with 10,000 gold. Unlikely, but possible.
Even at that point it does still matter, because you've just saved yourself 3 feats. That's huge.
|
|
Actually, killzabit's last post made me realize something:
At 1st level, a gunslinger gains one of the following firearms of her choice: blunderbuss, musket, or pistol.
Your starter gun can be either a blunderbuss, musket, or pistol. If you believe that the Rapid Reloader class feature applies to all types of muskets, rather than just the base "musket", are you also of the belief that you could choose a double barreled musket as your starter gun? It's just a type of musket, after all...
Actually, killzabit's last post made me realize something:
At 1st level, a gunslinger gains one of the following firearms of her choice: blunderbuss, musket, or pistol.Your starter gun can be either a blunderbuss, musket, or pistol. If you believe that the Rapid Reloader class feature applies to all types of muskets, rather than just the base "musket", are you also of the belief that you could choose a double barreled musket as your starter gun? It's just a type of musket, after all...
Eh, to be fair, I'd say that's not quite the same thing. The starting weapon is explicitly stated to be one of three specific firearms. It doesn't say you get a "type of musket," as you mention, but specifically a simple, run-of-the-mill musket. It's the lack of explicitness that's the problem with Rapid Reloader. I still think Rapid Reloader only applies to plain muskets, mind you, I just wanted to weigh in on that.
dot
|
You have unlimited free actions in society play
You'll have to point me to that rule because I do not remember seeing that anywhere, luckily I haven't had a player try so many free actions in one round to make me say "no, you can't do that"
Actually, killzabit's last post made me realize something:
At 1st level, a gunslinger gains one of the following firearms of her choice: blunderbuss, musket, or pistol.Your starter gun can be either a blunderbuss, musket, or pistol. If you believe that the Rapid Reloader class feature applies to all types of muskets, rather than just the base "musket", are you also of the belief that you could choose a double barreled musket as your starter gun? It's just a type of musket, after all...
You must have missed this part
Gunsmith: A musket master must take a musket when she chooses a battered firearm at 1st level.
Anyway as for the main point of the thread. I'm leaning towards you only get rapid reload (musket), the s could very easily be a typo. If you're getting rapid reload for any fire arm containing the word musket then that's 4 free feats at level one.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Maybe its plural because there is more than one (plain) musket in the world.
I'm in the works with plain musket only.
|
|
You have unlimited free actions in society playYou'll have to point me to that rule because I do not remember seeing that anywhere, luckily I haven't had a player try so many free actions in one round to make me say "no, you can't do that"
Actually, killzabit's last post made me realize something:
At 1st level, a gunslinger gains one of the following firearms of her choice: blunderbuss, musket, or pistol.Your starter gun can be either a blunderbuss, musket, or pistol. If you believe that the Rapid Reloader class feature applies to all types of muskets, rather than just the base "musket", are you also of the belief that you could choose a double barreled musket as your starter gun? It's just a type of musket, after all...You must have missed this part
Gunsmith: A musket master must take a musket when she chooses a battered firearm at 1st level.
I was stating that for argument's sake, pointing out that if people claim the Rapid Reloader class feature means all types of muskets, why not use that same logic for the Gunslinger's starting gun (or musket, in case of the Musket Master).
Count so far:
Musket Only: 6
All Types: 2
Design Manager
|
I also am feeling pretty sure that the Rapid Reload (muskets) ability of the Musket Master is only intended for Musket(s), not Axe Muskets, Double-Barreled Muskets, etc.
They make a pretty big point of calling out that each weapon is its own individual type, and I feel like if they wanted it to apply to multiple types of firearms it would have been Rapid Reload (two handed firearms) or something to that effect.
I think both. Because you suddenly dont forget how to load a musket because they added anoter barrel.
And the wording of the description "This is a musket with two barrels"
So it is just a muskey
Personally I would say that the term "muskets" here refers directly to the only weapon with the title of musket.... not double barreled or any other variant.
Why the plural? Because if it said "a musket" or "one musket" then it would imply a singular musket. For example a gunslinger can own two muskets. He could apply rapid reload to both of them or whichever he was weilding at the time.
I would come to the same conclusion with halflings and slings. Proficiency with daggers would not give proficiency with punching daggers nor with a very similar weapon such as a kukri. When something is specific assume it is specific.
While on the one hand, the process to reload a double barreled musket isn't any different from reloading a single barrel musket, you just have to do it twice.
On the other hand, reloading a musket once should be way longer than six seconds anyway.
So, since its a game, lets just go with the game's rules. The rules say Rapid Reload only applies to one chosen one or two handed firearm, so just plain old musket is all you get.
In my opinion, it's not unbalancing to allow a musket master to apply his rapid reload to both a plain musket and a double-barrelled one. It's not a free action (until higher level gun training and cartridges are used) so you'd only get to reload one barrel and fire it per round, so after the first round they are identical in use.
One of the key points about muskets in the real world was that they were easier to learn how to use than bows and probably crossbows too.
|
|
That puts us up to...
Base Musket only: 11
All Musket types: 5 (counting Gilarius?)
If the Design Team is reading this, and happens to be considering responding with the "No response necessary" line that they love so much, I'll just assume they mean that the side with the most votes at that time is their verdict.
Just the base musket, for reasons already stated.
Seeing how u have to chose a plain musket at lvl 1 and u gain this at lvl 1, I'm gonna have yo agree that its just cor the base musket.
Base musket only
|
I think because the two barrel variety does say it is a musket; i.e. as if "musket" was a sub classification of two handed firearms, then it would apply to all sub class of muskets.
kinda like bludgeoner feat, where it changes the damage of any bludgeoning sub class of weapon.
And if it was ruled that it is different, I don't see why you couldn't take the double barrel option as your starting feat. You couldn't use it until you actually purchased the double variety, but you'd still have the feat for that weapon even though I start with a single barrel variety.
Or could you retrain it just to avoid this mess?
|
I think because the two barrel variety does say it is a musket; i.e. as if "musket" was a sub classification of two handed firearms, then it would apply to all sub class of muskets.
There is a logical problem with this. If, for example, someone could get a feat called Rapid Reload (pistols) your logic would mean they could use it on ALL pistols, including things like dragon pistols and sword pistols who obviously don't function the same way as a standard pistol. This is even more illogical when you consider that Rapid Reload (pistols) would give you the ability to rapidly reload the pistol version of a scattershot weapon (Dragon Pistol) but Rapid Reload (muskets) would not give you the ability to rapidly reload the musket version of a scattershot weapon (Blunderbuss).
Except, Bludgeoner does not affect a "sub class" of weapons. It affects weapons that deal lethal, bludgeoning damage. This is a crucial difference. No where is the term "sub class" defined in the rules, exce[pt possibly fighter weapons groups, but that's irrelevant to this discussion. Blundgeoner specifically calls out the exact weapons it works with: Does it deal bludgeoning damage? Does it deal lethal damage? If yes to both, the feat as applicable. The Musket Master line is not as specific, hence this thread.
I still stand by my earlier statement of saying it should only apply to regular muskets. Giving effectively 4 bonus feats (Musket, Double-Barreled, Axe, and Warhammer. Why should the last two be excluded? The descriptions start with "This musket," just like the double-barreled), is very clearly not RAI, if not RAW.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Id like to point out that loading a light crossbow is incredibly similar to loading a heavy crossbow, but there is still no option to take Rapid Reload for ALL Crossbows.
Though I do sort of wish that weapon feats would extend their effect to all similar weapons. I really think that if you take a weapon feat, it should apply to all weapons in that weapon group (aka fighter weapon groups). But that is another discussion.
|
|
I think because the two barrel variety does say it is a musket; i.e. as if "musket" was a sub classification of two handed firearms, then it would apply to all sub class of muskets.There is a logical problem with this. If, for example, someone could get a feat called Rapid Reload (pistols) your logic would mean they could use it on ALL pistols, including things like dragon pistols and sword pistols who obviously don't function the same way as a standard pistol. ...
Logic?...you're making up a feat. No one can take Rapid Reload (pistols) because that choice feat as an open feat limits you to one specific weapon. Until the Devs specify that muskets really only mean the one musket, then it would mean all "muskets", imo. At least that seems a valid interpretation.
Armor proficiency light has a whole host of differenet armors that are very physically and functionly differently, but you get them all.
I will submit, that given the halfling ruling on slings, it will probably be changed to just the base musket.
Overall, I'm just happy with some sort of "gun" in the campaign; I like the variety and it relaly promotes diversity and imagination.
Just the basic musket - one extra 's' doesn't add the entire class of weapons.
Also, side note:
You have unlimited free actions in society play and thus could reload each barrel. It is a type of musket and is therefore a musket. Rapid reload (muskets) is as it says muskets and so it does apply to the Double barrel musket as well. Gm's cannot hard cap free actions in society play.
It seems this sort of opinion is what led to the recently rescinded FAQ. Rules up to GM interpretation are still up to GM interpretation when playing PFS (unless a society specific rule is in place of course).
If we are voting, I say All Muskets.
I think because the two barrel variety does say it is a musket; i.e. as if "musket" was a sub classification of two handed firearms, then it would apply to all sub class of muskets.There is a logical problem with this. If, for example, someone could get a feat called Rapid Reload (pistols) your logic would mean they could use it on ALL pistols, including things like dragon pistols and sword pistols who obviously don't function the same way as a standard pistol. ...Logic?...you're making up a feat. No one can take Rapid Reload (pistols) because that choice feat as an open feat limits you to one specific weapon. Until the Devs specify that muskets really only mean the one musket, then it would mean all "muskets", imo. At least that seems a valid interpretation.
Armor proficiency light has a whole host of differenet armors that are very physically and functionly differently, but you get them all.
I will submit, that given the halfling ruling on slings, it will probably be changed to just the base musket.
Overall, I'm just happy with some sort of "gun" in the campaign; I like the variety and it relaly promotes diversity and imagination.
Muskets means Muskets. That is the argument. Muskets does not mean Double-Barreled Muskets.
When something is called out specifically that is nowhere else refered to as a category of items, you have to assume that the thing being called out is an absolute, not a category.
If there was an Armor item called "Light Armor", then this same issue would exist with Light Armor Proficiency. But there is no issue here because Light Armor is specifically a category of items, not a singular item. There is already a category for Musket Double Barreled Musket Etc. They are Two-Handed Firearms.
Furthermore, there is already language used to explicitly call out similarly named weapons. See Weapon Familiarity traits. If the goal was to encompass all weapons with Musket in the name, they would have said so. Just like Dwarven Weapon Familiarity says "All weapons with Dwarven in the name".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Again, the problem here is that there is no item called "Bow". So manyshot must be referring to a group of items or a general term. I don't know what the Devs intended for Musket Master, but since there IS a specific item called "Musket" we start with that assumption.
Similarly, if there were a feat that applied specifically to "Longbow" we would have to assume from RAW that such a feat did not automatically include "Composite Longbow" initially. This is why they had to add the blurb under composite longbow to explicitly state that any feats or abilities that refer to a longbow can be used with a composite longbow. There is no such specificity applied to a double barreled musket.
It would be one thing if the book said that you could use feats, abilities, etc. with a double barreled or axe musket as if it were a musket, but that isn't the case.
FAQ'd
I do believe the question was asked incorrectly. I think the question should use as precedence 100% agreed upon rules rather than a FAQ a good portion of the PF populace disagrees with.
Instead of quoting the highly questionable Warslinger trait FAQ...
According to the recent FAQ on Halflings and reloading slings...
The question, and all the ones like it, should quote the everyone-agrees-with Manyshot feat.
Manyshot (Combat)
You can fire multiple arrows at a single target.Prerequisites: Dex 17, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both arrows hit. Apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attack. Damage bonuses from using a composite bow with a high Strength bonus apply to each arrow, as do other damage bonuses, such as a ranger's favored enemy bonus. Damage reduction and resistances apply separately to each arrow.
No where in the Manyshot feat does it say it applies to "longbows" or "shortbows", only that it applies to "bows".
However, everyone agrees that Manyshot works with longbows and shortbows.
Put me down into thinking Musket Masters can Rapid Reload all muskets.
Invalid comparison.
Manyshot is more comparable to, say, Weapon Finesse; it applies to specific weapons only, but it applies to multiple weapons (as defined in the feat itself - in this case, bows).
Rapid Reload is more comparable to something like Weapon Focus, which requires you to choose a specific weapon. And if we follow that route, we find that Weapon Focus requires you to choose a specific weapon and affects only that specific weapon; Weapon Focus (Shortsword) doesn't affect broadswords simply because they're both 'swords'.
Another argument for "only applies to the musket": It's a mythic level ability (feat) to get Rapid Reload for all firearms and crossbows; assuming that it applies to all types of muskets pushes the class ability into near-mythic category.