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My guess is its their lossy or poor interpolation image compression between the uncompressed image the cartographer gives them and the image in the book. The horrible map scaling is one of the reasons I quit running Paizo published modules.
If the Paizo crew want some examples:
Schloss Caromarc, Harrowstone, the gridylow caves on the island in Skull & Shackles book 1.
None of those, and all the others I've ever copied out of the pdfs, have a 1:1 ratio for X vs Y. Some will be 33x32, some 30x28, and the occasional 31x31, but trying to mesh them into something 100x100 or 50x50 just doesn't work with the maps in the pdfs as they currently are.
Have you considered enlarging the PDF of the map to the size you want, taking a screen-shot of your monitor (I don't recall the exact Windows command, it's something like Control-Print or the like), and then editing the Windows JPG file using GIMP or other free photo editing software?
The ease with which I could use Paizo's PDF maps in D20Pro is one of the things that weaned me back into gaming. I do have to spend a few minutes in Photoshop to convert the map squares' pixel width into whole numbers, but I only ever recall one map that gave me memorable issues with attaining the correct proportions.
(To note, I do appreciate that they quickly ended the practice of slicing large images into numerous smaller ones--using maps from the early days requires assembling them like a jigsaw puzzle.)
I don't know. I know that the "interactive" PDF maps tend to act wonky on my system so I usually don't even bother using them. I think it's the layers giving me issues. But you know something? I buy the Paizo APs because I like them. Then again, the only one I've bought via subscription (with PDFs) is Reign of Winter. With Runelords I picked up the print version... and the section of Jade I've got was also print only.
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My suggestion would be to wait until the weekend has finished and the staff get around to looking at this thread. The Paizo technical crew are pretty good at figuring out what you're trying to do, why it's not working and then suggesting ways to fix it.
I'd bet you any money that they have not made their maps deliberately bad so as to increase the value of their own VTT. My suggestion would be to wait for their response before reaching for those kinds of speculations - when paizo things dont work the way I'd want them to, there's always a good reason. (Even though the reason is sometimes "most people want something different than you do").
I have a solution. There is a spreadsheet file I found online awhile back. It is called Map Scale Tool. It has instruction that give you the calculations to resize your maps to be 1" x 1". It is in .xls format (Exel 97). Easily opened in OpenOffice.
Have you tried using the Align to Grid function in roll20? The only real thing you need to do is make sure the grids for the Paizo maps start at the edge of the map (which I believe they do). You go to the Advanced function, align to grid, select a 3x3 grid, and it resizes the map to fit.
I had lots of trouble getting the grid system on roll20 to work, and was getting quite frustrated. Then I just basically clicked the option that disables the click to grid. Players can then move there characters any which way they want and still keep on the map grid that came with the original PDF.
I have no idea how other VTT are set up, but maybe that is an option to pursue?
I found that stretching the map to get a reasonable similarity between the roll20 grid and the map grid, and then using alt+left click let me move the image independently of the grid already there makes it much easier to align the grid. I actually used that method to assemble the maps of the stolen lands presented in Kingmaker.
However if you have a map where the grid itself is inconsistent across the same image, I don't really know what to tell you.
I'm currently running the RotRL anniversary edition on roll20 and I haven't encountered any maps with the problem you describe above - could you name any of the maps you're having trouble with?
James, that may be because walls have thickness rather than being one-dimensional lines. If you have two corridors going right next to each other, they should not each be five feet thick. And paper-thin walls might work in a Japanese setting... but not in anyplace where the inhabitants don't want someone ripping through a wall because they're lazy or expect an ambush.
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Here is what I do for my PbP games, here on these boards. I am not sure exactly what issues people are having, but Paizo's products work great for me.
First, down load a free program called Fox It PDF Editor.
Right click on the PDF and select OPEN WITH -> Fox It
Find the page, picture, or map you want, and then click on it so that you have selected just the map (or picture), and you will see a black square around it with tiny black squares.
Press CTRL + C
Open up Paint, or similar Picture Editing programs, and Select NEW project.
Press CTRL + V
Modify as needed, as it will only copy the base map, but not any of the special DM only indicators such as trap locations, hidden doors, etc.
Save as a JPEG
I use Google Drive (Drawings), and it automatically has the grid.
PM me if you have any questions. :)
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I occasionally run into this problem myself.
If the VTT supports placing the map as an image that you can stretch along one axis, at least the VTT provides a way to solve the problem.
The maps that don't have consistent grids (non-square or not), like sub-maps with their own grids that have their own alignment, are real groaners. A basic graphics program should allow you to grab chunks of the map and slide them over a little so at least the grids line up on all sections of the map.
James, I'd really appreciate it if you showed or named one of the maps where you found that the grid changes size on the same map.
No offense, but at the moment I'm kind of thinking this is a PICNIC problem.
Here's a problem I ran into with roll20. If you're not in the Map tab, then you will download the map as a square icon that you can enlarge and the like but does not keep its dimensions. So you have to be on the proper layer in order for it to work properly. Of course I still don't know the ins and outs of roll20 (like how to allow players to move just their icon) but despite those limitations it's still handy (and heck, I'm tempted to use it for the tabletop group! Hook it up to the 42 inch TV...)
@Tangent
Let's say Bob is playing Kudaku the bard (because bards are awesome).
First you need to add Kudaku to the journal. Click 'add character', type in the name of the character (Kudaku).
There's an option in the same window called "can be edited and controlled by", here you select the player you want to control that character. In this case that'll be Bob.
Next, you find an appropriately awesome token for Kudaku the bard. Drop the token on the table.
Next you want to click the token--> click the little gear/wheel ---> there's a drop-down menu called "Represents Character" ---> select the appropriate character (Kudaku) in the menu.
If you follow that correctly then only Bob can move Kudaku.
In case that was more confusing than enlightening (and if so I don't blame you) then I'd suggest taking a look at the Roll20 tutorial.
Paizo and all other companies don't support VTTs, period. Once Paizo's own VTT comes up, they'll pretty much be the first first party company that will have to support the technology that many of us work with. I will grant though, that D20Pro seems to fix the map issues we all have.
I didn't refer to you as the problem, I stated that from what you're describing I'm not entirely sure if the problem is with the map in question - which is why I've asked a few times exactly what map it is you think has an inconsistent grid. That way I can take a look at the map myself and see if I can reverse engineer a fix for you.
The more information you give us, the better position we're in to try and help you solve your map problem :)
Huh. I import Paizo maps into MapTool all the time. While I do have to fiddle with resizing both the map and the gridscale a bit, I've never had a problem with them lining up correctly.
EDIT: Also, referring to someone as 'the problem' then asking that they not take offense makes little sense. I will react accordingly.
Accusing Paizo of deliberately doing something with their maps in some kind of nefarious conspiracy theory, just so their maps will magically work with the VTT they're working on also makes little sense. I hope they'll react accordingly.
I'm a firm believer in Occam's razor when it comes to problem solving.
If my options are:
A. Paizo's an evil corporation that intentionally sabotage their maps to "get" the VTT crowd.
B. Paizo's accidentally publishing maps so fundamentally flawed that they cannot be used in VTT.
C. The original poster is having an issue no one else in the thread or that I myself have encountered despite playing the same campaign on VTT (we're on book 3 atm). He is working with an inproper scan, he's using a misprinted map, and/or he's misapplying the software he is using to get the map aligned properly.
Then yes, I will explore option C before I launch a Starr investigation into Paizo's shady business dealings.
By PICNIC I meant that I think the issue you're having is at your end, not necessarily at paizo's end. The easiest way to find this out is to compare the options you're using, which is why I've asked three times now for the name/version of the map you're having this issue on.
All that said, I'm glad you found a solution and good luck with your campaign!
I've been pulling the maps out of the PDFs, resizing them in Photoshop, and using them with MapTool for years now. Every once in a while I get a map like you describe -- rows or columns will be very slightly narrower or wider across the map, making it impossible to consistently line up with a perfect grid.
On the other hand, having an imperfect grid which is 1-3 pixels off in a few places has never once, not even slightly, detracted from our game. And I should point out that we do USE that grid, running combats with all the positioning and line of sight rules. It's just not a game-stopping issue.
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I find it very odd that the OP and myself are the only ones who've consistently ran into the problem of the X:Y ratio not being 1:1. I've spent hours before trying to perfect the scale on a map to be able to pull into Maptool at a 100px grid, and eventually gave up when the best I can get is a 90% accurate re-sample.
I've tried doing a straight up measure/scale; a 2-axis measure/average/scale; a 4 sample measure/average/scale; and then done all three again after I've scaled it up 200% to increase the number of pixels so that I can absolutely hit the middle of the printed grid line. When I think I've got something good, I drop it into MT, and lo and behold, I've got a 1.5 grid width misalignment at the far end of the image. FWIW, depending on if its a flattened pdf or an image selectable one, I try to select, copy, paste rather than do a snippet or print screen. I've been known to even print a copy of the page to jpg and edit it if I can't select the map image itself in the pdf.
Perhaps I'm going about my approach all wrong, perhaps there's an easier way to do it, but Maptool and GIMP haven't been able to do much accurately with Paizo's maps for the four years I've been trying. Can all you folks in the "I don't know what you're talking about" camp describe your process so that I can see if there are any changes I need to make to be able to flow as smoothly as you guys seemingly are?
EDIT: and unless Roll20 can export back out a grid aligned image to Maptool, it is not an option.
Mostly I count the number of squares horizontally and vertically and type that number into Roll20 (which then fits the grid to the image size). Then I use alt+lclick to move the image so that the website grid and map grid line up. Then I turn Roll20's grid transparent. Note that this method will give you some inaccurate results if the map you start off with has partial grid squares, which most of Paizo's maps do. You'll either need to crop those lines away, or:
Option B: Simply paste the map to roll20, grab each end of the image and stretch it till the website grid lines and the map's lines match. It's messier and if your map has a low resolution it can turn up ugly.
I started using VTT back in december and I used to swear my way through map grid lineup for hours straight trying to get it right, now I can usually have it sorted in 30 seconds or less. It's really all about experience and figuring out what works for you.
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I find it very odd that the OP and myself are the only ones who've consistently ran into the problem of the X:Y ratio not being 1:1. I've spent hours before trying to perfect the scale on a map to be able to pull into Maptool at a 100px grid, and eventually gave up when the best I can get is a 90% accurate re-sample...
Here's what I do in MapTool...
1) Select the map from the Paizo PDF, right-click, and select "Save As..." and then save the file in the appropriate sub-folder in my MapTool images folder.
2) In MapTool, I select the Objects tool, switch to the Background layer, then drag in the map as a full-size image.
3) I turn on Show Grid to overlay the build-in grid on top of the image file.
4) I use the Adjust Grid setting to lower the grid size to be roughly the same as that of the map's grid. I just eyeball it.
5) Once I've found a grid setting that's in the right ballpark, I line up the map so that the topmost and leftmost visible grid marker in the image is in line with a MapTool gridline.
6) I grab the right side of the image file and drag it left or right so that the squares in the image match the distance in the MapTool vertical gridlines. Then, reposition the image so that the MapTool gridlines overlay the vertical lines in the image.
7) Do the same thing with the bottom of the image so that the squares match the horizontal gridlines.
That's it! Takes about five minutes per map. And no math required.
... Can all you folks in the "I don't know what you're talking about" camp describe your process so that I can see if there are any changes I need to make to be able to flow as smoothly as you guys seemingly are?
Well, as I pointed out, I actually HAVE seen this happen, but not very often and I guess not to the completely unworkable degree that you've experienced.
I select the image of the map in the PDF, copy it, and paste it into a blank Photoshop document. Then I lay a grid over the image for reference (I generally use a 64px per square). I blow up the image until it's pretty close to right, and then I make very small adjustments until the map grid matches the overlay grid.
Every once in a while I get a map where the space between gridlines is not consistent, and there's no way to make the map match up perfectly across its entire length. But the discrepancy is never more than a few pixels here and there.
If you give an example of a particular map that has given you a lot of trouble, I'll pop it into PS and see if I experience anything similar.
I find it very odd that the OP and myself are the only ones who've consistently ran into the problem of the X:Y ratio not being 1:1. I've spent hours before trying to perfect the scale on a map to be able to pull into Maptool at a 100px grid, and eventually gave up when the best I can get is a 90% accurate re-sample...Here's what I do in MapTool...
1) Select the map from the Paizo PDF, right-click, and select "Save As..." and then save the file in the appropriate sub-folder in my MapTool images folder.
2) In MapTool, I select the Objects tool, switch to the Background layer, then drag in the map as a full-size image.
3) I turn on Show Grid to overlay the build-in grid on top of the image file.
4) I use the Adjust Grid setting to lower the grid size to be roughly the same as that of the map's grid. I just eyeball it.
5) Once I've found a grid setting that's in the right ballpark, I line up the map so that the topmost and leftmost visible grid marker in the image is in line with a MapTool gridline.
6) I grab the right side of the image file and drag it left or right so that the squares in the image match the distance in the MapTool vertical gridlines. Then, reposition the image so that the MapTool gridlines overlay the vertical lines in the image.
7) Do the same thing with the bottom of the image so that the squares match the horizontal gridlines.
That's it! Takes about five minutes per map. And no math required.
This is just the advice I needed. I've had a lot of issues with map grids not lining up in MapTool and I wasn't aware you could do this. (I've always just loaded up the map background as part of creating a new map, rather than placing it as an image.) Thanks!
To the OP, I've had your problem quite a lot, so no you are not alone. I believe Paizo's response to this in the past is that they make their product with the print copy in mind, not as much the PDF or 3rd party products that use the PDF resources like VTTs.
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Haladir, that seems to be a lot easier and quicker than how I've gone about it. I'll give it a try.
If you give an example of a particular map that has given you a lot of trouble, I'll pop it into PS and see if I experience anything similar.
Schloss Caromarc (Trial of the Beast) stands out in my memory as the worst offender, though I also had trouble with a number of the other maps in Carrion Crown. When I ran Trial for my group, I'm pretty sure I just made the map grid really small and did 1 foot per square since I couldn't get it to work via scaling in GIMP. If I'm able to mess around with my stuff at home tonight, I'll get you a few more examples.
I understand the frustration caused by some of the methods of map/image extraction from our products. Others have indicated that you can copy/paste the images out of the products themselves. We've made it standard in our process to be sure that map tags are no longer a flattened part of the map images to make this less invasive for those using them for VTTs/personal use. We would like people to be able to simply copy/paste out of the Interactive Maps. However, this function is limited by the software that Adobe currently has available, and so interactivity and the ability to copy/paste are sadly mutually exclusive.
In terms of grids being used on the maps, this is part of why a version without grids is provided in the Interactive Maps file. We cannot predict the way that each VTT will handle grids.
If you find specific issues with a map in a product (IE: flattened map tags or related wonkiness), or an Interactive Maps file, you can let us know via the Website Feedback forum or emailing me directly at chris.lambertz@paizo.com.
I don't have access to the book Schloss Caromarc is in, so I googled it - I believe I have found the right map? I apologize in advance if I'm not supposed to link to paizo material, this is used purely for troubleshooting.
With a bit of adjustment using the method I outlined above I got it to line up perfectly to Roll20's (quarter size) grid across the board, I couldn't find any sections on the map that did not line up with the rest of the grid. The resolution I wound up using was 760w x 945h. As long as you keep the ratio between these two numbers the same you should be able to inflate or deflate the resolution as necessary.
It should be noted that the map itself is missing parts of the final grid squares. You could crop those away with GIMP to make the lineup easier.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Here's what I do in MapTool...
1) Select the map from the Paizo PDF, right-click, and select "Save As..." and then save the file in the appropriate sub-folder in my MapTool images folder.
2) In MapTool, I select the Objects tool, switch to the Background layer, then drag in the map as a full-size image.
3) I turn on Show Grid to overlay the build-in grid on top of the image file.
4) I use the Adjust Grid setting to lower the grid size to be roughly the same as that of the map's grid. I just eyeball it.
5) Once I've found a grid setting that's in the right ballpark, I line up the map so that the topmost and leftmost visible grid marker in the image is in line with a MapTool gridline.
6) I grab the right side of the image file and drag it left or right so that the squares in the image match the distance in the MapTool vertical gridlines. Then, reposition the image so that the MapTool gridlines overlay the vertical lines in the image.
7) Do the same thing with the bottom of the image so that the squares match the horizontal gridlines.
That's it! Takes about five minutes per map. And no math required.
Thanks for this. I'm going to have to give it a try. I've just been saving the maps as png files and using "new map" to import them, then fighting with Adjust grid to get something mostly ok.
It is annoying when there are multiple parts of the same map with different scales, or when the grid "restarts" or realigns somewhere in the middle.
I've run into the non-square grids several times as well. Just this past week, I encountered it yet again with the "Bastards of Erebus Lair" (AP 25, pg 37). Mind you, rather than scanning or taking a screenshot of the page, I use Some PDF Image Extract to export the images to PNG format, so it shouldn't be a PEBKAC error.
While the inconsistencies are annoying, it's so much faster to rescale a existing map than to create a brand new one that I usually don't fuss over it. In fact, the only reason I'm replying at all is to let the OP know that he is not imagining things... well, at least not on the map-scaling being off anyway — I can't speak on the conspiracy theories. ;)
Non-square grids I don't really have a problem with - that's easy to adjust for. It does take a little longer to make it line up properly though.
However, I believe the OP is talking about maps where the map grid is not internally consistent - on one end of the map a grid square could be 35x35 pixels and on the other end of the same map a grid square would be 37x35 pixels.
If you create a map for a group of users who are more and more using VTTs, would it not be really cool if the grid you supply on your maps is actually SQUARE, and CONSISTENTLY SQUARE across the entire map? I'm not even asking for a standard grid size (50x50 or similar) - just a consistent grid.
At least, that's how I read it.
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Non-square grids I don't really have a problem with - that's easy to adjust for. It does take a little longer to make it line up properly though.
However, I believe the OP is talking about maps where the map grid is not internally consistent - on one end of the map a grid square could be 35x35 pixels and on the other end of the same map a grid square would be 37x35 pixels.
If you create a map for a group of users who are more and more using VTTs, would it not be really cool if the grid you supply on your maps is actually SQUARE, and CONSISTENTLY SQUARE across the entire map? I'm not even asking for a standard grid size (50x50 or similar) - just a consistent grid.At least, that's how I read it.
From what I'm understanding, his complaint is that cell A1 has slightly different dimensions than say, A2, B1, C45, F99, ETC. My example of being 1.5 grid widths off on the other end comes from doing samples on dimensions too close together (likely) or having too small of a sample size, as opposed to a consistent 2px X-axis increase over the course of the map.
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I used to run through a complicated measure-and-resize process to get the maps to a whole number of pixels per square to use them in MapTool, but have switched to the following (which is similar, but not quite the same as at least one other person above):
1. Extract from PDF, usually using the GIMP. Save as png.
2. Create new map in MapTool. Leave pixels per square at default. (50 I think?)
3. Drag png into Background layer.
4. Turn on grid.
5. Resize map token to match built-in grid. (Yes, his usually requires making it absolutely HUGE, but I like having the grid resolution at default so I can have finer resolution drawings/VBL.) This usually entails resizing the image to roughly match square sizes, moving it so the most upper-left grid line intersection in the image lines up with the MapTool grid, then fine-tuning the image size until the grid lines match up fairly closely.
From what I'm understanding, his complaint is that cell A1 has slightly different dimensions than say, A2, B1, C45, F99, ETC. My example of being 1.5 grid widths off on the other end comes from doing samples on dimensions too close together (likely) or having too small of a sample size, as opposed to a consistent 2px X-axis increase over the course of the map.
If that was the problem, then wouldn't sizing the map manually (by dragging till it lines up) create the same consistencies?
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From what I'm understanding, his complaint is that cell A1 has slightly different dimensions than say, A2, B1, C45, F99, ETC. My example of being 1.5 grid widths off on the other end comes from doing samples on dimensions too close together (likely) or having too small of a sample size, as opposed to a consistent 2px X-axis increase over the course of the map.If that was the problem, then wouldn't sizing the map manually (by dragging till it lines up) create the same consistencies?
probably
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Non-square grids I don't really have a problem with - that's easy to adjust for. It does take a little longer to make it line up properly though.
However, I believe the OP is talking about maps where the map grid is not internally consistent - on one end of the map a grid square could be 35x35 pixels and on the other end of the same map a grid square would be 37x35 pixels.
I think you read it correctly, but experience has taught me it's largely a non-issue... from a functionality standpoint that is.
While my inner OCD demons might rage about it, the varying inconsistencies in cell sizing are much easier to work with than the non-square cells. I've found that if the overall sizing has already been adjusted per one of the methods mentioned above, the map will still be perfectly functional in the VTT. The trick is one of perception.
The 'fix' is to set grid display in the VTT to off and instead look at the grid already printed on the map.
So long as you keep grid snap turned on and the map extents calculate out to what should result in square grid cells, the remaining variations won't be dramatic enough to prevent accurate token movement, or the drawing of spell AoEs, etc.
Remember, we shouldn't spend hours trying to perfect a published map our players are going to steamroll thru and never revisit — that's time better spent making original maps. Perfecting map fidelity should be Paizo's goal, making things workable is the GM's.
I find it very odd that the OP and myself are the only ones who've consistently ran into the problem of the X:Y ratio not being 1:1. I've spent hours before trying to perfect the scale on a map to be able to pull into Maptool at a 100px grid, and eventually gave up when the best I can get is a 90% accurate re-sample...Here's what I do in MapTool...
1) Select the map from the Paizo PDF, right-click, and select "Save As..." and then save the file in the appropriate sub-folder in my MapTool images folder.
2) In MapTool, I select the Objects tool, switch to the Background layer, then drag in the map as a full-size image.
3) I turn on Show Grid to overlay the build-in grid on top of the image file.
4) I use the Adjust Grid setting to lower the grid size to be roughly the same as that of the map's grid. I just eyeball it.
5) Once I've found a grid setting that's in the right ballpark, I line up the map so that the topmost and leftmost visible grid marker in the image is in line with a MapTool gridline.
6) I grab the right side of the image file and drag it left or right so that the squares in the image match the distance in the MapTool vertical gridlines. Then, reposition the image so that the MapTool gridlines overlay the vertical lines in the image.
7) Do the same thing with the bottom of the image so that the squares match the horizontal gridlines.
That's it! Takes about five minutes per map. And no math required.
Just dotting this so I don't lose it again!